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#1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Hello!
I have recently been rereading HoME, and two passages from The Lays of Beleriand caught my attention. First one, from The Lay of the Children of Húrin: "There wondrous wove he words of sharpness, and the names of knives and Gnomish blades he uttered o'er it: even Ogbar's spear and the glaive of Gaurin whose gleaming stroke did rive the rocks of Rodrim's hall; the sword of Saithnar, and the silver blades of the enchanted children of chains forgéd in their deep dungeon; the dirk of Nargil, the knife of the North in Nogrod smithied; the sweeping sickle of the slashing tempest, the lambent lightning's leaping falchion even Celeg Aithorn that shall cleave the world." And the second one, from The Lay of Leithian: "...of steel and torment. Names she sought, and sang of Glend the sword of Nan; of Gilim the giant of Eruman; and last and longest..." Does anyone have any idea of what be those names: Ogbar, Nargil, Gaurin, Rodrim, Saithnar, Celeg Aithorn, Glend, Nan, Gilim? I mean, what are your thoughts on who these characters and items might be? Are they simply random names Tolkien created without any substance, or do you think there might be more to them? I am aware that the names of the giants Gilim and Nan might be more metaphorical, in that they are representations of winter and summer respectively. But Ogbar, Nargil, etc. I simply cannot shoehorn into any specific category of races, peoples, items, ... Any thoughts?
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#2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Brilliant thread!
Alliteration plays a part in the choice of letters, of course, but I don't think Tolkien was generally random in his choices. Or something might come to him randomly, perhaps, but then I think he once said/wrote that he would then 'find out' what it meant ... perhaps like when he wrote down 'In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit' (of which he later said 'I did not and do not know why.') Christopher Tolkien said on the Film Portrait Of JRR Tolkien that when his father wanted a word, he wouldn't just select a collection of letters that appealed to him, he would think what that word would be, then work out the sound-changes it would undergo through time.
But regarding placing the names you cite above in a people or culture, I can't think of anything specific for the moment, except that Ogbar is ringing vague Old English bells for me ... but that might simply be due to the nature of the verse, the fact that he has a spear, the mention of all the weapons, the violent verbs and the reference to a hall ... all of which make me think of Beowulf.
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"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." Last edited by Pervinca Took; 08-27-2015 at 06:21 AM. |
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#3 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Alliteration is a factor in the choosing of the names of course, but it's rare for Tolkien to use broken references that are TRULY broken. I mean, whenever he mentions certain characters, items, events, etc. fleetingly without any other mention of them inside a text, there is almost always something written about them outside of the text in which they are mentioned, or at least he has an idea inside his head to what those names should refer to.
For example, when Elrond mentions Hador, Túrin and Beren in The Lord of the Rings the reader doesn't know (at least those readers before The Silmarillion was published back in 1977) anything about who these characters were, yet since the name of Beren, for example, hales all the way back to The Book of Lost Tales, written many decades before The Lord of the Rings was published, the character of Beren is very much present, and fleshed out in Tolkien's mind. The names I mentioned in the original post are, as far as I can remember, the only such cases in his writings. Naturally, considering their only appearance is in the form of a name invoked in a spell, nothing for certain can be told about who and what they might be, but speculate we can. You brought an interesting point about the etymology, too. As languages are not my forte, I cannot say much in that respect. All replies are more than welcome!
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#4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I can't remember which of the Lays of Beleriand Tolkien actually finished (if any). Could it simply be that he ended up changing the names later when he wrote the stories in prose form (where/if certain versions of the tales in prose were written after the verse ones) and never went back to finish the verse, so those names didn't end up having a proper backstory? Do any of the above names have sort of 'equivalent' characters in other versions of the tale?
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#5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Remember however that a great deal of the "history" was a later ret-con; when Tolkien wrote Chapter II he had no idea what Gil-Galad's story was (and never really wrote any more of it than what Gandalf says there, and Sam's fragment of a poem); the cats of Queen Beruthiel were finally explained- in Tolkien's own mind - long years after the writing of the Moria chapter where Aragorn mentions them.
It's kind of remarkable to think that when Tolkien finished the main narrative of the LR, hardly any of the history even of the Third Age yet existed.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#6 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Another character that comes to my mind at this very moment is Torhir Ifant, the author of Dorgannas Iaur, mentioned in The War of the Jewels, but he at least has some semblance of background to him.
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#7 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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As for the 'equivalent' characters...well...I don't know. I wouldn't really wager that Ogbar's spear is Aeglos, and that Ogbar is an alter-ego of Gil-galad, but there was an interesting theory I heard somewhere (I can't remember where) concerning Celeg Aithorn, the legendary sword mentioned in the Lay of the Children of Húrin. It states that it is not an actual sword, but rather a lightning, wielded by Manwë. A bit too deep in the crackpot zone for my taste, but hey, something's better than nothing.
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#8 |
Animated Skeleton
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Nan is mentioned in Christopher Tolkien's commentary to the Tale of Beren and Luthien in the Book of Lost Tales. He is described as a "summer giant" in the shape of an elm.
Notes at the end of the BOLT suggest Earendil was supposed to meet "tree giants" during his journey, (which was supposed to be an epic odyssey including many fantastical concepts that never were mentioned again and leading to him battling Ungoliant before finally finding Valinor. The whole thing sounds like proto-Ents. The Rodrim was the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond in "Turamba and the Fealoke" that as before Nargothrond itself had a name. Last edited by Orphalesion; 09-03-2015 at 12:43 AM. |
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#9 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Good catch. But the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond was rodothlim as far as I can remember. On the other hand, Tolkien did change, for example, Gondothlim to Gondolindrim, and since the Lays postdate the Lost Tales, it could be that he changed Rodothlim to Rodrim (like Gondothlim to Gondolindrim) Could Nan and Gilim be ents? (though I'm not really sure that an ent would need a sword (Glend))
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#10 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Problem there is that the LTs' primitive "caves of the Rodothlim" evolved in the Turin poem into the great fortress of Nargothrond, a new conception with a new name; Rodothlim or variants thereof disappeared. I would use Nargothrim.
(the element (g)rod (from *groto "cave, tunnel") survived into late Sindarin, as in Nogrod and Menegroth, but I doubt generic "cave-dwellers" would have been applied to Finrod's folk).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#11 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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I think Halbarad got a bad break. One of those characters you'd wish to know more about.
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#12 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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But while we're at it - the names "Rodothlim" and "Rodrim" bear a remarkable similarity - one would even think that the name "Rodrim" replaced that of "Rodothlim" at that stage of the writing (or maybe Tolkien was playing with the idea, although I've found no mention of any of the names in the "whetting spell" of Beleg, as CT remarks also). Again - I noticed the similarity between "gondothLIM" and "rodothLIM" AND "gondolindRIM" and "rodRIM" - last parts of the names indicate belonging to a certain place, city, region, etc. There is one more thing: Quote:
P.S. Well, I don't want to sound as a narcissistic buffoon, but who ever knows about Ogbar, Celeg Aithorn, Torhir Ifant, etc. I think one could safely (relatively) assume that he's head is buried under a pile of Tolkien related books. ![]()
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#13 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Additionally, the savior of the world receives little to no mention - Borondir - The Rider of Last Hope - without him Sauron would have surely prevailed. Tal-Elmar is an interesting character too, as well as Borlas and Saelon in "The New Shadow" Bladorthin I don't have to even mentioned.
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#14 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Most likely Tolkien simply replaced the early collective-plural ending -thlim with -rim, -drim (*rimbe, 'host, folk'). The latter of course is very familiar: Rohirrim, Onodrim, Haradrim etc etc.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 09-09-2015 at 11:02 AM. |
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#15 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I'm not sure when did he introduce that change, but in any case the Lays are from the twenties (later than BoLT). It might be that at that time he introduce the change, though I have to look on the texts to be sure.
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#16 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Another thing crossed my mind.
Who are the Ythlings from Aelfwine of England in The Book of Lost Tales: Part II They have always puzzled me! Where are they: the Azores, Madeira, Jan Mayen, Iceland, Bermuda, somewhere inside the confines of the Guarded Realm??? More importantly: WHO THE HELL are they? Men, Elves, Dwarves, Ainur, something else...Hobbits ![]()
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#17 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Another thing: may hap Ogbar, Saithnar, Nargil, Rodrim and Gaurin are the names of PLACES instead of characters?
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#18 | |
Animated Skeleton
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Id oubt Nan and Gilim are Ents. The Ents were only invented when Tolkien wrote the LOTR. That's why I wrote proto-Ents and even here I made a little mistake. I miss-remembered Earendil meeting "tree people" and "Nan the summer giant who is like an elm" as Earendil meeting "tree giants and Nan, who is like an elm" So Earendil met Tree People, not Tree Giants True! We should like open a thread in Middle Earth mirth were we brainstorm theories about these names and how to fit them into the later mythology. |
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#19 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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And besides, we are already brainstorming theories here ![]()
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#20 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Hahahahahaha....I just thought of Tim, the "nuncle" of Tom Bombadil, lol.
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#21 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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And what about The Hunter (or The Rider) from the legends of the early days of the Quendi - kidnapping them and taking them to Utumno. Who might be those?
And Gostir, a dragon never again mentioned by Tolkien?
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#22 |
Overshadowed Eagle
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I love this thread.
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So what have we learnt? Well... I think I'm onto something with Narcil = Angrist, and the idea that the first few swords are evil blades rings true (Luthien invokes Draugluin and Glaurung in her spell, so there's precedent). Other than that, probably not a whole lot. But it was fun!* hS *For me, at least. ^_^ |
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Celeg Aithorn: Is it realy not fitting the legends of Middle-earth that Manwë’s sword ‘shall cleave the world’? Four quotes come to mind that at least would hint in the same direction: The first pair are from a relative late sources. Unfinished Tales; Part Four; Chapter II: The Istari:
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HoME; volume 10: Morgoth’s Ring; Part Five: Myths Transformed: Quote:
But with my next pair I will open an alternative in which still the world is destroyed by Manwë’s sword but not by him: HoME; volume 1: The Book of Lost Tales, part 1; Chapter VIII: The Tale of the Sun and Moon: Quote:
And even so I know well that the combination of source so fare separated in the time of composition is critical, none the less we hear about that selfsame character in a late source. HoME; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; Part Two: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; The Last Chapters: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#24 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
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I take all my doubts back. Celeg Aithorn is the Sword of Manwe, and with it the Elder King will at the last bring Arda to its doom. If we translate the name into late Sindarin, we get something close to 'Heledh Aethorn'; there's no direct cognate to 'aith', but it's related to the various words for sharpness that end up as 'aeg'. The example of Heledh+morn -> Helevorn tells us that consonants can drop out when compounds are formed, and 'Aegthorn' would definitely offend the elven lámatyávë sensibilities. The Quenya form of the name, which does have a direct descendent of 'aith', would be 'Calca Ectesorno'. It's worth noting that aith/eket are etymologically related to thorns and other sharp points; the most poetic English name for this blade would be the Crystal Talon. hS |
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#25 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help? |
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#26 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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hS |
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#27 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help? |
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#28 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Boy howdy, would I love to!
So there's a beautiful document in HoME X: Morgoth's Ring called the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth', or often just the Athrabeth. The title means 'The Debate of Finrod and Andreth', and it's exactly what it says on the tin: a discussion between Finrod, King of Nargothrond, and Andreth, wise-woman of House Beor (she's Beren's great-aunt). They talk about a lot of things: Andreth shares a story from House Marach which claims the Secondborn weren't meant to die, Finrod talks about his vision of Arda Remade, and they discuss a mortal legend which sounds suspiciously like Jesus (poetically named the Old Hope). It's a wonderful example of Tolkien running through the philosophy of his Legendarium, and is one of the few finished pieces not published in one of the non-HoME books. They also talk about Andreth's relationship with Aegnor, Finrod's younger brother. It turns somewhat into a discussion of the differing natures of their kindreds, but running through it is (I think) some of the most heartbreaking romantic writing Tolkien ever did. There's no way I can do it justice except to quote it at length: Quote:
What's interesting about this story is that it not only serves as an opposite of Beren and Luthien's relationship (where their fates ended up not sundered) - it also serves as a mirror to the likes of Aldarion and Erendis. Here, though Andreth is bitter, she also still loves Aegnor with all her heart - and every indication is that he still loves her, too. The other failed relationships in Tolkien came about because one party hated the other, or at least grew weary of them; this is one of the few which was broken entirely by the Marring. And... I love Finrod's closing blessing. Unlike the claims of all the major religions of our day - including most emphatically Tolkien's own Catholicism - he doesn't know what awaits Andreth, and so he offers that beautiful benediction: "You are not for Arda. Whither you go - may you find light." hS |
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#29 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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they're fantastic things to read. I found the comments about making children most interesting. I always saw the Second Born as having been Gifted with Death. I wonder, than from the comment if that was in anticipation of the Second Making, and given the Marring of Arda.
I don't have the book you cite, but I've heard it's an authoritative tome. I have to get the Fall of Gondolin as well. Cheers, and thanks Ivriniel
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A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help? |
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#30 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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![]() I've often recommended Morgoth's Ring as the best of the History books to get, and the presence of the Athrabeth is one of the reasons why. (The other is LaCE - the Laws and Customs of the Eldar.) hS |
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#31 | |
Animated Skeleton
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“Nargil” sounds as though it should mean “fire-star” in Elvish. |
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