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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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With this chapter, we finish our discussion of Book 5! The narrative is taken up to the very final point, keeping the (first-time) reader in suspense before going back to catch up on the events concerning Frodo, Sam and Gollum in Book 6.
Interestingly, the account begins from the point of view of one character who does not go along. Merry must stay in Minas Tirith, still in need of healing, and feels horribly alone when all his friends leave. I find one detail interesting; here - and later at the Black Gate - Pippin is called "Peregrin" by Aragorn! That happens so seldom that it is noteworthy; I should think it's because of the 'official' role he plays here, as the only representative of the Shire and of his people. The beginning also has one of those curious turns of phrase that sounds funny to us nowadays, though it was certainly not meant so; it has inspired some cartoon drawings that show Aragorn, Gandalf, the Dúnedain and Elrond's sons - in a van! ![]() Rereading the passages describing the troops' journey to the Black Gate, I was conscious of details that I didn't remember from previous readings: the happenings at Osgiliath and the Crossroads, the debate about attacking Minas Morgul first, and the Orc/Easterling ambush. Nature and the weather are again described in ways that make them seem almost like living characters. Once more Aragorn shows his excellent character and leadership ability in his handling of the men who are too afraid to carry on. He shows pity, not anger, and does not shame them, giving them "a manful deed within their measure" to accomplish. Not everyone in Middle-earth is a hero. The central scene is the encounter with the Mouth of Sauron. The changes Peter Jackson made to this scene in the RotK EE DVD make the book passage all the more interesting! First of all, we are told that he is an ambassador. What do you make of the description of his horse? Is it a Horse-Wraith? We are told of his nature and background, at least enough to make discussions on that topic interesting. I think the way Aragorn stands up to him, battling him with only his eyes, is much stronger than the movie's decapitation. Do you remember your first reading of this passage? Did you despair when Frodo's possessions were displayed? To see even Gandalf seemingly falter must have been the worst thing for those with him. Do you think he realized that Sauron would have acted differently if he had already possessed the Ring? Or would he still have toyed with his enemies? Gandalf shows his strength briefly in taking the tokens from the Mouth of Sauron, but even then, there is no violence on his part. Yet the enemy ambassador fears him, Aragorn, and the Captains! Why? Aragorn and his army prepare for battle - despite being so obviously outnumbered, they will not give up without a fight. After reading most of the passage as told by a neutral narrator, we return to a Hobbit point of view at the end of the chapter - Pippin's. It's interesting that he mentions understanding Denethor better at that point. Yet he stands up and fights despite his despair. He is given his opportunity for an heroic deed, killing the troll, though that causes his own fall. Did you think him dead when you first read this passage? For those final moments, he is not speaking or even thinking himself - his thought appears to have become independent of him! It ends with a deja vu - the coming of the Eagles, and the thought of Bilbo, connecting this story with The Hobbit. What significance do you think that has? I've only touched on what this chapter holds - which parts do you find most interesting? Which affect you the most powerfully?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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This chapter divides up into three sections - the journey to the gate, the confrontation with the Mouth of Sauron & the attack on the Gondorians/Rohirrim by Sauron’s forces seen mainly from Pippin’s point of view.
During the journey east to the Gates three things stand out for me. First is the episode at the Crossroads: Quote:
Yet, it doesn’t seem like a waste of time & effort in the context- it seems exactly the sort of thing that they ought to do & in many ways it is part of the task they have set themselves. They are marching out to defy Sauron & play their part, not simply in defeating him, but in removing all traces of him from Middle-earth. Also, & maybe more importantly, it is a symbolic ‘coronation’ of the king - in fact it is a restoration of the king. It is yet another act of defiance, of provocation, on the part of Aragorn. Not long after this provocation is emphasised: Quote:
Next, we have Aragorn sending away those too terrified to go on: Quote:
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Yet...Sauron does not have the Ring & suspects that Aragorn may have it, so why the elaborate game? Why would he send his servant out to offer the release of Frodo if the West surrenders? Precisely because he doesn’t know for certain that Aragorn has it. This is a test. Back Aragorn into a corner & force him to show his hand. If he has the Ring he will tell Sauron where to get off as far as surrender is concerned. On the other hand, if he does surrender that will confirm beyond doubt that Aragorn does not have the Ring (at least that would be Sauron’s take on things. Wisely, Aragorn does not speak to confirm or deny, but he does use his greater ‘will’ to daunt the Mouth - an ambiguous action which neither confirms nor denies Sauron’s suspicions. Quote:
The Mouth is an interesting figure. He is not a monster but a man: Quote:
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Some of us (a very few, I accept) have to struggle at those points to recall only certain things from TH at that point. It is a potentially dangerous manouvre on Tolkien’s part to remind us too strongly of TH at this point - the image of the attacking trolls here being called Bert & Tom & speaking in bad ‘Cockerney’ risks turning the incident into farce: Quote:
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 09-11-2005 at 03:42 PM. |
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#3 | |||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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I'm sure Tolkien would not have intended this as to be seen as specifically Wiccan (not least because this would have been fairly arcane knowledge at the time), but otherwise, I'm not sure where he would have gained this image from, and what the significance of it is. I'd be interested to hear what other 'Downers think. Quote:
Again, this moment reflects upon real world activity; statues are often torn down after revolutions/wars, and it is considered a great dishonour to deface a memorial or statue - as seen when a Churchill statue was spray painted during a demo in London a few years back. The demonstrators wished to deface the icon, while to others it was an act of disrespect; it is not the statue, not the thing, which is at fault/venerated, but what it represents, and here this is what the Gondorians are doing, reasserting their rule. Quote:
Was this an opportunistic attack? It surprises me that Sauron did not send more forces out to attack the group heading his way; they would have ben incredibly easy to pick off at many stages, and the Nazgul were watching them all the way. this only serves to underline just how much Sauron thought they were walking into a trap. Maybe he thought that the forces of the West were mistaken in believing they had won the whole war at Pelennor and wished to spring his surprise on them, but I don't think even Sauron in his arrogance would underestimate Gandalf's attention to strategy. It seems, with all the stops to mend statues, blowing horns, sending out lieutenants and the like, that both sides are playing games with one another at this point. Which then leaves you at the end of the chapter, with Pippin possibly dead, wondering where on earth is Frodo? ![]()
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Gordon's alive!
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Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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The MoS is obviously a descendant of the Black Numenoreans ('who came of the race of those that are named the Black Numenoreans'), which hints that they, like the Gondorians, must have preserved their culture to a certain extent. This culture 'worshipped' Sauron, rather than Eru which brings me to another thorny idea. It is not obvious that there is any organised religion in Middle-earth and it is not clear if anyone actually 'worshipped' Eru; there is the instance where Faramir's men 'look to the west', but this is not an overtly ritual moment and could easily be in remembrance of Numenor. Yet now we know that some people in Middle-earth do have some kind of religion, except it is of an evil bent, and they worship Sauron. Why do they do this? Because they are 'enamoured of evil knowledge'. I'm not sure if there is some kind of message in this, but what it does show is how Sauron may have tempted followers to him, through his 'evil knowledge'. Quote:
I think one of Sauron's temptations for Men may be that he can extend life, and thus many will flock to his 'side'; perhaps he then keeps them in line with the promise of something which will also ease the suffering they would endure as they entered unnatural lifespans.
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Gordon's alive!
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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this might be better discussed in the field of cormallen chapter discussion, but I've always thought Pippin DID die, and was brought back to life through the 'Grace of the Valar' because of his great deeds. I have this view because of Gimli's line to him on the field of Cormallen
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#7 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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Essex, I think it's a matter of use of language - "I made sure you were dead" means "I was sure you were dead" - that's how we would say it today. We may often be mistaken even though we are sure of something. I also think the Valar were a bit more exclusive in their use of resurrection - Pippin is no Gandalf; he's not absolutely necessary to the success of the Quest, so there would have been no reason for him to die and come alive again.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
Posts: 518
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Most of the quotes I was going to use have been touched upon. I like this chapter especially because of the Mouth of Sauron. Throughout the work thus far, Sauron is an Eye, a character that dominates the story, yet never really seen physically. The author uses this tool to great effect in the story, enhancing the evil doings and strategies of the character of Sauron. But with the MoS, we are placed as close as we ever will be to Sauron himself. Here we have an entity who, unlike a Wraith, is cogent and communicates excellently.
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Shade of Carn Dûm
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There are a few things I would like to point out about the MoS. When I read through the book I really enjoyed this scene btu I knew that Sauron did not have the ring, because we left off from book four with Sam taking the ring in "The choices of Master Samwise." However this would be torture to the men of the west not knowing if Sauron had retrieved the ring. I beleive Gandalf at first was mortified, but then realized, wait, they brought out Sam's sword with all Frodo's gear. The trained observer could tell that Sauron did not have the ring, even if they skipped book four and read from 3 to 5 to 4 to 6. The reason Ia m bringing this out is because a blade of Gondolin woul dbe more telling than a blade of the downfallen west. Even the MoS's words point to the fact that Sam is still free if Frodo is not. I do not have my books on me, but the MoS says something along the lines of
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Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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When the Mouth of Sauron brought out Frodo's belongings, I felt my heart sink. I flashed back to the image of Sam banging on the doors of the Orc tower at the end of TTT and thought that he had been unable to rescue Frodo. I also found myself wondering even more what had happened to Sam after the fateful events of Cirith Ungol. At any rate, those who were not present at that scene might have thought Sam was captured as well.
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Some interesting discussion on the age of MoS: Magic in Middle Earth I'd always thought the horse was a real one, possibly one of the horses stolen from the Rohirrim, then made to look frightening by sorcery. No real evidence for that theory though, other than Éomer's speech to Gimil in TTT. Quote:
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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Maniacal Mage
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This is one of my favorite chapters in the book. There are many emotions through each of the characters that catch my eye. A few months ago, I became very obsessed with those who would not fight
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![]() Just a quick scratch of the surface. I'll try and analize The mouth later Edit: Quote:
![]() ![]() Edit 2: Oh, and I did think Pippin died the first time I read this. Not just because of his injuries, but because he had seemed to lose the will to live.
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'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.' Last edited by The Perky Ent; 09-25-2005 at 04:41 PM. |
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Dead Serious
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Here's an old one I didn't have anything to say about before, but upon randomly selecting it for reading this afternoon (a long story, involving two card decks, a dark green felt pen, and a calculator...), I noticed a detail about this chapter that had eluded me in past readings.
It's not a big theological, philosophical, or sociological insight, merely a detail of the battleground's terrain that I had never noticed before. I present, therefore, a couple of quotes: Quote:
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emphasis mine A small detail, perhaps, but one of those details that I didn't notice in my dozen-odd previous readings, and one that totally changes my mind's-eye view of the battle. (And, incidentally, something totally absent from PJ's version.) It raises a couple of small questions, however, that I'll mention. The first is where did the water come from to make the pools and mud? The rest of this region seems quite waterless. But that's really a minor question. My second question is a minor one as well, but it deals with the movement of the embassies: on which side of the pools and mud did the meeting between Gandalf, Aragorn, et al, with the Mouth of Sauron take place? My assumption would be on the outer side. If so, how did the Mouth and his escort go through? The description seems to be that these were pretty deep pools if TROLLS were wading through them. Again, these are minor questions, and I can think of any number of possible answers, but I thought I'd toss them out and see what other people think. Assuming they deign to revisit this old thread...
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#13 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Essex, England
Posts: 886
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Funny thing happened yesterday - After 66 years my Mum has finally decided to read the Lord of the Rings (after a fair bit of cadjoling from me) - She came round yesterday and saw me reading TT and it reminded her to update me on where she was in the book (it's taking her a long time!) - She told me she's almost finished, and just got past the bit 'where Pippin dies'. I had to turn away with a wry smile on my face! |
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#14 |
Dead Serious
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Not a lot struck me as I finished Book V this time--beyond the thought that that may mean this is the most expendable chapter of Book V, the very one in which the host of the West assaults the Gates if Mordor! In any other book, indeed in the movie renditio , this would be a centerpiece. Here it's a denouement and a cliffhanger, one that's only to be resolved through being overshadowed by the true climax in Book VI.
Given it's location on the road to Minas Ithil, it's just possible it was Isildur. Granted, there's no proof of this at all in the text, it would sharpen Aragorn's point to Sauron to restore it: the Heir of Isildur is come.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#15 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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This chapter brings repetition and contrast to Pippin and Merry's stories. Yet again Pippin is taken onward by Gandalf (and Aragorn) while Merry is stuck behind alone. This time though Pippin is the one who has to fight in battle. And interestingly, though he thinks even killing the Mouth wouldn't quite put him "level" with Merry, he is a lot more proud and happy about his troll kill later on, and arguably gets some pleasure out of boasting about it now and again (like he does to scare away the ruffians). I don't believe Merry ever speaks about his moment of glory. Having touched the "shadow world" in that fashion brings him closer to what Frodo has become, even though he never bore the Ring. So of the four Hobbits, only Pippin remained whole. Pippin's story mimics Bilbo's in TH: there's maturation and wisdom but without the damage - the price Frodo has to pay, and to a lesser extent Sam and Merry.
Every time I read this chapter I can't believe how lucky all the events were in terms of timing. Sure, timing was important in the Ride of the Rohirrim and the Grey Company, but they had a specific target to aim for. Here, Aragorn doesn't know what's happening to Frodo and Sam. He doesn't know if they're alive, or where they are within Mordor (if they even got that far). His timing ends up being perfect, but it hangs so close. A day too late and the Ring might have never made it to Sammath Naur, a day too early and regardless of what happened to the Ring the whole army would have been dead and who knows what forces would be sent out to pillage the poorly defended west. Gandalf sounds very logical and convincing when he pushes this course of action in The Last Debate, but the whole magnitude of their risk - that all the men who go are knowingly setting themselves up to die - only becomes evident in this chapter. The amount of coincidence and good luck in this chapter is overwhelming considering the consequences of failure. I suppose that plays in to Aragorn's choice to leave so many people behind and not to encourage more to overcome their fear and follow him onto the "doorstep" of Mordor. Everyone who goes, goes willingly because they trust their commanders that this battle is necessary, but a certain death can't be forced onto people. I find the splitting of the army atop two hills an interesting tactical choice. Hills are good because gravity works for you and against the enemy, and you have more advantage of height, etc. But splitting into 2 parts? If any tactician/historian can explain the value of this decision, I am very curious to know. It seems to me that by analogy of the speed of dissolving of a round piece of ice in water, breaking the volume into two pieces of ice means more surface area and the pieces dissolve faster - which is the opposite of what you want in battle. Clearly the tactic had to have some advantage - the challenge was a suicide mission but not that suicidal. Quote:
As to the side of the parley meeting, it says Gandalf&co rode up to shouting distance of the gate. I'm not sure what that implies of the relative distance between the army and the gate, or where along that length the pools and muck would be. If it's really moat-like, I would expect it to be closer to the gate, but then again Mordor can be as huge and overbearing and out-of-proportion as Sauron wants, so who knows - maybe he wanted the mud away from his doorstep. Edit: crossed with Form. Darn! I meant to get this in before you commented on the chapter. ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#16 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Dividing your force between two hills: not optimal, but if the hills aren't very big, too small to get your whole force on just one, then you have a choice: deploy them as Aragorn did, or deploy them in a continuous line with the flanks on the hills. There is merit in that, but on the other hand, it creates a weak spot in the middle of the line where the enemy can break through. Moreover, when you are grossly outnumbered, you want to present as small a front as possible to the enemy, so he can't bring his numbers directly to bear (think Thermopylae).
Of course Aragorn's little army was still doomed barring a miracle (which happened), but if the idea was to buy as much time as possible then two schiltrons on elevated ground make a lot of sense. What makes ZERO sense is the movies' suicidal banzai charge, which would have been wiped out in five minutes.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#17 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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Thanks!
I still feel that one big circle makes for a "longer death" alternative, but I suppose it comes down to the size of the hills as you said.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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