The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of the chapter 1 in the part The Black Years which is named The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves.

Since in this part I found it very difficult to nominate a basic text, all snippets I used are marked by an editing mark with source information.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

SP-SL-zz for The Sindarin Princes of the Silvian Elves, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

SP-HM-xx for The Sindarin Princes of the Silvian Elves, The Happy Mariners, for all changes inside that poem.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

BY-HL-01<editorial addition based on Of the Rings of Power
The Black Years
>BY-HL-02<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B:
The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves
SP-SL-01<Of the Rings of Power {Of the Rings of Power
and the Third Age
in which these tales come to
their end
}Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar in Beleriand named Gorthaur. ... so as to deceive all but the most wary.
When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, ... for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.
* * *
In the Great Battle and the tumults of the fall of Thangorodrim there were mighty convulsions in the earth, ... and many of the Eldar still dwelt there, lingering, unwilling yet to forsake Beleriand where they had fought and laboured long. Gil-galad son of SP-SL-02{Fingon}[Orodreth] was their king, and with him was Elrond Half-elven, son of Eärendil the Mariner and brother of Elros first king of Númenor. SP-SL-03<LotR, Appendix B In Lindon south of the Lune dwelt for a time Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol; his wife was Galadriel, greatest of Elven women.>
Upon the shores of the Gulf of Lhûn the Elves built their havens, ... if they would, to their kindred in Eressëa and Valinor beyond the encircling seas. SP-SL-04 BY-HL-03<LT
The Happy Mariners
><LTI know a window in a Western tower
that opens on celestial seas,
SP-HM-01{and there }from wells of dark behind the stars
SP-HM-02{blows ever}[there ever blows] cold a keen unearthly breeze.
It is a white tower builded on the Twilit Isles, 5
and springing from their everlasting shade
it glimmers like a house of lonely pearl,
where lights forlorn take harbour ere they fade.
Its feet are washed by waves that never rest.
There silent boats go by into the West 10
all piled and twinkling in the dark
with orient fire in many a hoarded spark
that divers won
in waters of the rumoured Sun.
There sometimes throbs below a silver harp, 15
touching the heart with sudden music sharp;
or far beneath the SP-HM-03{mountains}[mountain] high and sheer
the voices of grey sailors echo clear,
afloat among the shadows of the world
in oarless ships and with their canvas furled, 20
chanting a farewell and a solemn song:
for wide the sea is, and SP-HM-04{the}[their] journey long.
O happy mariners upon a journey far,
beyond the grey islands and past Gondobar,
to those great portals on the final shores 25
where far away constellate fountains leap,
and dashed against Night's dragon-headed doors
in foam of stars fall sparkling in the deep!
While ISP-HM-05{, alone, look out behind the moon}[ look out alone,]
SP-HM-06{from}[imprisoned] in my white and windy tower, 30
SP-HM-07{ye}[you] bide no moment and await no hour,
but go with solemn song and harpers' tune
SP-HM-08{through the dark shadows and the shadowy seas
to the last land of the Two Trees,
whose fruit and flower are moon and sun, 35
where light of earth is ended and begun.}
Ye follow {Earendel}[Eärendil] without rest,
the shining mariner, beyond the West,
who passed the mouth of night and launched his bark 35
upon the outer seas of everlasting dark.SP-HM-09{ 40}
Here only comes at whiles a wind to blow
returning darkly down the way ye go,
with perfume laden of unearthly trees.
Here only long afar through window-pane 40
I glimpse the flicker of the golden rainSP-HM-10{ 45}
that falls for ever on the outer seas.>BY-HL-04<editorial addition
* * *
>Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, for which nonetheless they ever yearned in their hearts.> SP-SL-05<LotR; Appendix B SP-SL-06{Thranduil}[Oropher], long in{ the north of} Greenwood the Great, was one of these. SP-SL-07<Editorial addtion based on The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B As was Amdír King of Lórien; though whether {Thranduil}[Oropher] and {Amroth}[Amdír] were akin is not now known.>
SP-SL-08<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. ... who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand.
The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, ... and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward{ [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age]}. Under the leadership of these they became again ordered folk and increased in wisdom.>

SP-SL-09<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn Galadriel was the daughter of Finarfin, and sister of Finrod Felagund. She was welcome in Doriath, because her mother Eärwen, daughter of Olwë, was Telerin and the niece of Thingol, and because the people of Finarfin had had no part in the Kinslaying of Alqualondë and she became a friend of Melian. In Doriath she met Celeborn, grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol.> SP-SL-10<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; very late and aprtily illegible note In the years after they did not join in the war against Angband, which they judged to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement), befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11<Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadirel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12<HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].> SP-SL-13<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath>and would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. When they entered that region there were many Noldor in their following, together with Grey-elves and Green-elves; and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire). Celeborn and Galadriel came to be regarded as Lord and Lady of the Eldar in Eriador, including the wandering companies of Nandorin origin who had never passed west over Ered Lindon and come down into Ossiriand SP-SL-15{[see The Silmarillion p.94.] During their sojourn near Nenuial was born, at some time between the years 350 and 400, their son Amroth. [}The time and place of Celebrian's birth, whether here or later in Eregion, or even later in Lórien, is not made definite.{]}
But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of MelkorSP-SL-16{ [see The Silmarillion p. 51]}, had been left behind. ... beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.
Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, ... There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, SP-SL-17{3} where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been – not far from Nenuial; ... and it was destroyed in the battle of {Sarn Athrad}[Athrad Daer] SP-SL-18{ [The Silmarillion pp. 233-5]}. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm. SP-SL-19{4} Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath ... and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor.
Galadriel and Celeborn had in their company a Noldorin craftsman named Celebrimbor. SP-SL-20{[He is here said to have been one of the survivors of Gondolin, who had been among Turgon's greatest artificers; but the text is emended to the later story that made him a descendant of Fëanor, as is mentioned in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings (in the revised edition only), and more fully detailed in The Silmarillion (pp. 176,276), where he is said to have been}/He was/ the son of Curufin, the fifth son of Fëanor, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth.{]} Celebrimbor had SP-SL-21{"}an almost 'dwarvish' obsession with crafts{"}; and he soon became the chief artificer of Eregion, entering into a close relationship with the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm, among whom his greatest friend was Narvi. SP-SL-22{[In the inscription on the West-gate of Moria Gandalf read the words: Im Narvi hain echant: Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin: "I, Narvi, made them. Celebrimbor of Hollin drew these signs." The Fellowship of Ring II 4.]} Both Elves and Dwarves had great profit from this association: so that Eregion became far stronger, and Khazad-dûm far more beautiful, than either would have done alone.> SP-SL-23<Of the Rings of Power Only in Eregion, which Men called Hollin, did Elves of Noldorin race establish a lasting realm beyond the Ered Luin. SP-SL-24{Eregion was nigh to the great mansions of the Dwarves that were named Khazad-dûm, but by the Elves Hadhodrond, and afterwards Moria. }From Ost-in-Edhil, the city of the Elves, the highroad ran to the west gate of Khazad-dûm, for a friendship arose between Dwarves and Elves, such as has never elsewhere been, to the enrichment of both those peoples. In Eregion the craftsmen of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the People of the Jewel-smiths, surpassed in cunning all that have ever wrought, save only Fëanor himself; and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of CurufinSP-SL-25{, who was estranged from his father and remained in Nargothrond when Celegorm and Curufin were driven forth, as is told in the Quenta Silmarillion}.
Elsewhere in Middle-earth there was peace for many years; yet the lands were for the most part savage and desolate, save only where the people of Beleriand came. Many Elves dwelt there indeed, as they had dwelt through the countless years, wandering free in the wide lands far from the Sea; but they were Avari, to whom the deeds of Beleriand were but a rumour and Valinor only a distant name. And in the south and in the further east Men multiplied; and most of them turned to evil, for Sauron was at work.>
SP-SL-26<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B The Elvish folk of {this}Oropher’s realm had migrated from the south, being the kin and neighbours of the Elves of Lórien; but they had dwelt in Greenwood the Great east of Anduin. In the Second Age their king, Oropher SP-SL-27{[}the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas{]}, had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien. But as yet there was little to fear between the Greenwood and the Mountains and there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the river, until the War of the Last Alliance.>

Some comments to the editing:
BY-HL-01: I think we discussed that already shortly in the outline thread. The overall plan is to divide TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH volume 2: NÚMENOR AND THE HISTORY OF THE NORTH-WEST OF MIDDLE-EARTH in two parts. The Black Years for the Second Age and The Third Age or as ArcusCalion named it The Fading Years.
BY-HL-02: This title is taken from the Appendix B of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT. I found that most fitting for what we have to tell first. As is seen in the next editing, I followed Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age in the arrangement of the story elements.

SP-SL-01: I used the introduction of Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age but not the title which is used later on.

SP-SL-02: Nearly a regular change, since we decided to have Orodreth as the father of Gil-galad.

SP-SL-03: Here I introduced this sentence from Appendix B of LotR.

SP-SL-04: Probably we should under this editing marker discuss if we include the poem or not. The former discussion about it is found in the thread “** Revising The Voyage of Earendil”

BY-HL-03: The title of the poem seemed to me a good enough introduction.

SP-HM-01 to SP-HM-10: All these changes bring the second text of The Happy Mariners given in HoME 2, Chapter 5: The Tale of Earendel to the state of the text as revised in 1940. Christopher Tolkien wrote:

Many years later my father rewrote the poem, and I give this version here. Still later he turned to it again and made a few further alterations (here recorded in footnotes); at this time he noted that the revised version dated from '1940?'.

BY-HL-04: We need this addition to separate the rest of the chapter from The Happy Mariners.

SP-SL-05 & SP-SL-06: Here I used the Appendix B text as a basis for giving the example of Orodreth. In LotR Thranduil isnamed and not Oropher how actauly was the Sindarin to establish the realm in Grennwood. Also the place was not at first the north of Greenwood.

SP-SL-07: I also think we should bring in here Amdír, Sindarin King of Lórien and that passage was the best choice I could find.

SP-SL-08: With this passage about the nature of the Silvian Elves we are back to more secure ground.

SP-SL-09: As Celeborn is as well as Oropher and Amdír a Sindarin Prince establishing realms east of Ered Lindon, and for that matter the best documented case, I found it appropriate to tell part of the ‘History of Galadriel and Celeborn under this chapter.

SP-SL-10: We start with a (by necessity) short retrospective telling of the First Age journey of the couple to Eriador and beyond.
I know that gondowe had told this in his version at the chronologically right place, but we find in many stories given in this part introductions with some retrospective (re-)telling. Therefore I found it much more convenient to collect that story here instead of spreading all over the First Age chapters.

SP-SL-11:This is a difficult editorial addition, but I found no better way to bring Celeborn back, which we know as a ‘fact’.

SP-SL-12: Again I used the text in an probably unwanted way. The reference of the mountains is now changed from Ered Lindon to the Hiteaglir or at least that is the strait forward interpretation. I could argue that the terms ‘inner lands’ refers as well to Eriador and so the text is still to be understood as it was written. But to be honest that was not how I used the text here. If this re-interpretation is not acceptable, we might use the passage from LotR where Galadriel said she crossed the mountains (Hitheaglir) before the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin in addition to the last part about the summons of Eönwë to construct a text:

… But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11<Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadirel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12.03b<LotR ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin>SP-SL-12.5b<HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains SP-SL-12.07b<editorial addition based on LotR of Hitheaglir >and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].> SP-SL-13<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath>and would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, ...

SP-SL-13: I avoided the question of the ban. It is given RGEO and we must not repeat it here. But the additional reason that Celeborn stayed, and she would not leave him should be mentioned some where.

SP-SL-14: I found no good place to state the simple fact that Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath in the First Age narrative. Where I tried to put it, it either was an isolated information breaking the narrative or I had to specify some terms of that escape, which would have been fan-fictional. So I think again that this is best told here in retrospective.

SP-SL-15: Here I removed the reference to The Silmarillion and Amroth as son of Galadriel and Celeborn, so I think we should keep the information that the birth place and time of Celebrian is unrecorded.

SP-SL-16 & SP-SL-18: Again a reference to The Silmarillion removed.

SP-SL-17 & SP-SL-19: Footnote 3 & 4 are a references to LotR which I think we have to remove.

SP-SL-20: Celebrimbor is in our version the son of Curufin, and I edited the text as to repeat that information.

SP-SL-21: I am happy that we have in the text in UT these marker of direct quote from original text, but we have no choice and must use Christopher’s retelling, so we have to remove the quotation marks.

SP-SL-22: Again a reference to LotR removed.

SP-SL-23: Here we come back to Of the Rings of Power, which I used as a kind of guideline for the arrangement of the texts.

SP-SL-24: I skipt that sentence to avoid redundancy.

SP-SL-25: We have used this half-sentence in our First Age narrative, so I think we must remove it here.

SP-SL-26: in this last paragraph we come back to Oropher, because here we can now give his reason for the first northward removal.

SP-SL-27: Even so this is marked in UT as a comment by Christopher to the character Oropher, I think we must give this information somewhere. And this seems the best place.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Only a fast commentary

SP-SL-14: I found no good place to state the simple fact that Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath in the First Age narrative. Where I tried to put it, it either was an isolated information breaking the narrative or I had to specify some terms of that escape, which would have been fan-fictional. So I think again that this.

When it is said at the end os OtRoD that Elwing escaped from Doriath with part of the people I introduced that whit her was Celeborn. (As I remember).
But it is well place your composition, as well as mine, in fact it couls be said that it is the same time place. It is only divided by a title and a volume division.

Greetings

[ArcusCalion]

I will respond to each point raised by Fin in order. Any to which I do not respond, I agree with.

SP-SL-03: This looks good, but perhaps we should include the bit from Dwarves and Men, footnote number 65:

SP-SL-03.5 <DM Note 65 The Elves of Harlindon, or Lindon south of the Lune, {are said to have been}were largely of Sindarin origin, and the region {to have been}was a fief under the rule of Celeborn.>

SP-SL-04: I included this poem in Volume 3, but I suppose it fits somewhat here. Why do you want to include it here and not later?

SP-SL-07: The second part of this addition is from a larger paragraph used later on in Of the Rings of Power. Should we not leave it there? Or do you suggest repeating it? As for the first part and the addition of Amroth, I agree with the reasoning, but I am unsure if there is a pressing need to write something like this wholecloth. Do the rules allow for such invention?

SP-SL-08: This is fine, but in my version I added after this paragraph another insertion from Appendix A of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn:

SP-SL-08.5 <GC Appendix A Although the dialects of the Silvan Elves, when they again met their long separated kindred, had so far diverged from Sindarin as to be hardly intelligible, little study was needed to reveal their kinship as Eldarin tongues. Though the comparison of the Silvan dialects with their own speech greatly interested the loremasters, especially those of Noldorin origin, little is now known of the Silvan Elvish. The Silvan Elves had invented no forms of writing, and those who learned this art from the Sindar wrote in Sindarin as well as they could.>

SP-SL-12: I think the version you give in the draft post is better. The one you constructed in the commentary is far too mis-match, and I think is needlessly specific. I wholeheartedly support the shorter one which you gave first.

SP-SL-13, 14: This whole paragraph came together marvelously, but I have added the bit from the Shibboleth about her choice:

...[Eönwë].> SP-SL-12.7 <SF Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth.> SP-SL-13<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For this and for love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath> and would not leave Middle-earth {(and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there)}, she did not go ...

I think this pride of hers is an important point to emphasize, especially since it's given in the Shibboleth from which we have taken much. But Perhaps this is not needed, or is redundant.

SP-SL-15: The part that says her birth is unrecorded is an editorial observation by Christopher, not a lore point by Tolkien. Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to stick to that as canon, and certainly no reason to include CT's editorial comment as part of the text. I personally see no issue with simply replacing Amroth's name with Celebrian.

SP-SL-26: I have another addition right before this paragraph talking about Oropher:

SP-SL-25.5 <GC Appendix B Oropher was of Sindarin origin, and> < had come among {them}the Silvan Elves with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, SP-SL-25.7 based on GC Appendix A {adopting}[learning] their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it.>
SP-SL-26 <GC Appendix B The Elvish folk of {this}Oropher's realm had migrated from the south, being the kin and neighbors of the Elves of SP-SL-26.1 {Lórien}[Lórinand]; but they had dwelt in Greenwood the Great east of Anduin. In the Second Age their king, Oropher, SP-SL-27{[} father of Thranduil, father of Legolas, {]} had withdrawn northward beyond the Gladden Fields. SP-SL-28 <Disaster of the Gladden Fields Note 14 They had left their ancient dwellings about Amon Lanc, across the river from their kin in {Lórien}[Lórinand]. Three times he had moved northwards, and at the end of the Second Age he dwelt in the western glens of the Emyn Duir, and his numerous people lived and roamed in the woods and vales westward as far as Anduin, north of the ancient Dwarf-Road (Men-i-Naugrim).> This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into {Lórien}[Lórinand]. But as yet there was little to fear between the Greenwood and the Mountains and there was constant intercourse between his people and their kin across the river, until the War of the Last Alliance.>

25.5 This paragraph describes the motivations of the Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves, and I think it is very important, not to mention discussing the linguistics a bit.

25.7 This paragraph dates to a time before Tolkien decided that the Silvan language had died out, and so I changed it to reflect his later views.

26.1 At this point in time, the country is named Lórinand, and so I think we should reflect that in the text. I have changed it in the following paragraphs as well.

28 This is from the note to the Gladden Fields. I felt that it fit better here in the narrative than in a random footnote to a much much later text, so I've moved it here.

This is an excellent chapter, and a brilliant start to the Second Age narratives! I'm very excited to go forward on this. I apologize for the length of the post.

[Findegil]

Posted by gondowe:

When it is said at the end os OtRoD that Elwing escaped from Doriath with part of the people I introduced that whit her was Celeborn.

Yes, I as well considered that placement, but then I thought that Celebron could as well have been with the Sindarin fighters ariving late at the battle field and attacking the Feanorians when Menegroth had already fall. It is told that the brethern were in the end winners in a field of dead, but the text suggets nonetheless that some of these late attackers escaped (as far as I remember).

SP-SL-03.5: This note was repeated in UT and I used it later on, when Galadriel and Celeborn returned to Lindon. But that can be discussed.

SP-SL-04: Actually I tend to agree to your choice to postpone it to part 3. I included it here because when we discussed it first as a part the chapter about the Voyage of Eärendil, we discovered that the time of such a journey as these happy mariners make can only be the Second Age between the main return of the exiles at the beginn of the Age and the time when the visits of Eressean Eldar to Númenor stopped, I suppose. And in that time span this place seemed to me the best fitting. But the idea of placing it in part 3 didn't come to my mind.

SP-SL-07: Repeating this sentence is no option. And to use the complete section here as well not good, since the reason for Orophers northward movement will is told after this placement. To use the complete section later is an option, but I found it desierable to give these excamples of the Sindarin leaders establishing realms among the Silvian Elves.

SP-SL-08.5: Good find! This is nice addition that I missed.

SP-SL-12.7: This does not work for me. In RGEO we have ban on Galadriels return. Since RGEO is a high priority source, we can not here creat a text that would denie the ban. I tried to circumfent that question in my version, so it might be that I failed. If that is so, we have edit any passage out that does sound like there was a possibilty for return of Galadriel at this stage in the history.

SP-SL-15: To replace Amroth with Celebrian would creat an unknow fact in Middel-earth, which is clearly against our rules. So we either state the fact that her birth place is unknown, for which I tried to use Christophers 'comment' or we skip that sentence.

SP-SL-25.5 & SP-SL-25.7: Good find! But I don't think that {adopting}[learning] does help. I have to search about this a bit longer, but think we have passages describing the slow process from the Sindarin intruders adopting Silvian speech over introduction of single words of Sindarin because they might better fit until the speech of Lórien and Mirkwood Elves was a kind of Sindrain dialect.

SP-SL-26.1: Agreed.

SP-SL-28: Good find.

Posted by ArcusCalion:

This is an excellent chapter, and a brilliant start to the Second Age narratives! I'm very excited to go forward on this. I apologize for the length of the post.

Thanks for the flowers! The next chapter is in preperation for posting and there is nothing for apologize for if post are long, if they are full of highly apreciated contenet.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

SP-SL-03.5: If it is used later on, then I think it is fine to leave it the way you had it.

SP-SL-04: Sounds good, I will leave it in Volume 3.

SP-SL-07: I agree that it is beneficial to mention these leaders here. I would suggest this as a solution:

SP-SL-05<LotR; Appendix B SP-SL-06 {Thranduil}[Oropher], long in{ the north of} Greenwood the Great, was one of these{.}, SP-SL-07<Editorial addtion based on The History of Galadriel and Celeborn; Appendix B as was Amdír King of Lórinand.>

This way we include the names of the Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves (which I agree we must do) without using the sentence from later on and messing up the continuity of the drafts.

SP-SL-12.7: Ahhh I see, I had forgotten about the supremacy of RGEO. You are right in your original draft in that case, and I rescind my suggestion.

SP-SL-15: I see now your reasoning, but I think it is better to leave the sentence off entirely then, instead of to include CT's commentary.

SP-SL-25.5/25.7: I think this change is all that is required. In later drafts re included more inserts about the changes in Sindarin due to the Silvan influence, so I do not think we need to make that explicit here. I think the {adopting}[learning] change is sufficient to set the stage, and conveys the meaning.

[Findegil]

SP-SL-07: Agreed.

SP-SL-15: It is okay for me, to leave the sentence out.

SP-SL-25.5 & SP-SL-25.7: Okay, we can work in that way.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

The second age is so muddled and confusing, I think this is a great first chapter. A few comments:

1)

Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth bad laid upon him were very strong.

There's a small typo in text Arcus sent to me. It should say "bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him".

2) Both Ered Luin and Ered Lindon are both used to refer to the Blue Mountains. Are we using whatever Tolkien used in a particular text? Or is part of this project to regularize names, i.e. use Ered Luin consistently?

3) I know Celeborn is a Sindar who eventually becomes a leader of the Silvan elves in Lorien, but it seems like the added sections about Celeborn and Galadriel only describe their settling in Eregion and therefore these sections don't really seem to fit based on the title of the chapter, unless we add in their settling in Lórinand. Later in the chapter it states that Oropher resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórinand but this is not discussed in the chapter. Are we attempting to make the sequence of chapters chronological to the best of our ability? I also have some comments about the text itself, I have bolded parts I wish to discuss:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].> SP-SL-13 <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn For love of Celeborn, who had SP-SL-14 <The History of Galadriel and Celeborn escaped the sack of Doriath> and would not leave Middle-earth (and probably with some pride of her own, for she had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. When they entered that region there were many Noldor in their following, together with Grey-elves and Green-elves; and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire).

I am very confused about the timeline here. First it is stated Galdriel and Celeborn cross the Blue mountains before the end of the First Age. Then it says Celeborn returned later to Doriath. Returned from where? And hasn't Doriath already been sunk with the rest of Beleriand at this time? Then it says Galadriel and Celborn pass east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand. I'm assuming these are the Blue Mountains; haven't they already crossed them? Later it again says Galadriel crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn.

4)

and indeed greatest in skill among them was Celebrimbor, son of Curufin

There is a long section before this about the lineage of Celebrimbror, so saying he is the "son of Curufin" here seems redundant.

5) I like the addition of Amdir to this section, but I wish there was a bit more we could say about him. If the chapters aren't meant to be completely chronological, I think we could add in the two paragraphs (with some minor editorial changes) from Unfinished Tales in the "Amroth and Nimrodel" section after Christropher Tolkien says "The essay continues with a brief explanation...":

"The people of Lorien were even then {[i.e. at the time of the loss of Amroth]}...At that time Elrond went westward {[sic; probably meaning simply that he did not cross the Misty Mountains]}...Amroth, his son, became king".

[ArcusCalion]

1) thanks for the catch! I fixed it in my copy.

2) If people or places or things have more than one name, Tolkien at times uses various ones, and we have not standardized them in the past. Both these names for the range have been given and explained before, so the reader knows them already.

3) The titles for the chapters are only ever taken from Tolkien himself. We do not invent chapter titles. Therefore, we are often at a loss to find ones that fit perfectly. This one fits the best of the options available, even if it fits imperfectly.

As for the timeline it goes thus: Celeborn and Galadriel go east over the Ered Lindon -> Celeborn returns to Doriath -> Doriath is sacked by the Sons of Feanor -> War of Wrath/summons of Eonwe -> Galadriel comes back to Lindon too late to hear the summons -> she and Celeborn go back east again over the Ered Lindon into Eriador. However, you are right to point out that in the draft we have, Galadriel is said to depart east over the Ered Lindon twice here:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

I will admit to being puzzled by this. Fin, since you compiled this, can you explain what was meant here?

4) You are right, it can easily be removed to remove the redundancy.

5) I see no reason to add these paragraphs here. They describe his son Amroth, and it says 'at the time of the death of Amroth' which is the middle of the Third Age. As it stands, those paragraphs are included in the Third Age chapter 'Of the Legend of Amroth and Nimrodel.' I also wish we knew more about Amdir, but unfortunately Tolkien never wrote more than the few footnotes and tidbits mentioning him.

[Findegil]

Welcome gandalf85!

1) Thanks for pointing out that typo.
2) Interesting question. This has to be discussed. For the time being I did use whatever Tolkien used in texts that I collected together. But you are right some consistency would probably be nice. For me Ered Lindon is the later name in the Middel-earth time line, since that name must have become common when Lindon was occupied by Nolder in the second age. But however both names are clearly valid in all time so we could as well keep them parallel, as ArcusCalion suggested.
3) A very good catch! You’re a right if the title is fitting is based on the definition of the term ‘Silvan Elves’. Since Galadirel and Celeborn are Lord and Lady of Eriador, the wandering companies of that land are clearly Nandor. But it is an open question of the Nandor of Eriaodr are a subgroup of the Silvan Elves, since the first definition we get is: ‘The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin, and so never reached Beleriand or the Sea. They were thus closer akin to the Nandor (otherwise called the Green-elves) of Ossiriand, who eventually crossed the mountains and came at last into Beleriand.‘ The reference to the kinship is here to the Nandor of Ossiriand in special. I think that this makes a difference since these Beleriandic Nandor could be taken as removed from the more rustic Silvan Elves by their contact to the Noldor and specially the Sindar.
The settlement of Galdriel and Celeborn in Lorien is so much later that it would fully destroy any chronological telling, so I don’t think we can add that.
Asked by Gandalf85:

Are we attempting to make the sequence of chapters chronological to the best of our ability?

I hesitate to answer that question with ‘yes’, so ‘the best of our ability’ would be a way around any problem a clear ‘yes’ would create. Let’s put it thus: Chronological placement was a factor, but building logical entities with some cohesion was also considered.
However, even if the Nandor of Eriador are considered a separate people from the Silvan Elves, I think the title might still stand since we nicely meshed in references to the Silan Elves at the start and the end of the chapter.
I agree that this is difficult to figure out from our text, but we do not have anything better to work with and what we presented was the best arrangement we could find for the very complex movement of Galadriel and Celeborn, as ArcusCalion and I agreed on as our working hypothesis. It is not made easier by the fact that we tell part of it in retrospective, but I don’t think there is any other choice. To lift your confusion, an analysis of the text like this might help:
- ‘… Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age’
- ‘When Celeborn returned later to Doriath she [Galadriel] passed east over the mountains [Hithaeglir] and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of Eönwë[ at the End of the First Age to join him in the fight against Morgoth].’ [Nonetheless she came to Beleriand after the fight was over, see over next point.]
- ‘Celeborn, ... had escaped the sack of Doriath and would not leave Middle-earth’ [at the beginning of the Second Age, when Eönwë departed with most of the Elves of Beleriand]
- ‘For love of Celeborn ... (and probably with some pride of her own, for she [Galadriel] had been one of those eager to adventure there), she did not go West at the Downfall of Melkor, but crossed Ered Lindon with Celeborn and came into Eriador. ... and for a while they dwelt in the country about Lake Nenuial (Evendim, north of the Shire).’
4) Yes, it is redundant, but I think that is bearable at least. In other places we have once and again Gwindor son of Guillin.
5) We used these paragraphs later, so I as well think we cannot use them here.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

I will try to respond to both ArcusCalion and Findegil.

1) No problem.

2) Yeah, it seems both names are valid for all time so using them interchangeably should be fine.

3) Thanks for the explanations. I have one questions:

‘When Celeborn returned later to Doriath she [Galadriel] passed east over the mountains [Hithaeglir] and forsook Beleriand

What makes you conclude the mountains here are referring to the Misty Mountains? In Note 10 of Chapter VI of HoME 12 where this is taken from, it states the original text read she "passed over the mountains into Eriador ere the coming of Fionwe" but was changed to "passed east over the mountains and forsook Beleriand". It seems clear in the original text that the mountains referred to are the Ered Luin. It is not as explicit in the second text, but the statement "forsook Beleriand" makes me think the mountains are still the Ered Luin. You're right, Galadriel and Celeborn's movements are incredibly complex, I think mostly owing to Tolkien's constantly changing conceptions.

4) It's fine either way, it just seemed redundant to me so close to the discussion of his heritage.

5) The reason why I tried to add in some more about Amdir is because he fits the chapter title (he is a Sindarin prince of the Silvan elves). But I couldn't find any text which would fit nicely into the chapter. I think just having the brief mention of him as you originally had it is the best way to go.

[ArcusCalion]

3) I am actually with gandalf here Fin. Perhaps we can leave out this portion? We do not need to explicitly mention her crossing of 'the mountains' (which to you mean the Hithaeglir), as leaving it out would not take a stance either way. perhaps like this:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}SP-SL-10.5 <moved from below and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands>.> SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she {passed}remained east {over}of the mountains {and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands}; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

This way we remove any confusion, and also take no stance on whether Galadriel went east over the Misty Mountains. She could have from this text, so it works with both sides of any debate.

[Findegil]

The detailed discussion of these points done before we made the text given in this thread was started in this thread in 'The Books' Forum: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. But since in that forum other priority rules are applied the real research was done in the thread Galadriel and Celeborn. It might be worth rereading these threads again before take any new decision.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Yeah, I assumed this chapter might work better in context along with the "Galadriel and Celeborn" chapter which I haven't reviewed yet. I will try to look over this chapter again after reading "Galadriel and Celeborn".

[gandalf85]

After reading over the "Galadriel and Celeborn" thread, I can see why you assumed Galadriel crossed over the Misty Mountains and I agree. I think we should make this explicit in this chapter since in the current draft it is very ambiguous:

SP-SL-11 <Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12 <HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she passed east over the {mountains} [Misty Mountains] and forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

[Findegil]

As you have surely marked, gandalf85, Galadriel and Celeborn is not a thread about a chapter but a preliminary discussion about the couple and all their movements, in which I tried to get a kind of a working basis for the production of the drafts.
Making the crossing of the Misty Mountains explicit would force our interpretation of the famous sentence in the LotR on our reader. In questions like this where the facts are not fully clear we normally avoid this. As long as there is a doubt or another interpretation possible (as it clearly is in this case) we should try to make our text ambiguity enough to allow all possible interpretation of the sources.
Actually I had hoped to generate different possible timelines in the thread Galadriel and Celeborn. But it didn’t work out in that way.
Since the sentence and it use here as meaning the Misty Mountians is already borderline tour rules, I would think rather to change it in this way:

But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age{; and when they received the permission of the Valar to return into the West they rejected it}.> SP-SL-11<Editorial addition based on the head note to ‘Concerning Galadirel and Celeborn’ {Celeborn “escaped the sack of Doriath”}When Celeborn returned later to Doriath> SP-SL-12c<HoME12; Part 1; Ch. VI; T4; Note 10 she {passed east over the mountains and} forsook Beleriand, and first of all the Noldor came to the inner lands; and too late she heard the summons of {Fionwë}[Eönwë].>

Inthat way we leave it open if she crossed the Misty Mountains but still keep her exploring Middle-earth east of the Ered Lindon.
But I am still very hesitant about that. As long as we do not name the mountains, it could be assumed that Galadriel first followed Celebron back to Beleriand and then crossed again Ered Lindon to ‘forseek Beleriand’.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

That works for me