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#1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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The Rohirrim and the four remaining Fellowship members leave Edoras with a growing feeling of doom - darkness and heavy air reflect the near-hopeless situation. Yet the presence of two persons gives hope - Théoden and Gandalf - and dawn is said to bring hope.
The Battle of Helm's Deep only takes up a few pages in the book, though the account is packed full of dramatic action. There is a brief break for a parley scene with Aragorn, then the fighting continues. Finally dawn brings the rescue - Erkenbrand, Gandalf, and the trees. How important is this chapter to you? Which characters and storylines do you like best? Do you appreciate the battle scenes?
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 10-24-2005 at 02:40 PM. |
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#2 |
Dread Horseman
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#3 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Just going to jump in here before even reviewing the chapter carefully and fully to say that I love the Battle of Helms Deep. Esty is quite right in pointing out how brief the battle is -- every time I read the book I am struck by how little 'space' the battle is afforded in the narrative, despite its immense importance to the story.
The one thing about this chapter that's always bothered me is, I must admit, the head count (heh heh) kept by Gimli and Legolas in their competition. There's two things about it: first, it seems a bit blood thirsty of them to be competing at all; second, I've never fought in a medieval campaign, but I have fought with a sword (you know, tournaments, with safety equipment and everything) and there is just no way that one fighter can be so overwhelmingly good that he can wipe out that many opponents. And certainly not two: either the orcs are incompetent or Gimli and Legolas are getting a bit of 'help' from the author. I only mention this as it is one of the only points in the book where the enchantment fails for me. But more of substance when I have reviewed the chapter.
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#4 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I liked the head count. Tolkien often has his heroes slay unrealistic numbers of enemies (Hurin slew something like 70 Trolls in one part of a battle). My favourite characters are always the insanely great ones, I have never been a fan of "realistic" characters that "the reader can relate to". Something that can cause somewhat of a problem in my fiction writing class where the Professor wants you to do it a certain way, the way that modern writers agree is the "right" way.
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I have just finished re-reading the Two Towers and I was thinking of the movie so when I read the chapter Helm's Deep I was once again surprised at how short the battle is. (Especially compared to the movie)
I was reading at a fast pace and suddenly there was the end of the chapter!!! In this chapter you can see that the old myths and legends inspired Tolkien. In those myths the main heroes would always kill an improbable number of enemies which is exactly what Gimli and Legolas do. However I like their game because it gives the reader heart. At the beginning of the battle you are thinking, oh no how are they ever going to win this? However, because of the game you begin to forget about the hoplelessness of the battle. But my favourite moment is when the horn is blown and Theoden rides forth with Aragorn, now if you want heroics,you got it. Then suddenly Erkenbrand comes as well and that is like the cherry that is put on top of the whipped cream and ice cream.
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#6 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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This chapter serves as something of a climax for book III. It's interesting to compare this with the climaxes of books I and II, each of which occurs in the final chapter of its respective book. This climax is greater, though, than either Frodo's escape from the Nazgul at the fords or the breaking of the Fellowship, and this may account for the extra space given to the denouement.
As Estelyn and Fordim have both noted, the battle itself is rather short - about 9 pages in my edition, with 16 total in the chapter. This is a beautiful illustration of the principle that, for maximal impact, it is the build-up to an important event that must be emphasized, not the event itself. We have been slowly building up to this climax more or less since we first encountered the Rohirrim in III-2, and more rapidly building up to it since the previous chapter. This is the same thing that was done in II-5, where the actual appearance of the Balrog takes up very little space, but the whole chapter builds toward it. Perhaps the prime example of this technique is still to come - in "The Siege of Gondor". This is one of two major battle scenes in the novel (the other being the Battle of the Pelennor Fields), and, to my taste, this is the better written. I think that action scenes, and particularly battle scenes, in both books and movies, are harder to do than is generally thought. How can an author convey an event of such scope? And how can it be made interesting? For combat alone is not interesting; in fact, it can easily become very dull and tedious. I think that Tolkien found perfect answers to those questions in this chapter. The way to convey a battle is to give it a plot. It is not really a single piece of action. It is rather a series of dramatic events linked together. The narrative of the battle must have an overall shape, just as any narrative must, with its high points and low points, its moments of suspense and moments of surprise, and, most of all, the same forward momentum that a large-scale plot has. That is what Tolkien does here. We have first the arrival at Helm's Deep and the preparation; then the rearguard is driven in from the Dike; then the host of the enemy approaches and sends arrows over the walls; then Aragorn, Eomer, and Gimli make their sortie; twice then the enemy creeps into the culvert, the second time using Saruman's blasting powder; etc. Where someone with less talent would simply write a battle scene, Tolkien provides a series of events linked into a battle story. About the game between Legolas and Gimli. Fordim makes two points, the second of which I'll consider first: Quote:
As for Fordim's first complaint: Quote:
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#7 | |||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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We might think Anduril is ‘just’ a sword but in this chapter we see it presented heroically, in terms of what it symbolises, and also in terms of its heritage and nobility. In the previous chapter, Aragorn is told to leave it outside Meduseld as Theoden will not have weapons carried in his hall by visitors. In Aragorn’s refusal more is displayed than simply his inexperience in matters of diplomacy; his obstinacy also displays the symbolic significance of Anduril, not just to Aragorn, but to Middle Earth as a whole.
The full significance of the weapon becomes apparent in this chapter: Quote:
But the cries of the men as Anduril is wielded also reveal their hope, perhaps that a ‘hero’ of old has returned, certainly that the heroism of old has returned: Quote:
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#8 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Another chapter in which we witness Hama's adoration for Gandalf....
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Theoden is starting to doubt Gandalf's counsel, however he is still willing to listen to it. Despite his uncertainty, he basically steps down to Gandalf. Whether Theoden sees Gandalf's counsel as foolish or not, he still steps down, and listens to it. Another difference from Denethor. Even when he is in doubt of Gandalf's words to meet Saruman head on, he still makes the decision to ride out, not just to Helm's Deep, but to what he believes the last moments of his life. "I will bid men sound Helm's horn, and I will ride forth." |
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#9 |
Pilgrim Soul
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"I fret in this prison," said Theoden. "If I could have set a spear in rest, riding before my men upon the field, maybe I could have felt again the joy of battle, and so ended. But I serve little purpose here."
Just a quick point here - what similarity between the feelings of Theoden and Eowyn - feeling trapped and wishing to escape in battle. I never really noticed it before.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#10 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I was struck by what may seem at first a throwaway line:
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Then we have the 'fire of Orthanc'. This is gunpowder, obviously. It is the source of Gandalf's fireworks, but turned to destruction. Effectively what we see is 'Art' turned into the Machine. Fireworks are ephemeral, they burst in light & noise & then pass into nothing. Saruman's 'blasting fire' is designed to desroy, to reshape the world. It blasts even the works of the 'giants' into nothingness. This is the beginning of the modern world, or of modern warfare - if they aren't the same thing. (Well, that's not strictly true, I suppose, not if we accept the early 'Fall of Gondolin', where 'tanks' are employed by Morgoth.) This is an intrusion of the 'primary world' into the 'secondary world'. The 'blasting fires' of WW1 have intruded into Middle earth. In so many ways Saruman embodies the ‘modern world’. He is responsible for bombs & factories, deforestation, genetic engineering & double-think. He is a ‘man’ born outside his time. He belongs in the primary world of the 20th century, not in the secondary world of Middle earth. The peoples of Middle earth mayl win out over Saruman the wizard, but what he represents will in the end win out over Middle earth. He will ultimately win out over Sauron himself. Sauron is a Mythological figure, & belongs in Middle earth. Saruman is all too ‘real’, in a sense all too mundane,in his attitudes & behaviour. The glory of the Dark Ages is at an end, & that end is shown here taking root in the mythological world. The orcs may be slaughered in their thousands, but they keep on coming. Legolas & Gimli hack them down & crow about their achievement, but the orcs keep on coming. The trees may tear them limb from limb but the victory will be short lived. Helm’s Deep is a victory, but it is merely a respite in the ‘long defeat’. Quote:
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#11 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Legolas' and Gimli's contest at Helm's Deep by Athaniel.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#12 | |||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
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This chapter begins and ends with moments in which we have images of darkness and shadows, light and wind. As the Rohirrim march toward Helm’s Deep they are pursued by the shadows of Mordor:
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So we have the Shadow of Mordor at the beginning of the chapter, threatening to overwhelm the sun and take possession of the sky, but by the end of the chapter the shadows we see are those of the trees. I think that this is looking ahead to a time when, after the War, the Shadow is gone, but there remain still shadows in the world. That is, the dominating presence of Sauron (Evil) will be destroyed, along with the danger that this shadow presents to the sky and the sun (divine or eternal things that are over the earth?), but naturally there will remain “shadowy” things in the world, like the huorns, that are not Evil, but dangerous, even perilous. The shadows they cast do not threaten the sky or the sun, but those who walk into them in an Orc-like manner. But this imagery of shadow and light is not just recalled at the end, but also reversed, I think. At the beginning of the chapter the Shadow is being spread from the East by the wind of Mordor (the storm); at the end of the chapter, it is the “mounting wind” of the White Rider that drives the Orcs “like a black smoke” into the shadows of the trees. I find this fascinating – Tolkien could have so easily had the imagery around Gandalf and the trees be all about light and life and greenery (the radiance of the White Rider drove the Orcs into the verdant green of the trees; and from that dark green none ever came again?). But he chose not to do it this way; in effect, he decided that rather than setting up an absolute binary opposition of good and evil through the relatively simple and even expected dark and light imagery, he would work through the relation is a more complex way. The forces of good are still light (White Rider, the sun) but they operate to some extent in the same manner as the forces of evil (like a wind, with and through war). The other point of comparison is that both good and evil are associated with darkness and shadows: it’s just that while Sauron wants His Shadow to dominate the world, Gandalf is willing to work with the shadowy forces of the natural world: to accept them for what they are and to respect them. Sauron wants his Shadow to destroy the light; Gandalf is a figure of light who is happy to accommodate the shadows. . .because they are part of the world. One last thing that occurs to me in response to Lalwende’s point about Aragorn and Anduril. Lal asks: Quote:
But in Middle-earth this line between the false or impossible statement and the real meaning falls apart: in a way, metaphor is not compatible with magic – when Tolkien says “the trees whispered their secrets to one another” it really happens. If I said this in the ‘real’ world it would be a metaphor, but in Middle-earth it is literally true. That’s why I think that Lal’s question is both an extraordinarily good one, but also misleading, insofar as this is another instance in which something that would be metaphorical in our world is not in Middle-earth. I would suggest that the answer to each of Lal’s questions is the same: yes, yes, yes and yes. This is a world of magic in which swords glow with a divine light, but it is also a story told to people who live in the primary world, so this glow becomes a metaphor for a variety of other things. I’m not sure this is making sense. . . Inside the story, there is no metaphor around or about the blade’s glow: it really is glowing. But when we read it, in a world where there are no glowing swords, the only way to bring it into our own experience is to make it into a metaphor for something. This really is different from a text that is about a world that has no magic: for example, there are lots of accounts of Medieval battles in which soldiers’ swords were said to “smoke” with the blood of their enemies – such statements are necessarily metaphorical both inside the text and outside of it. Not so with Middle-earth: the magic of that world can only be experienced by us, in our non-magical reality, in a distant and secondary way – metaphor becomes a poor substitute for the magical reality we are reading about.
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#13 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Fordim: An interesting idea about metaphors, though I think I may disagree. You say:
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It does, then, make sense to ask whether some statement is true or is a metaphor. Either Anduril gives off light or it doesn't; and it's not inconceivable that Tolkien could have intended it not to magically shine and still have written what he wrote, intending it as a mere metaphor. To take a similar example: it is said in book V chapter 4 of the Witch-king's sword that "flames ran down the blade". Now for years I thought the Witch-king had a sword that was literally on fire. Only a few years ago did I realize that this statement follows a description of the great fires and red light out beyond the gate, in the field of Pelennor. Now when I re-read this it comes across to me quite clearly as meaning that the Witch-king's sword, raised in front of this red glare, is outlined by the fires behind. Now I could be wrong - maybe the sword really is on fire. But clearly it is at least possible (and, I think, probable) that the statement is not literally true. |
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#14 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
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#15 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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#16 |
Laconic Loreman
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About the contest, and the number of kills for Gimli and Legolas, how they seem a bit unrealistic (as well as Hurin), even within the context of Middle-earth....It might just be a thing of rational vs. irrational. These occurences happen every day in reality, things that society can't explain, but they happen...miracles.
I mean how does a guy get a nail shot in his head and doesn't realize it until 6 days later that his head is throbbing. Goes in to get an x-ray and there's a nail in his head. It went through his brain, I believe his eye nerve, yet after the nail's removal he had no mental damage or loss of vision. How does something like this happen? Don't know, but it does. Just a matter of an irrational occurence that can't be logically explained, yet we still try to explain it. |
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#17 |
Pilgrim Soul
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Well I don't know how Gimli could have possibly beat Legolas given that Legolas:
a, had a head start b, had hands that move quicker than sight c, was shooting/kniving people which has to be quicker than an axe ehich you have to swing.... d, had couple of feet height advantage on the dwarf and the enemy... Methinks Legolas thresw the contest....
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#18 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Flaming swords
I just found this from Websters 1913 dictionary: Quote:
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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I think this is why the Balrog wings debate is so strong; at that point we are in the changeover from the comfortable into the unfamiliar. At Helm's Deep we are quite out of our comfort zone so the image of a flaming sword is one we can't quite grasp. I like this, as it means we can read the text in many ways, just as we can read mythology in many ways. Interpretation comes into play, and I find that fascinating and rewarding. I like to think that the image could be both real and metaphor, both at once, depending on how we see it, just as it might appear in different ways to those actually involved in the battle itself. Quote:
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#20 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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More on Anduril: (from Encyclopedia of Arda)
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Even more interesting is the fact that a dwarf made a sword which 'glowed'. We know Elvish blades like Sting, Glamdring & Orcrist shone when Orcs were near, but does this show that the Dwarves had access to the same 'technology'. Had they learned it from the Elves, or the Elves from them? Or were Sting, Glamdring & Orcrist also os Dwarvish make? Whatever, I think we have to acccept that Anduril, the Flame of the West, did shine, literally, not 'metaphorically'. (Thanks must go to my 'researcher' in this, Lalwende ![]() (p.s. just remembered the line from 'Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Nirnoediad: 'The light of the drawing of the swords of the Noldor was like a fire in a field of reeds;' )
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 01-26-2005 at 05:12 PM. |
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#21 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME)
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The Idea of the metaphors is very interesting because I never thought of it that way.
As soon as I begin to read LOTR I am in ME and I never question these things. I just take everything Tolkien writes as it is. If he says the sword of the Nazgul is surrounded by flame I picture that way. For me it is not difficult to do this because I seperate myself from the real world and am completely submerged in the fantasy world. Of course this is really easy with ME. As has been said before there is an almost historical feel to LOTR. This is why I even believe that Legolas and Gimli were able to kill so many orcs. I just don't think about the possible and inpossible anymore. Especially with this Chapter Helm's deep. the description of it all is so accurate I don't question it. This is just one of the chapters that shows that LOTR is a master piece because I just believe everything.
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#22 |
Hauntress of the Havens
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With Gandalf again gone, Aragorn is subject to his second test in preparation for his kingship. First, he builds more on his relationship with Eomer and Theoden, to strengthen the ties of alliance between Gondor and Rohan in the future. Yes, Aragorn has been in Rohan before, serving under Thengel, Theoden's father (oh my, I actually forgot his name then!) - but now this is a different king, and a more dangerous time. It is also in Aragorn's fighting alongside the Rohirrim that Gondor somehow aids Rohan in its war.
Also, just before this chapter, it is usually Gandalf who speaks to Theoden while the others just listen on. Now it is Aragorn's turn to do the conversing. Secondly, this is his chance to "practice" for the larger battle that is to come. Anduril has been sheathed for so long, and here it gets to do its thing again. Ditto for Gimli's ax and Legolas' bow and knife. |
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#23 |
Scion of The Faithful
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I don’t think this is that incredible.
Húrin’s killing of seventy trolls (or a hundred Orcs) I find more incredible, him being all alone, and all. But remember, Morgoth said that Húrin should be taken alive, and this is the greatest warrior of Men. Now that I think of it, it becomes less and less incredible. Now, we turn to the Helm’s Deep non-Men. Remember, they were in a protected place, supported by war-worthy Men. Legolas uses a bow, a long-range weapon. With his first salvo he killed twenty. I think his quiver would have held that much. Then he killed four with knife-work. Well, he was almost surely supported by the knives of Rohirrim archers—probably with some Rohirrim swordsmen. Then we don’t hear of any more kills until he reached thirty-nine, when he sent the first Orc behind Aragorn to the Void. Before that he was perhaps obtaining arrows shot by the Orcs at them—after all, they are of almost the same size as his Galadhrim-issue. His last two kills may be arrows gleaned the same way, or less probably, knife. Now we turn to Gimli. His first two kills was recorded. Nothing incredible about that. Then he kills nineteen after the first breakthrough via the culvert. But in this attack he was supported by Gamling and the Men of Westfold. Then we never hear of him again until he killed twenty-one more Orcs when he retreated to Aglarond. He was supported by, of all the people, Éomer, plus some other Men. And they were in a cave, with Rohirrim as guides. Surely they would have contrived an ambush of some sort. That should be enough to account for his last kills. I say again, it’s not that incredible.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#24 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
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It is surprising, given that this was my favourite Chapter when I first read the book, that I have relatively little to say on it.
As far as the depiction of the battle is concerned, I do think that Aiwendil hit the nail on the head when he described it as a series of linked dramatic events (see his post #6 above). It is portrayed as a series of incidents, each involving the principal characters, linked by a general description of the battle's progress, in particular the development of the Orcs' assault. It struck me that this is similar to the way that a battle might be portrayed on film - as a series of encounters/incidents linked by overview shots of the battle. Tolkien's skill as a story-teller enables him to deploy this technique to marvellous effect in this Chapter. Another theme that links the events of the battle, and indeed of the entire Chapter, and also parallels them is the weather. Rather than blathering on at length here about this, I will simply provide this link to my post on The Symbolic Significance of Weather. Quote:
![]() ![]() Finally, this Chapter contains one of the most (unintentionally) funny lines in the book: Quote:
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#25 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Sorry, I don't spend any time on this chapter by chapter boards. I couldn't devote time to reading the book again when we started this off last year. pity really. Once I finish my new Adrian Mole book (best set of books I've ever read other than LOTR) I'll try to devote time to reading LOTR yet again. these threads give as good a reason to do it than anything else.
Anyway to my point. Quote:
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PS I know Aragorn argues with Theoden before this on Gandalf's whereabouts and seems to cling to hope that Gandalf will arrive somehow, but to me, I read this as a false hope, just a rebuttal to Theoden's point on Gandalf's counsel not looking too good in the morning light. |
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#26 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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#27 | ||
A Mere Boggart
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Strangely enough, this film technique could almost be applied to LotR in general, as we 'see' Middle Earth through various eyes. We are never in one place for very long (the chapters are shorter than you might expect for an 'epic' novel), and successive chapters with a lot of exposition are often linked by others which take us along on a journey to the next part of the story. It is an episodic novel in this respect, yet with a strong underlying feature in that we are taking the journey and discovering the landscape of Middle Earth along with the characters.
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#28 | |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Lalwende wrote:
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Helm's Deep is like the Death Star battle. The attentive reader easily grasps the geography, the strategies, and the overall arc of the battle. I would contrast this with the Battle of the Pelennor Field, where the battle itself is more of an amorphous entity and we do not closely follow the particular ups and down of the fighting - not that this is really a flaw, since there are other things going on at that point more important than the battle at large. |
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Stormdancer of Doom
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notes from reading, before reading thread:
More catsup
Notes from reading chapter prior to reading thread: Much of my underlining and highlighting had to do with the layout of Helm's Deep and comparison to the movie, which I will endeavor to skip. Seen dimly through the mists of antiquity... I love this sort of thing: Quote:
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I found the doubts of Theoden especially poignant. "I fret in this prison." "I serve little purpose here." "My heart is doubtful." "The end will not be long." And yet... "When dawn comes... I will ride forth." There is courage! To look death in the face, and ride out to meet it... foreshadowing Pelennor in all its bloody valor and glory: "Death they cried with one voice..." Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#30 | ||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
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I am lagging very very far behind, but still trying to follow. I enjoy reading all the interesting posts, but there is hardly anything left for me to say.
I notice how Gimli is here portreyed as valiant and hardy, not at all the laughing stock they made of him in the movie! Legolas respects him, and his words Quote:
And it is the counterpart to Gimli's words when entering Fangorn in "The White Rider" Quote:
And Gimli saves Eomer's life, no less! Also, in the hunt after the orcs with Aragorn and Legolas, it is never said that he lagged behind because of short legs. On the contrary, dwarves are very enduring.(and not just boasting to be so)
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Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! |
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#31 |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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This is just conjecture, but could the Siege of Alkmaar been an influence for the Battle of Helm's Deep?
Now, I read about this in a history book by H.G. Wells, and the link was the only one I could find that tells more details of the story, so some of you may know the story differently. Anyway, basically some General decided to 'increase the morale of the public' by slaughtering all of the inhabitants of the town that he was about to besiege. He had a professional army at his disposal, and also within that had a set of 'select' soldiers, which were better at soldiering than average. In the last town he attacked, he hung only 900 of its inhabitants, and still no one was taking him seriously nor showing signs of improved morale, and so he decided that Alkmaar would have to be a better show. The inhabitants of Alkmaar, now properly motivated, decided to fight back by any and all means. After raining much artillery down on the city, the General's select soldiers stormed the city only to be repelled by what ended up being a bunch of fishermen (persons, as I assume that all men, women and children took part in the defense). A breach in the city wall had been made but did not help the attackers. By days end, a thousand or so attackers lay dead, while the city's defenders lost merely a handful. The next day, the General bombarded the city again, but then decided to move on, as the ground was starting to get soggy. The city had opened up sluiceways, and so were letting the ocean in, making it hard for the General's soldiers to not be cranky. The city let the General know that, should the attack continue, they would let the entire ocean in and flood the entire area, drowning the General and his soldiers along with all of their own crops and livestock. Seemingly they had a strong aversion to being hung. The General, seeing how badly his men performed against motivated defenders, suddenly found an honorable way to retreat, stating that it was not the city defenders that made him turnabout, but the ocean, which no one could resist. Anyone else see Helm's Deep, and the cleansing of Orthanc here?
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#32 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2
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2qwe4
I have a question... please reply:
Why did Tolkien abandon some of his works? Moderator's note to new member: For your own protection, please do not give your e-mail address on a public forum. Your questions will be answered on this thread. Thanks! Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 11-06-2009 at 09:00 AM. Reason: E-mail address removed by moderator |
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#33 | |
Dead Serious
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Like some of my ancient predecessors on this thread, my first thought reading through this time was that "Helm's Deep" is a rather short chapter--and, related to that, reading it through, it always seems a bit shorter reading it than movie-tinted memories make it. That said, I think it's better in the book, where the overall impression (and others above commented upon Tolkien's narrative methods) is of an actual battle--that is, Tolkien's narration feels closer akin to historical battle accounts (whether written or something filmed, like Band of Brothers to capture a historical account) than it does to the movie version of its account! I suspect, leaning on the foregoing posts here, that a great of this sense to me has to do with the pauses and waiting that are part of the battle. No doubt, the fact that Tolkien had actually participated in real battles aided their creation here.
He wrote it over a decade ago, so I will not hold Aiwendil to defend himself, but I disagree when he writes: Quote:
Saruman is the defining character of Book III: from Boromir's death, to the Three Hunters' quest, to the death of Théodred, to the defense of Helm's Deep, to the march of Ents, all the main plot actions of the "good" characters are in response to him. Even the shining revelation of Gandalf the White is a reaction to Saruman's evil and failure. That is why I would say that the true climax of the book is the confrontation at Orthanc and the true denouément doesn't begin until thereafter. The Battle of Helm's Deep is an important move on the chessboard: boxing Saruman in and removing one of his great tools, but it's arguably no more significant than the Ents' destruction of Isengard and both seem to be to be set-up for the true climax of the book.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#34 | ||
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,359
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#35 | |
Dead Serious
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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