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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations
This is the first draft of the chapter Note on the landing of the Five Wizards and their functions and operations in the part The Black Years.
There is no Basic Text in this chapter and I will give source information for each part that is used. They are mostly from The Five Wizards in HoME 12 and The Istari from UT. The markings are: BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part. FW-SL-zz for Five Wizards, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
BY-HL-11: I don’t think there is much to say about the title, but we might discuss here if we want to include this at all. And I might start with my reasoning for including both these and the Glorfindel chapter: In this very late writing JRR Tolkien stated that the Wizards should not come all at roughly the same time, even so he had written otherwise in older texts. As far as I remember there is nothing in the works published by JRR Tolkien himself that would contradict this. So following the rules of the project, the last statement has to be taken, and that is, that the Blue Wizards came in the second age, at the some occasion to which Glorfindel came back to Middle-earth (even so the fact might have been unknown in Middel-earth for one and half Age of the Sun). If that is so than the council of the Valar choosing the Istari must have occurred at this time (about Second Age 1600). I think, that Saruman, Gandalf and Radagast did postponed their journey to Middle-earth until about Third Age 1000 must have been a side effect of the intervention of the Númenoreans. But of course this must not be mentioned in our text. That the three came later is fact recorded, but the reason is not explained. FW-SL-01 I inserted here a part from UT about the council of the Valar. In my opinion it fit here well because of the prayer for help mentione in the Glorfindel chapter just before. FW-SL-02, FW-SL-03, FW-SL-04, FW-SL-05, FW-SL-12: Removing the open comments of Christopher Tolkien explaining the reconstruction of the text. FW-SL-06, FW-SL-07: This movements of passage is needed for a (re-) construction of a closed readable text. FW-SL-08, FW-SL-18, FW-SL-19, FW-SL-20, FW-SL-21: A comment by Christopher Tolkien removed. FW-SL-09: The linguistical information about Radagast and Pallando are best placed here, I think. FW-SL-10: This is the text moved to a slightly earlier place. FW-SL-11: This question from HoMe 12 is their reported as the beginning of the essay about the Istarí and I re-established it as such. For me it fits well with the placement of the chapter and the choosing scene just given. FW-SL-13: Here I added the main essay about the Istari from UT. FW-SL-14: For me the reference of ‘they’ is still clear enough, so that we do not need change to ‘the Istari’. FW-SL-15, FW-SL-19: This is JRR Tolkien talking about his story writing and has to be removed. FW-SL-16: Here we go back to HoME 12 to tell story of the earlier arrival of the Blue Wizards. FW-SL-17: The last part this Note should be used later, when Gandalf actually arrives. And the second part that is remoeved here is again an open comment of Christopher Tolkien explaining the reconstruction of the text. FW-SL-22: At the end this note became very rough, so we have to edit out some editorial markers by Christopher Tolkien to create a closed text. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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BL-HL-11: I am loathe to put this here, as I have said before. In Appendix B to LotR we have this statement:
Quote:
As for the rest, much of the comments would depend on where we place the narrative in time, and so I will refrain from commenting until we solve the first question. |
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#3 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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BL-HL-11: As ArcusCalion has already mentioned his doubts about this placement, this come not unexpected. I thnk we have to take the words in LotR; Appendix B by their face value, not by their implication: ‘appear’ does not mean ‘arrive’. Especially in the context of these annals it means that they became known to the people in Middle-earth. About the two Blue Wizards it is explicitly said that they their existence was unknown until the debate between Gandalf and Saruman in which Saruman mentioned the Rod of the Five Wizards. As the Annalse were clearly compiled much later, the mentioning of Istari here means not much that from that date on any think about them could be extracted from the stories preserved when the Annals were compiled to be put in these Annals. As the two Blue Wizards never work in the West (it seems that they only visited it once to fetch up Saruman for his journey into the east) it is natural that their appearance in Middle-earth (in the middle of the Second Age) was not recorded in these Annals concerned only with the history of the Westlands.
As JRR Tolkien felt free to change the date of the arrival of the two Blue Wizards, it seems clear that he as well saw no contradiction in this statement from LotR; Appendix B that was already in print. That some other sources say that Saruman came first is true. But the sources seem to be all more or less contemporary, so which should have priority is not that clear. Respcetfully Findegil |
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#4 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Very well, after much long thought and hesitation, I agree that the text published is indeed ambiguous enough to follow Tolkien's later notes. However, I have a few changes I would like to make all the same which I will lay out here.
My main point of remaining dissent is this: the narrative as put together by Fin (which is almost identical to the one I used in my own Third Age placement) does not emphasize that these Istari were mostly not arriving at this time. The only explanation of that is given in the last paragraph, where the blue wizards are said to have come earlier during the Second Age than the other two. Are we claiming then that all the Istari arrived far earlier than the time of their first 'appearance' (albeit the Blue Wizards said to be earlier than the others)? If so this is a radical revision indeed, and not what Tolkien intended, as he only wished to change the timeframe of the Blue Wizards. However, I fear that placing this chapter here lends the implication that all five came far earlier to the text. BY-HL-11: Personally, I think this headline is unsatisfactory. As the narrative stands in this version, only two of the wizards landed at this time, with the other three arriving later on. In that case, it can hardly be called the 'landing of the five wizards' if only two of them arrive. Perhaps we can shorten it to 'Of the Five Wizards' since 'and their functions and operations' seems almost too much. FW-SL-16: This addition contains a strange contradiction. As Fin has so far championed, the two blue wizards must come first during the second age, but here in this text it is said that Saruman came first. If indeed we are to go with the later revision of the 2nd age Blue Wizards then I think we must remove this. In addition, we have the remark 'no names were recorded for the blue wizards' which is clearly untrue, as in the next paragraph we give two names! We must thus change this addition: Quote:
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#5 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Hello to all. Again repeat I have not my material with me. But I wanted to share my opinion in this matter.
In this project as well as mine, some later ideas from the professor were rejected (the matter of G and C is the most important). And in my humble opinion if is necessary include the matter of the Istari into the narrative line the best place is in the TA. And left the SA only to Glorfindel. I assume you have reviewed the Letters if they have some more information about this matter (i think say something but I cannot remember where) , it would be worthy to do it. Greetings |
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#6 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I wonder if it is best to put the narrative in the Third Age, but leave the mention that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. That way the majority of the wizards are left in the place they were meant to be, and we learn retroactively of the presence of the Blue Wizards in the Second Age.
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#7 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I forgot to include this in my post, but I propose adding in the short poem about the Istari right before the council (we could discuss if it is better to include it after the council):
FW-SL-00.5: Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-26-2018 at 06:32 PM. |
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#8 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Posted by ArcusCalion:
Quote:
I see the issue you have with the text as compiled by me, but I don't see a good solution that is not nearing fan-ficion as my theroy given above. Posted by ArcusCalion: Quote:
I am not so sure which dificulties are eassier to solve, and still tend to include the chapter here. Gondowe, I couldn't find any thing in the Letters that would add inside to our discussion. BY-HL-11I can see the reasoning behind that change. I agree that 'Of the Five Wizards' should be enough. FW-SL-16: Agreed, the changes might help to lessen the issue with the early choosing and later arivial. FW-SL-00.5: I like that additon. FW-SL-00.7: I don't think this change is necessary. Radagast is not reported to return. It is said explicitly that he became enamoured to the fauna of Middle-earth and that this prevented him of fullfilling his mission properly. And the two Blue Wizards, well they did a good job for a long time as it seems but that does not mean that they did not faile in the end. See Saruman for excample, he also did for a long time the best he could to promote the mission of the Istari. Respectfully Findegil |
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#9 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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FW-SL-16: I think you are right and these changes might help to alleviate the erroneous implications of the chapter placing. I shall have to revise my Third Age draft for these things, but I suppose that will not be a problem. Perhaps this chapter may as well go here.
FW-SL-00.7: Christoper Tolkien points out that if Yavanna sent Radagast explicitly because he was a lover of birds and beasts, then how could he fail his mission by becoming enamored of them? I suppose you could argue that his secondary goals supplanted his primary goals and that was what made him fail, but due to the fact that Christopher Tolkien himself expressed doubts about the logic here, as well as Tolkien's apparent change of heart about the Blue WIzards, throws this into doubt for me. Liek you said however, the Blue Wizards may have turned to evil eventually, but it must have been very late, if even at the end of the Third Age the armies of Sauron were smaller due to their work. Personally, I think from a timeline perspective their turning evil is extremely unlikely. |
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#10 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Turning top evil does not mean going over to Sauron! If they did build their own realm of power in competition to Sauron as did Saruman, or probably even more open, since Saruman played a double game with bith sides, that would have still be helpfull in distracting forces that Sauron could have used against the west, but would have been a failure in the Istari quest.
And for Radagast that is exactly how I see his failure: Even so Yavanna wished to have one emessairy that had a special care for here beasts and birds, the main mission was to raise opposition to Sauron, and I don't see Radagast doing that in his actions around Rosgobel. Resspectfully Findegil |
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#11 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Ah you are correct, I had not thought of that. I suppose since there is no explicit contradiction here then we must leave it as is, as sad as that is.
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#12 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Actually, I had a new thought reading the beginning of this work. The narrative starts off somewhat abruptly, but I have an idea. If we take the last line of the poem: 'Sauron he saw as a slow menace.' And place it as prose right before the 'Therefore' it would be a better opening. So, like so:
Quote:
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#13 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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I think we reach a similar effect with simply add a full stop after 'menace' and remove the '....'.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#14 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I really like the inclusion of the poem at the beginning of this chapter. I agree with Arcus that moving the last line of the poem into the main text makes for a less abrupt start and flows well into the second sentence. I have a few comments/questions:
1) Quote:
2) I'm assuming much of the material in the Unfinished Tales chapter has been moved to Volume 3 of TftE. However, there is a large section in the Istari chapter in UT which seems like it makes sense here: Quote:
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#15 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) This is a good point, but as Fin placed it in the draft I'll let him respond to it.
2) I had not considered this placement, but it may very well make sense to include this here. That essay has indeed been included in the outline for Volume 3, but this piece is indeed pertinent to this section, and Fin has suggested adding the essay into these main texts. Maybe you could present your idea for its edited inclusion so we can see how it looks? Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-14-2018 at 11:03 PM. |
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#16 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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1) Okay, you got me there. That was me overmuch combining. Good to have someone to check my drafts critical!
The reason why I wanted to include Mandos and Nienna is that I did not observe the difference between ‘Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë’ and ‘Alatar took Pallando as a friend.’ In that way I thought, that we would have to provide a similar reason to the one for Radagst as well for Pallando why he would be included. Therefore I assumed that Mandos and Nienna would have demanded (like Yavanna) that one favored by them should be included in the group. But I see now that this is not the case, and that is much more natural for Alatar to choose a friend from following of the same Valar. So I think we have t change the text in this way: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#17 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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1) The works for me.
2) I added in one (very long) sentence: Quote:
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#18 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I like this addition better. I think it makes more sense to put this here, since it helps to flesh out a very very rough chapter, and indeed provides context and explanation for their decision and solution.
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#19 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Agreed.
Respectfully Findegil |
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