Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of the chapter 2 in the part The Black Years which is named Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men.

In this chapter Of Dwarves and Men (DM) is the basic text.

The editing markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

DM-SL-zz for Dwarves and Men, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

BY-HL-05<
Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and MenDM-SL-01{.(23)}
DM-SL-02{In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had 'awakened' were remembered; ... all the kindreds shared a common language.(26)
But in}In far distant days the Dwarves were secretive {[struck out: - and none more so than the Longbeards -]} and had few dealings with the Elves. ... to the marvellous skill which these reached before the decline and dwindling of the Khazâd.
This system developed slowly, ... and though they were the most redoubtable warriors of all the Speaking Peoples they were glad to make alliance with Men.[Footnote to the text: The Dwarves multiplied slowly; but Men in prosperity and peace more swiftly than even the Elves.]
The Men with whom they were thus associated were for the most part akin in race and language with the tall and mostly fair-haired people of the 'House of Hador', ... and at first had regarded the Dwarves askance, fearing that they were under the Shadow (as they said).[Footnote to the text: For they had met some far to the East who were of evil mind. DM-SL-03{[This was a later pencilled note. On the previous page of the typescript my father wrote at the same time, without indication of its reference to the text but perhaps arising from the mention (p. 301) of the awakening of the eastern kindreds of the Dwarves: 'Alas, it}It seems probable that (as Men did later) the Dwarves of the far eastern mansions (and some of the nearer ones?) came under the Shadow of Morgoth and turned to evil.{']}] But they were glad of the alliance, for they were more vulnerable to the attacks of the {Orks}[Orcs]: ... and many were skilled and fearless riders.[Footnote to the text: No Dwarf would ever mount a horse willingly, nor did any ever harbour animals, not even dogs.]
These would often ride far afield as scouts and keep watch on movements of their enemies; ... and there grew up in that region between Dwarves and Men respect and esteem, and sometimes warm friendship.
It was at that time, when the Dwarves were associated with Men both in war and in the ordering of the lands that they had secured,[Footnote to the text: For a time. The Númenorëans had not yet appeared on the shores of Middle-earth, and the foundations of the Barad-dur had not yet been built. It was a brief period in the dark annals of the Second Age, yet for many lives of Men the Longbeards controlled the Ered Mithrin, Erebor, and the Iron Hills, and all the east side of the Misty Mountains as far as the confines of Lorien; while the Men of the North dwelt in all the adjacent lands as far south as the Great Dwarf Road that cut through the Forest (the Old Forest Road was its ruinous remains in the Third Age) and then went North-east to the Iron Hills.DM-SL-04{ [As with so much else in this account, the origin of the Old Forest Road in 'the Great Dwarf Road', which after traversing Greenwood the Great led to the Iron Hills, has never been met before.]}] that the Longbeards adopted the speech of Men for communication with them. ... the name they gave to the prime ancestor of the Longbeards and by which he was known to Elves and Men. (It appears to have been simply a word for 'king' in the language of the Men of the North of the Second Age.)DM-SL-05{(33)} The names of the Longbeards otherwise are not known in lists going back before the ruin of Moria (Khazad-dûm), Third Age 1980; but they are all of the same kind, sc. in a long 'dead' Mannish language.
This can only be explained by supposing that these names from the early Second Age had been adopted by the Dwarves, ... In this way they soon became to later Men specially Dwarvish names,[Footnote to the text: Somewhat similar to the way in which the 'runes' of Elvish origin were widely regarded by Men in the Third Age as a Dwarvish mode of writing.] and the Longbeards acquired a vocabulary of traditional names peculiar to themselves, while still keeping their true 'inner' names completely secret.>

Some comments to the editing:
BY-HL-05: I think there is not much to be said about the title found in DM.

DM-SL-01: A footnote with a comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

DM-SL-02: The first part was excessively used in the First Age part and is therefore here removed.

DM-SL-03: A comment of Christopher Tolkien in side this footnote is to be removed. So I think we should keep the information about the eastern Dwarves coming ‘under the shadow’.

DM-SL-04: Again a comment of Christopher to be removed from the footnote.

DM-SL-05: A footnote with a comment of Christopher Tolkien removed.

If not commented on, the footnote to text introduce by the Author will remain as footnotes in our text.
With this we reached the place where my drafts change for the first time from Middle-earth to Númenor. Up to this point we have more or less only ‘set the scene’, and we will go on in the same spirit with island of the Dunedain.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

In my editing for the Fading Years, I used almost all of Appendix A in order to do so, as I explained in the Outline thread. During this, I found a piece that I think fits best right at the very beginning of this chapter:

DM-SL-00.5 <Appendix A Concerning the beginning of the Dwarves strange tales are told both by the Eldar and by the Dwarves themselves; but since these things lie far back beyond our days little is said of them here. Dúrin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the Seven Fathers of their race, and the ancestor of all the kings of the Long-beards. He slept alone, until in the deeps of time and the awakening of that people he came to Azanulbizar, and in the caves above Kheled-zâram in the east of the Misty Mountains he made his dwelling, where afterwards were the Mines of Moria renowned in song.
There he lived so long that he was known far and wide as Dúrin the Deathless. Yet in the end he died before the Elder Days had passed, and his tomb was in Khazad-dûm; but his line never failed, and five times an heir was born in his House so like to his Forefather that he received the name of Dúrin. He was indeed held by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned; for they have many strange tales and beliefs concerning themselves and their fate in the world.>

After this, I thus no longer needed to delete the 'But' at the beginning of your draft, so I left it in.

Besides this, I agree to all of the changes (not that there are many.)

[Findegil]

So far I have been very reluctant to use material from the Appendizes of LotR if it could be avoided. I always saw 'Translation from the Elvish' as complemetary to LotR. Therefore our text should stand beside that work and not 'candibalies' it.
But I see the problem that we might face with that police in the part about the Third Age and I agree that with the Appandizes we could argue that these were drawn in short from works that 'Translation from the Elvish' should contain in their fullest available version.

So in the end I have to think a bit longer about this addition, and I would very much like to here other oppinions about the above mentioned policy and the issue at hand.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I do agree that we need a full discussion on the matter. Gondowe and I are both in agreement that the Appendices (A and B at least) must be used in the drafts of this Volume. Aiwendil and Lindil have not given their opinions on the matter, however, but I fear that they are not readily available to do so. This was, as far as I know, the only addition in the Second Age material I made from Appendix A, so I do not think this problem will become pressing until the Third Age drafts are reached.

[Findegil]

DM-SL-00.5: In this special case I see an easy way out: We could use the first draft version of the text from Appendix B of LotR:

BY-HL-05<
Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and MenDM-SL-01{.(23)}
DM-SL-00.5b <HoME 12; Part 1; Cha. IX.; Sub-Cha. (iv): Durin’s Folk Durin was the name of one of the fathers of all the race of the Dwarves. In the deeps of time and the beginning of that people he came to Azanulbizar, the Dimrill Dale, and in the caves above {Kibil-nala [> }Kheled-zaram{](1)}, the Mirrormere, in the east of the Misty Mountains, he made his dwelling, where after were the Mines of Moria renowned in song. There long he dwelt: so long that he was known far and wide as Durin the Deathless. Yet he died indeed at the last ere the Elder Days were ended, and his tomb was in Moria; but his line never failed, from father to son, and ever and anon {[> thrice](2)} there was born an heir to that house so like unto his Forefather that he received the name of Durin, being held indeed by the Dwarves to be the Deathless that returned. It was after the end of the First Age that the great power and wealth of Moria began, for it was enriched by many folk and much lore and craft, when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost were ruined in the change of the western world and the breaking of Morgoth.>DM-SL-02{In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age ...

The differences are small, but for me that would be sufficient.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I like that, this works best.

[gandalf85]

I took a look at the chapter, I don't have many comments. Regarding the previous discussion in this thread, I like Findegil's idea that "Translations" should be complementary to "LotR" and if possible, shouldn't cannibalize large sections from the appendices. I realize this may be impractical for some sections, I like Findegil's suggestion of mining from the early drafts if we can. A few other comments/general questions about the project:

1) For us super nerds, it is obvious that Durin was a king of the Longbeards. But it may not be obvious to a general audience. I'm assuming Bilbo would want his "Translations" to be accessible and informative to a general audience. Is this a goal of the project? The first paragraph discusses During without any mention that he was the King of the Longbeards. I suggest the following small change:

Durin was the name of one of the fathers of all the race of the Dwarves, and the ancestor of all the kings of the {Long-beards}[Longbeards].

I think this addition sets up the rest of the chapter in a nicer way. It does cannibalize a small section of the appendix of LotR, but only a very small section.

2) This chapter has a ton of footnotes, and from what I've seen of the other drafts, they do not have as many footnotes. Do we have some "in-universe" explanation for why this chapter has no many footnotes? Who added the footnotes? Bilbo himself? Or maybe Gimli? Or one of the other hobbits at the bidding of Gimli? I remember we decided not to use a frame-narrative to discuss where the different texts came from, but maybe in the case of footnotes we should add in some comment of where these came from.

[Findegil]

1) I like that change. I will name it DM-00.7 and provide of course the source information. But the change from Long-beards to Longbeards is the wrong way around. In such matters LotR rules therefore I added the following general change throughout:
{Longbeards}[Long-beards] per LotR if the Dwarves of Moria a meant.

2) I don’t think we should comment on this. Our texts show a very big variety of stills and tons on which we can do nothing and on which we did not comment at all. As long as the footnotes are from the JRR Tolkien and do not create a problem with our editing (as did the famous footnote about Yavanna) we should simply let them stand.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

2) OK, that makes sense to me.