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#1 | ||
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,316
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The conspiracy just doesn't work!
Starting my millionth re-read oF LR, and got up to Ch 5 "A Conspiracy Unmasked."
It seems that bounum Homerus dormitat. As meticulous as Tolkien was about timing and schedules (He rewrote a huge chunk of Book V just because he thought the Grey Company was riding improbably fast, and I doubt a single reader has ever noticed), here his timeline just doesn't make sense. Here's what Merry has to say: Quote:
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Here's the problem: Gandalf arrived in Hobbiton late on April 12th. His long conversation with Frodo was the following morning: here Frodo learned for the very first time about the Ring, Sauron, etc. And at the end of that conversation Gandalf caught Sam eavesdropping and put the fear of grass-snakes in him. But we are supposed to believe both that Sam dummied up "on parole," but Merry, Pippin and Fatty also learned the primary topics of that conversation? Summat doan sum up.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#2 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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My understanding was that until that moment the Conspiracy was not quite sure, but they were able to pin down the source of the Baggins mysteries. They list a number of facts they based their hypothesis on:
So they could piece together that Bilbo must have brought something back that enabled him to pull off the disappearing trick. Given that Gandalf traveled with Bilbo and was a close friend - and generally knew a lot more about magic stuff - they probably were in a state of heightened alertness during his visits. Is it so unnatural for Sam to be listening in when Gandalf came to spill the beans? I bet you they'd be trying to bug Gandalf since they started the Conspiracy.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#3 |
Dead Serious
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It certainly seems to be possible that Merry is confidently overstating the exact fullness of the Conspirators' knowledge. He doesn't actually say what Gandalf told Frodo, only that they know it (leaving open the distinct possibility that they don't actually know) and he sort of contradicts it anyway, right away, when he says, "We know a great deal about the Ring."
"A great deal" sounds to me not unlike a euphemism for "something, but not everything"--i.e. Merry is puffing up their knowledge just a touch. After all, he *is* clever enough to put together the pieces, and Frodo certainly hasn't been as tight-lipped as Sam (he needn't just have been whispering about "shall I ever see that valley again" since April)--and a little bit of overconfidence is not out of character for Book I Meriadoc: the same Merry who thinks cutting through the Old Forest is an excellent short cut and who thinks a walk in the dark in a strange town full of Men is a good idea less than 24 hours after being rescued from the Barrow-Wight. That's the "we can make it work" approach. In a post a few months ago in the CbC thread for this chapter, I think I had the same suspicion you've just voiced.
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#4 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Quote:
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I agree too that they didn't know as much as perhaps Frodo understood them to mean. But they did know or at least suspect "a great deal" of what mattered and made a difference. It doesn't really matter what exactly is the Ring, how it was made, and where it has to go. What matters it that it explains the Baggins disappearance mystery, Gandalf's visits and more than just friendly concern, Frodo's odd behaviour, and that it's time for Frodo's friends to step up and "show their quality". They are overly adventurous hobbits, but they are still hobbits and their concerns are still limited to hobbit stuff. Certainly Merry is in part exaggerating, but I think he really believes his exaggeration because for a hobbit, what more is there to know?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Ahh, but Merry also mentions the Enemy. Where did he learn about HIM? Not even the well-educated Frodo knew about him before his little Talk with Gandalf.
Also, what was the "lot of information" that Sam collected before he was "finally" caught? That's a bit like saying "Vasa did a lot of fighting before it was finally sunk."
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#6 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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Oh, that part. My understanding was that Sam did report that last chunk of information but went mum since. You're right, it is an assumption I've been making, presumably to explain this contradiction. It's how I read the text, but I guess the text itself does not explain this.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 | |
Dead Serious
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I suppose it might depend when Sam made his last "report." We know that, on the day he was caught, Gandalf told Frodo about the Ring.
But we also know, from the same chapter: Quote:
Again, this is possible--maybe not likely, but it's certainly possible that Pippin could have been at the Green Dragon the night before for that purpose, Tookland being quite close, or any of the conspirators, really. Speaking of whom, I know that Folco Boffin is really just a name-shadow of Hobbits from the earlier drafts, but he's listed as one of Frodo's friends of as much closeness as Fatty--why isn't he in the conspiracy? Is he just one point shy of levelling up to that? In other words, why these specific four: Frodo's two closest friends, his gardener, and their most timid, creature-comfortly friend? There are no (obvious) canonical answers, but fertile ground for speculation--or fanfiction?
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#8 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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When we are rankly speculating, we can invent any excuse!
![]() Maybe Folco was a blabbermouth and they couldn't trust him to keep the secret.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#9 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
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I think Merry as son of the Master probably was quite well educated though not in the was Frodo was like Bilbo. While most hobbit books were genealogical, anything that wasn’t, was most likely at Great Smials or Brandy Hall. We know he bothered to look at maps and so forth and that Bucklanders were less insular than most. That said, this issue has puzzled me before.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#10 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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To put it another way: Hobbits set a great deal by contracts. Sam had a contract of sorts with the Conspiracy, which he ended once he was discovered. However, to refuse to hand over work already done under the contract at the time of cancellation would be not just to end the contract, but to breach it. I can very easily imagine Sam squirming in front of the eager Merry and Pippin, saying something like, "And, well... that was when Mister Gandalf caught me, if you take my meaning - by the ear, it was. And it, it don't seem right telling anything they said after that. Meaning no offense, Mister Merry, but the Master's taken me into his confidence now, and I'm not about to break that without his say-so." After which no amount of prodding will get another word out of him. hS |
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#11 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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still doesn't work
Quote:
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#12 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
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Quote:
Ian Holm's Frodo says 'But stories are told of Sauron's fall, long, long ago,' but that was probably an alteration, made to make it more of a conversation and load Gandalf with a little less exposition.
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"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." Last edited by Pervinca Took; 12-11-2019 at 12:14 PM. |
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