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#1 | |||
Princess of Skwerlz
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Within the first page of this chapter, Sam, Frodo and Gollum’s location changes very rapidly, from the bleak and barren vicinity of the Black Gate to the more pleasant area of Ithilien. The oppressive influence of Mordor lessens quickly as the red eye of the tower’s light disappears. Not only the hobbits’ hearts, but also the emotional atmosphere of the chapter lightens considerably. The point of view is neutral narration in part and seen through Sam’s eyes for much of the story.
I get the feeling that the two overlap in the description of Ithilien – the naming of so many plants and the vivid description of the scents and sights definitely sound like something a gardener would relate. I love this sentence (which is certainly narrative, since it uses vocabulary we wouldn’t associate with Sam): Quote:
We get a feeling of refuge in this chapter; though Ithilien is no longer a safe place, it seems safer than the lands they’ve travelled through previously. It also offers clean water and nourishment, which is a parallel to previous refuges the hobbits and their fellow Fellowship members have enjoyed. The fact that nourishment is a major plot point in this chapter shows its hobbit-centricity. Another element of refuge is sleep, and we find Frodo sleeping deeply and restfully here. We get a wonderful glimpse of him through Sam’s eyes (with the more elaborate description of the narrator included). The conversations between Sam and Gollum are great favourites with many fans, and book readers were pleased to have them included in the movie. The “taters/Po-ta-toes” are probably the lines most mentioned. They show Gollum in a more sympathetic light and bring humour into the tale. A favourite line of mine: Quote:
Then comes potential danger - discovery and captivity by Faramir’s Rangers. This scene is much less hostile in the book than in the movie, characterized by courtesy on both sides, despite the mutual mistrust of strangers. This passage fills in some story elements, showing a new aspect of the battle of Gondor against Mordor (guerrilla warfare) and connecting Boromir and the Rangers, though not yet in detail. What makes the strongest impression on you – the Oliphaunt/Műmak, the close look at a fallen foeman, the battle action, or the conversations? I enjoy the bits of humour that we find in this encounter, especially chuckling over the Gondorians’ speculation on the nature of the hobbits: Quote:
There are many interesting questions to ponder and discuss – I look forward to your contributions!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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Laconic Loreman
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I only have a small bit to add, I wonder if that passage when Sam sees that dead Southron on the ground was Tolkien reminiscing...
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I think the importance of Sam in this moment is to counter Mablung and Damrod's conversation earlier... Quote:
Where Sam comes in and acts as the neutral thought. He doesn't know about these Southrons, he doesn't know about Faramir and his rangers. As Estelyn points out Sam is the neutral narrator of this chapter. He doesn't give you the biased thinking of "They must be evil, they are serving Sauron." He gives us the other possibilities of wondering whether these men actually were "truly evil," or were they sort of forced to do it? Because of fear? They were lied to? Wealth? Power?
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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#4 | |
Laconic Loreman
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We do instantly know that these Rangers are good (possibly even better company then some other Gondorians), and I think that is why Frodo and Sam are so "courteous" to them. Frodo's only fear would be if they find out about the Ring, but we don't even get a sense of that. Frodo has escaped "the eye," and is relieved to come upon such an admirable group of men. The movies I think portrayed it as if Frodo and Sam were "captured," which I thought was a wrong way to go about it.
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#5 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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I don't think this scene is in the book because Tolkien was a pacifist, & wanted to make out that all war is evil & morally wrong. My understanding is that Tolkien felt that, human nature being what it is, war is most likely inevitable. But he was a man who had seen war first hand & knew what it involved. Perhaps this is one of the things that keeps drawing us back to LotR - for all that its marketed as a 'fantasy' story it confronts us with some pretty harsh facts: like, for instance, while sometimes war is unavoidable (because some things are so precious they have to be preserved & other things so Wrong that they have to be stopped), at the same time war is ugly & real human beings will be hurt, maimed & killed as a consequence. We can't use that fact to avoid our responsibilities & let the Hitlers & Stalins have a free hand, but at the same time we can't dehumanise the 'enemy' to such an extent that we refuse to see that they are human beings like ourselves, with hopes, fears & dreams - just like ourselves.... |
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#6 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
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What struck me particularly from the description of Ithilien, on rereading it yesterday was how medditerranean it sounds. And having also reread the biography yesterday, I don't think he had visited that area at this point ( though I could be mistaken). I know he visited Venice AFTER LOTR was published and he thought it was like his idea of Old Gondor/ Pelargir. If I am right it is amazing how evocative this description is especially given that this was effectively pre-television and even colour film was fairly poor quality.
If this scenery is evoked by no more than thorough research in to the flora of an area then it is remarkable - especially since it is such a loving description of a landscape, fairly different to the typical English "patchwork quilt" of field, wood and hedgerow which always seems so close to Tolkien's heart. More I would say but it will have to wait.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#7 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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I like the moment when Sam thinks about the dead warrior he sees.
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Overall I love this part of Frodo and Sam's journey. When I first read the book I loved this part because it was unsuspected. The last thing I expected was for Frodo to find friends here.Let alone Boromir's brother. When re-reading it I like this part because its tone is so different from the darkness that Frodo and Sam have gone through and still have to go through.
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#8 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Playing in Peoria
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Tolkien and Race
Not to open a can of worms, but this chapter seems to cry out for the discussion of Tolkien and race. I don't have access to his letters, but many on this board do, so maybe some of you can shed some light on this discussion.
The simple facts of the matter are that all the "good guys" in LotR are white, and the "bad guys" are largely black/asian (those that aren't orcs, of course). I know that the way he had ME set up the northwestern part of the continent was the closest to Valinor and therefore had the most access to elves/divine influence. The south and east (blacks/asians) were under the sway of Sauron simply by accident of their location. This racial situation has been decried by some pundits, and contemporary fantasy is still often very anglo-centric (thought not necessarily in emulation of Tolkien) So, any thoughts? Any illumination from the good Professor's letters on this subject? Enquiring minds want to know.
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#9 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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We have had several discussions on Tolkien and racism in the past. I used the search to find threads on the topic and came up with these, among others:
Racism in LotR? Racism and Tolkien Lord of the Rings labelled racist Can the book be considered racist? Are Tolkien books racist? I would suggest that general thoughts on the subject be posted on one of those threads and that only those that pertain directly to this chapter be posted here.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#10 |
Pilgrim Soul
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It is easy to draw these parralels but since this is not the place for full discussion, I would say that 50 years on our minds are tuned to different wavelengths - we are far more sensitive to these things now. In short, I think the discriptions here are essentially a coincidence of geography ( as he has taken care to give ithilien appropriate flora so he gives the people of the south and east appropriate characteristics) and serve to highlight how strange and exotic the swertings are to the hobbits. I see little rascism in the thoughts of Sam quothed by Lathriel. Despite the superficial differences; the similarities, the common humanity is clearly recognised.
The fact that this is a battleof Men against Men is interesting to me, because of the problems posed by the nature of orcs. I can't be scientific about this but I get the impression that Tolkien is much more frugal about killing men - they tend to flee in terror rather thanbe slaughtered wholesale like the orcs (the implication that the orcs ARE irredeemably bad) but that too is an issue for other threads I guess.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#11 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Think for a moment. The three must travel unseen, by stealth. They thus have no opposition to overcome, no direct confrontations. Or at least, there must be few and far between. Many sightings of orcs is possible, and of the Nazgul, but there cannot be actual contact or fighting, for that would destroy the secrecy which the plot demands. So, not much chance for lots of battle set up and description when the prime motivation is avoidance of contact. The second possibility for action lies in the interaction between the three characters. We have some of this, definitely, but how to extend this over ten chapters? Again, something else is needed. And not just constant discussion of foraging. That something else, it seems to me, has to be the extensive description of the terrain. The land becomes the formidable opponent, but it also provides a way to develop this part of the story. Ithilien provides the perfect place for such lovingly detailed passages as well because of it history. That history also provides the opportune place for one of the rare encounters, by those who still struggle to preserve the place, against the encroachments of the Enemy. Again, it cannot be Frodo and Sam and Gollem who engage with opponents, for they must remain hidden. Sooner or later, Tolkien had to bring in a new batch of good guys to do the fighting for them. So, all that tamarisk and terebinth, the olives and the bay, the juniper, the saxifrage and stonecrop is simply and plainly a plot device. ![]() ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 03-25-2005 at 03:31 PM. |
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#12 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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#13 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Oh BB, I thought the cynical "it's just a plot device" line was my speciality! Where is the romance? :P But at one level, I do agree that these chapters are thin on action and the CbC is a good way of making me look closer at chapters which despite my abiding love for Faramir, I generally skim through and which proved my nemesis on my first reading ( Like the child of Sam and Frodo's imagining, at 10, I found the fringes of Mordor too dark and didn't want to read anymore, and I had forgotten the intricacies of the other plot by the time it came to rejoin Gandalf and Pippin ).
That said, I do think Ithilien has more significance. Much of it of course, linked to Faramir, one of the characters who emerged from the story rather than as a conscious act of will on the part of Tolkien. There are paralels with the hobbit's meeting with Aragorn, chief of the Rangers of the North. Faramir, captain of the rangers of the south wears a literal mask but is soon removed. He is gold which does glister.... he is a soldier and a loremaster, scion of the noblest houses in the realm (Stewards and Dol Amroth), a man in whom the blood of Numenor runs true after years of degeneration. Also he is walking, disguied in the land which he will one day rule. However whereas with Aragorn, it is Frodo whos has to make the leap of faith to let him join them, here Faramir has to make the choice ot let Frodo go. Unsurprisingly there is more I would say of Faramir - but I think it belongs in the next chapter.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#14 | |
Dead Serious
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The actions of the Orks seem highly reminiscent of so many people's attitudes and actions towards the environment: a great big playground/trashcan for their own personal enjoyment. It's well known that Tolkien read Orkish attitude in a great deal of modern society, particularly in the area of machines and technology. Have we got another example of modern Orkishness here? Actually, when Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are following the Ork trail, I am struck in much the same way.
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#15 | |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
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You know, after reading Boromir88's and davem's points about Sam and his musing over the fallen Southron, it occurred to me that perhaps Sam sympathized in part because he saw himself (and Frodo and Gollum, for that matter) as though they were reluctant invaders themselves. Seeing how the Rangers felt about the crew marching north to help attack Gondor, perhaps Sam wondered if he might somehow be viewed similarly.
Regarding this most recent mention of Frodo’s more peaceful sleep as well as Sam’s pity, I would bring forward again a quote from the preceding chapter. I think it is important to this discussion and not all of us have been able to keep up with the threads. Quote:
It is interesting to note the difference between the landscape surrounding the Morannon and Ithilien, the first deserted by Men and second still frequented by them. Granted the area by Morannon probably never was lovely, it’s description seems almost lunar compared to very real beauty of Ithilien. Where the Black Gate is bleak and sickly to all five senses, Tolkien description of the rangers’ former homeland brings the place alive to all of the reader’s five senses. This description seems to highlight the beauty of Middle-Earth, contrasting it with the devastation that Sauron (and Melkor before him) would have it become. It is as if as long as Men do not give up ‘the good fight’, things may be marred but still possess an innate beauty. To tell you the truth, I would not know a plot device from and egg beater, but I do enjoy this chapter immensely, regardless of, or perhaps because of, my literary ignorance. Excellent observations on the parallels between the meeting of Faramir and the meeting of Aragorn, Mithalwen! I don’t believe I would ever have put that together for myself. Thanks. Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 03-28-2005 at 05:54 AM. |
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#16 | |
Relic of Wandering Days
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Ah! One other thing I had forgot to mention....
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#17 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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This chapter made me realize something. Throughout LOTR a theme that keeps on re-occuring is that of a place that was once beautiful but which is now corrupted or in its demise.
Ithillien counts of course because as the hobbits travel through the land they see pieces of buildings that must once have been very beautiful. Also you have Minas Morgul which was once Minas Ithil but has now been corrupted by the Nazgul. You also have the city of Gondor which is also losing some of its former glory. Plus of course the demise of the elves, and them leaving Middle Earth. So overall you see a world that is losing its former beauty. For me this adds a feeling of hopelessness and it also makes me wish fervently that the world can come back to its former glory. Meanwhile you realize that this can only be done with the destruction of the ring. This can also be reated to the world of today, when older people always complain about how the world used to be better when they were young. I certainly get that feeling when I hear my grandparents talk about what they used to do when they were kids.
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#18 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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I will, however, take issue with your comments about "such frivolous things as gardens with water features". Of course any social habit or custom can be trivialised and sentimentalised, but gardens from time immemorial have had substantive cultural functions, as have water gardens and water features. One need only consider the traditions of water gardens in Middle eastern culture to recognise the significance of water to the human faculty of sub-creation. The loss of the hanging gardens of Babylon and the cedars of Lebanon stand as important cultural icons about loss. It suggests a lonely remnant of a once highly developed, sophisticated culture now lost. I'm sure, however, that you could find frivolous garden features at the Chelsea Flower Show! ![]()
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#19 | |
A Mere Boggart
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For a culture to be able to indulge in creating such spaces, it must have the time to do so, which would mean time not devoted to war and defence such as it is at the time of the War of the Ring. So if such gardens are indeed a remnant of lost cultures, then these cultures must have lived in peace to allow them the opportunity to sub-create. This makes it all the more sad that such things have been destroyed, as it is not only the 'thing' itself which has been lost, but the peace which allowed it to be created in the first place. It's interesting that at this point along the journey, where we see a lost culture, we also have the entrance of Faramir, a cultured man who has been required to live his life out in the 'wilds', in military service. Not only are the products of a fine culture going to seed, but also the finest minds are in danger of being lost.
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#20 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A garden represents peace,healing,and rest. Frodo and Sam find all this in Ithillien. They find peace and for a moment put their worries behind them, they also find rest. Especially Frodo who finally after many days is able to sleep soundly. This whole experience heals them a little and prepares them for the further hardships that are ahead.
Personally I believe that Frodo and Sam might not have made it if they hadn't gone through Ithillien. They really needed Faramir's help.But I think that I'm beginning to run into the next chapter so I'll just keep my thoughts till later.
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#21 |
Deadnight Chanter
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Short remark
On a symbolical plane:
Recurrent term 'garden' in the chapter and the description of Ithilien made curious connection - that is how Eden might have looked like after the Fall - still retaining remnants of its former beauty, yet already poisoned and on the road to decay. I may be reading to deep into the book, of course.
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#22 |
Pilgrim Soul
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As long as you don't imply that Faramir is the serpent! Or I may have to avail myself of Fordim's gauntlet. As for Lathiriel - your comments have an extra resonance if you think it will be in Ithilien that the hobbits will start to recover from their ordeal.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#23 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Mithalwen I hadn't thought that far ahead but it indeed also works for what I'm trying to say.
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#24 |
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"Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" is the name of the chapter, but the passage it draws itself from gets the least attention on this thread. Fair enough: Ithilien and Faramir and Mumakil are all new and exciting, while we're four chapters in to the relationship of Sam and Gollum; nonetheless, I think there was some missed opportunity here to look at our trio of travellers. The dialogue over the coneys and taters is an entertaining diversion, but it also represents the high point of trust and camaraderie between Sam and Gollum, when Sam has sort of become used to him and before Gollum thinks himself betrayed at Henneth Annun. Sam's internal thoughts about Gollum's well-being as the battle begins are of a piece with this.
Nonetheless, it's interesting that Tolkien names the chapter for this incident. I don't think there's been much discussion about chapter names, because most are pretty straightforward: "Lothlorien" or "The Council of Elrond" for example. Others are more thematic, but still make sense as the major scene or theme of the chapter, such as "A Conspiracy Unmasked" or "The Taming of Smeagol." To this stage, however, there's no chapter title that's quite as... synechdoche like... as this. Is Tolkien telling us what he thinks the most important part of this chapter is, or did he just think "Ithilien" was too boring a title? Side-note: "dishevelled dryad loveliness" is one of those beautiful Tolkien phrases that has become a staple of my wordhoard.
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