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01-20-2005, 06:40 PM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 3 - Chapter 08 - The Road to Isengard
Light and victory begin this chapter, and it wraps up the happenings with the awakened forest. We see the victors handling their enemies differently - the orcs are destroyed, the men of Dunland spared and set to work.
Gimli's description of the Glittering Caves gives yet another glimpse of his eye for beauty and the Dwarven ideals. His friendship with Legolas is shown in their promise to accompany each other to the sights that each one of them feels most important. The horrible change to the valley of Isengard is described - first through Saruman's corruption of it, then through the destruction by the Ents. And last, but most certainly not least, the travellers meet Merry and Pippin (again)! The conversations and their actions are so typically hobbitish, giving a welcome touch of comic relief to the serious situation. I enjoy them tremendously at every rereading. Which part of this chapter is your favorite? Which descriptions of landscapes affect you? Which characters do you enjoy most? (Thread will open on Sunday/Monday, January 30 - 31)
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
01-30-2005, 09:02 PM | #2 |
Dread Horseman
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The Road to Isengard is now open.
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01-30-2005, 11:10 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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One of my favourite parts in this chapter is Gimli's description of the glittering caves. I can picture them so well and the description is so accurate it becomes real.
In this chapter you also get the feeling that the friendship between Legolas and Gimli is rapidly growing. Especially when they promise to eachother that Legolas will see the glittering caves and Gimli will see Fangorn forest. Both of them are more willing not only to face eachothers differences but to accept them. They no longer hold onto their prejudices as before but are willing to see Fangorn forest or the glittering caves and to form their own opinion. Also the reunion between the hobbits and Legolas and Gimli makes me feel very happy. Most of the book has been pretty dark so far and it is nice to read about a victory and friends seeing eachother again. I always thought the Huorns were neat. Despite the fact that they helped to clean up the orcs I thought they were creepy when I first read the book. (and still do)Also because you don't know what they are untill Legolas,Gimli, and Aragorn hear merry and Pippin's story. This little technique that Tolkien uses of keeping a reader in the dark for as long as possible keeps me reading and re-reading LOTR.It keeps me from getting bored with the book. (Plus of course the wealth of detail) Overall this chapter has a feeling of transition for me. You can simply feel that fortune might be turning to the heros' favour despite all odds. This chapter always gave me a feeling of hope. The battle Helm's Deep is won and as I've said before friends reunite. I think Merry and Pippin's speech is so typically hobbitish that I have to smile every time as I read it. Whatever happens Hobbits are still able to stay so optimistic it makes me wish I had that same talent.
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01-31-2005, 11:04 AM | #4 |
Late Istar
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For me the most striking part of this chapter is the long description of Isengard - the section beginning "Beneath the mountain's arm within the Wizard's Vale . . ." As unremarkable as these paragraphs may seem when compared with such scenes as the battle of Helm's Deep, I think that this description exemplifies certain aspects of Tolkien's writing style and ability.
First, there is the mere fact that this account is placed here. Up to this point the narrative in this chapter has followed our heros as they deal with loose ends from the battle and start on the journey toward Orthanc. If I had been writing this chapter, I probably would stayed with these viewpoint characters exclusively, describing Isengard as they come to it, from their perspective. Now of course that's because I don't have anything remotely like Tolkien's grasp of the technique of story-telling - but after all, it does seem like the more natural thing to do, and I'd guess that few writers, even good ones, would think to break away from that viewpoint and move to, as it were, a higher perspective, to give a more distant and objective description of Isengard before proceeding. Yet this is something Tolkien does quite often. It happens constantly in the Silmarillion - many transitions are effected by "Now it must be told . . ." or "Now the tale turns to . . ." and very often we are pulled out of our perspective in time and space with references to events that occur later on and far away. This happens less in LotR, but it still happens. Most often we are only briefly taken out of viewpoint, but the passage in this chapter is not unique. Another notable one that occurs to me at the moment is an account of Shelob toward the end of book IV. These passages make the narrative voice of LotR the so-called "omniscient narrator". I think that this is an important point to note when one considers Tolkien in relation to other modern authors. I would say that most current fantasy writers (and indeed most current commercial authors) tend to use the "third person limited" voice, in which, though the prose is still in third person, each scene is told the perspective of one of the characters in that scene. I would go so far as to say that this is one of the ways in which modern fantasy fails when compared with Tolkien. For - and I admit that this is speculative - I think that there is something about the fairy-story as a genre that lends itself to the omniscient narrator. I'm not entirely sure why this is. In part, it may be that the omniscient narrator, in a manner of speaking, is capable of lifting the story up out of the mundane and making it bigger than the individual perspectives within it. That is certainly something that happens in this instance; in a way the shift in perspective is very cinematic. It's as though we follow the characters with close shots and shots from their perspective as they move toward Isengard; then when they finally approach it, the camera jumps to a high wide shot of the whole area. In a movie this would have the effect of opening up the story, making it feel big or expansive - and I think it is the same effect that Tolkien achieves here. Perhaps a more mundane reason that this omniscient viewpoint is effective is simply that it allows the narrator to more effectively communicate information to the audience. In a limited perspective (and most of all in first person) the author must contrive it that all the information the reader needs to know must be accessible to the narrator. If this chapter were told strictly from the perspective of the main characters, it would take quite a while for the reader to grasp the layout of Isengard, as the characters slowly approached it and entered it. The omniscient voice allows Tolkien to simply tell us what we need to know. That's a somewhat long analysis of a fairly short passage, but I think that Tolkien's narrative voice is an interesting and under-discussed subject. |
01-31-2005, 02:00 PM | #5 | |||||
A Mere Boggart
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There was another interesting narrative point which I noticed as I read of the discussion between Theoden and Gandalf. It almost seemed as if in this conversation Tolkien was 'stepping out of the text' to tell us something about the nature of the story, where we have been, and what we are about to face, yet he does this via two of the characters. He also seems to be telling us something of the nature and history of myth and folklore. Taking the conversation bit by bit, several thoughts struck me as interesting:
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01-31-2005, 02:53 PM | #6 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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There has been a battle of men against monsters, against the 'darkness' personified, but there has been another battle, a mythical battle of the trees & the forces which seek to wipe them from the earth. Its as if these two battles eched each other, or perhaps its the same battle taking place on two planes - the mundane & the supernatural - simultaneously. What is strange though is that these two battles are fought against the same enemy - as if Saruman himself is fighting both a natural & a supernatural battle - as if he seeks a victory on the supernatural as well as the natural plane. We seem have another example of the 'two worlds' which Tolkien says the Elves inhabit. No victory achieved in only one of those worlds will suffice. Its almost as if Saruman has had to fight on two fronts & suffered a defeat in both. WE learn a lot about Saruman in this chapter. We learn his true desire, & all his clever philosophising in his talk with Gandalf is exposed. He wants to be Sauron: Quote:
Well, it doesn't profit Saruman at all. He loses everything in the end, because he fails in his attempt to gain the world, or rather the worlds, as well as sacrificing himself to his own desires. He ends not with the Ring, but with 'blood' on his hands, & that 'blood' is not just that of the people of Rohan, it is also his own. He has sacrificed himself in an act of spiritual suicide. He has taken his own life, 'killed' himself, in his desire to be someone else - Sauron. |
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01-31-2005, 09:03 PM | #7 |
Wight
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Wow, you all are a hard act to follow! Some truly excellent posts here. Just one point I want to make about the different feel of this chapter. Tolkien is a master of building tension, often he let's it slowly build up and then releases it temporarily only to bring it back bigger than before. That is partly what this chapter does though at a greater scale. It is a break in the tension of the overall story, which is taken up again when the focus is brought back to Sauron.
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02-02-2005, 06:03 AM | #8 |
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This is my favourite chapter.
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02-02-2005, 04:27 PM | #9 |
Illustrious Ulair
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I do find the conversation of Legolas & Gimli regarding the Caves interesting for what it tells us about their relationship. For all their friendship Legloas still clearly sees Gimli as materialistic & fails to understand that his friend could have anything more than a mercenary interest in the Caves' contents. And this comes after Gimli has been waxing lyrical about their beauty & declaring that Dwarves would consider them a place of pilgrimage.
One does have to ask whether Gimli would have had such feelings before he encountered & fell in love with Galadriel, but it does seem a bit unfeeling of Legolas to be so judgemental & condemnatory. Perhaps his predjudices remain despite all he has learned. Indeed, it seems that Gimli is the 'sensitive' one in this relationship, & Legolas is betraying the Elves' innate (but false) sense of 'superiority' over other races. I wonder if Tolkien is making a point here about his primary creation - they aren't in any way 'ideal' beings. They are smug, controlling & 'holier than thou' to a deeply unhealthy (& unpleasant) degree. Of course, they have their virtues, which at the least balance out such faults, but those faults are there. Legolas needs putting in his place - he is 'talking like a fool' & Gimli is right to point this out to him. Legolas quite rightly accepts his friend's reprimand - he seems almost shocked when, finally, the implications of Gimli's words penetrate his Elven 'superiority'. Legolas has so far been in the role of 'teacher' - he has told the others about his people, has advised & made 'suggestions' - but one can't help feeling he has learned little: probably because like most of his kindred he has felt he had nothing to learn. Gimli, a mortal, has taught Legolas a valuable lesson here, & perhaps a seed has been planted in the Elf's heart. I can't help but wonder whether he has begun to realise that, like all his kindred, he is not needed any longer to guide & teach the 'younger children'. They can fend for themselves. His time is over. It is time to think seriously of saying 'Goodbye'. |
02-02-2005, 05:20 PM | #10 | ||
Scent of Simbelmynë
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The Dwarves, the Elves, and the Glittering Caves
I have always been moved by Gimli's response to the Caverns of Helm's Deep. It reminds me every time of the lines from the Dwarves' song at the beginning of the Hobbit:
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Really, the Elves and Dwarves have much in common when it comes to taste and craftsmanship. Elves seem a bit more idealistic, they love the "original" natural phenomena and channel their power through stone (rings, etc.) to preserve it and preserve through representation only in addition to the originals or when the originals cannot be saved, whereas Dwarves seem content to surround themselves with representations. But both seek to preserve (and perhaps improve?) nature, to freeze it in stone, so to speak. But perhaps in recent times Dwarves have fallen away a bit from that ideal (from all accounts, I think that Erebor was a fairly utilitarian dwelling) and Elves, in their superiority, refuse to see that the Dwarves' project is similar to their own (although perhaps different in style). It's nice to see Legolas and Gimli each discovering that the other has his own tastes and is capable of appreciating his companions'. I supsect I've rambled. Sophia
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The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me! Last edited by Sophia the Thunder Mistress; 02-02-2005 at 05:29 PM. Reason: punctuation, spelling, general correctness. |
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02-02-2005, 06:45 PM | #11 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A brief comment for now:
This is also one of my favorite chapters, along with The Shadow of the Past, The Council of Elrond, And the chapter with Theoden's speech and charge. When reading it I have to have a plate of bacon, fried pork roll, some crusty Italian bread (nicely buttered) and a bit of beer, for when the Three Walkers meet Merry and Pippin and get some nice snacks. (One of the nice movie bits are the shots of hobbits preparing food in FOTR). Although it's always seemed a bit out of character for Strider to stay with them rather then going immediately to meet Treebeard.
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02-03-2005, 12:21 PM | #12 | |
A Mere Boggart
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This is wonderful character building, and dare I say it, Saruman comes across as far more sinister than Sauron because of this. He has met and dealt harshly with one of our most loved characters, and several other characters have had dealings with him. These are real, tangible events, unlike the dark, slightly mysterious psychological effects which Sauron has on his enemies. I also think it is testament to Tolkien's writing that he can have us invest so much in characters like Gandalf and Theoden, that we are prepared to believe that what Saruman has done to them is diabolical, even though we have never yet 'met' with this character. This all sets the scene perfectly for The Voice of Saruman, as we have heard all these tales, and now we have had the narrator himself step in and tell us just how terrible he is.
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02-04-2005, 12:58 AM | #13 | ||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Thoughts on how this chapter may fit in....or an unexpected detour
I think Davem is on to something:
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We begin in the Shire, a thoroughly mundane world. Throughout the early chapters of the book, but especially in Lorien, we gain small glimpses of the Elvish connection with the mythic, as reflected in Galadriel or her Phial and its tiny sliver of a Silmaril. Yet we are still in the world of manlike beings and recorded history. Sauron’s forces actually benefitted from the power of the “mythic” or “supernatural” long before Frodo and company did. The Barrow-wight and the Nazgul, and even more the Watcher in the Water and the Balrog, push the story back to the edge of legend. To me, creatures like the Watcher or the Balrog are more than mere "monstors". The two are as much part of myth, and are just as alien to Man, as would later be true of the Huorn. Whether these various creatures were intentional or accidental allies of Sauron is not always clear, but they all had personal reasons for supporting the cause of the dark shadow. The same (in reverse) will also hold true for the Ents and the Huorn. By the time the group reaches Moria, all traces of the mundane world have been stripped away but the members of the fellowship have yet to tap into anything remotely as powerful or as mythic as the Balrog. Frodo carries the Phial, for example, but does not see a use for it yet. The climax of all this is the seeming end of hope with the death of Gandalf by a 'supernatural' creature. I don’t think it’s coincidental that the return of Gandalf coincides with the emergence of the Huorn and the Ents, in effect the release of the mythic for the benefit of the ‘good guys’. What happened to Gandalf can only be described as “mythic” –certainly far beyond anything we understand of the mundane world. The transformed Gandalf is, I think, the catalyst for drawing the mythic plane into closer alignment with the natural one. This chapter, ‘The Road to Isengard’ chronicles that shift, showing how mythic creatures like the Huorn and Ents bring their strength to bear against Saruman. How ironic that Saruman should be destroyed by the very “mythic” forces that he gave such little credence to, preferring to manufacture his own modern versions of 'old' things. Gandalf’s words to Theoden suggest that, even at this point in the story, Men have serious difficulties recognizing supernatural aid. The istar points out that young children in Rohan would probably have done a better job than the King in recognizing the Ents for what they really are : Quote:
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Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 02-04-2005 at 01:19 AM. |
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02-05-2005, 03:42 PM | #14 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Before I turn the page to the next chapter, I would like to mention how much I enjoy the ending of this one - it's so very hobbity!
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The preceding pages also have such wonderful humour - Merry's high-falutin' language, used with tongue in cheek; Gimli's "torn between rage and joy"; Théoden's 'It cannot be doubted that we witness the meeting of dear friends" - all bring welcome yet subtle comic relief into the story. (...too subtle for the movies, apparently. )
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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02-05-2005, 04:11 PM | #15 | |
A Mere Boggart
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02-05-2005, 05:01 PM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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So Theoden comes to promise Merry he will hear more about pipeweed later on.
I think it is sad that Merry and Theoden never get the chance to talk about it. I always thought that they would get a chance to talk so when Theoden dies it came as a shock to me. (It still does when I re-read LOTR which is weird since I know he is going to die)
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02-06-2005, 02:25 PM | #17 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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Other examples of the elf's insensitivity are his flippant comments on Caradhras and his comment that the hobbits should dig a hole if they did not want to climb trees to escape from Orcs. However I cannot think of a similar one after Gimli's rebuke. He becomes a more thoughtful elf and his comments in Minas Tirith - will be far removed from those at Helms deep.
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02-20-2005, 01:43 AM | #18 |
Hauntress of the Havens
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As a quite shallow person, I find it easy to smile and laugh and giggle at many scenes in the LotR books. But one of the scenes that reached out and tugged at my heartstrings was that of the meeting between the hobbits and Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, as well as Theoden's polite and humble remarks. I remember myself squirming in my seat, giggling wildly as I read through that part. Until now I find it a great misfortune that what was promised in that scene will be broken in the end. (No need to be specific. Hint: Theoden and Merry )
davem (on Elven Superiority): I found myself nodding to your words, but I thought I would defend Legolas a bit... At the beginning of the chapter, as Gimli and Legolas met again, the Elf admitted his defeat in their game for he was so glad to see Gimli safe. Do not these words presage that he is letting go of his "superiority" little by little? Last edited by Lhunardawen; 02-25-2005 at 05:33 AM. |
03-02-2005, 09:46 PM | #19 | ||||||||||||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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catch-up, notes from reading prior to reading thread
Gandalf is persistently mysterious throughout this chapter as shown in several quotes following:
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The lovely glimpses of the distant past: Quote:
Tolkien's commentary, I think, that the works of any "evil Genius" point to their true and original father: Quote:
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Theoden, bless him, takes Gandalf's words about the legends of the past, to heart: Quote:
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Merry is magnificent and delightful, polite, astute, and shrewd: Quote:
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05-18-2005, 05:31 PM | #20 | |||
Banshee of Camelot
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I made notes about what moved me and interested me most in this chapter-
the conversation of Gandalf and Théoden about the Ents and the "fireside tales" and the sadness because much that is fair and wonderful will pass away. but I see that Lalwendë has written exactly about that and I couldn't agree more! This passage is so typical for Tolkien - it relates to the story and yet it is a truth. The Ents have passed away and only the unexplained word is left in some old texts - Tolkien had to re-invent a meaning. I was also moved by Gimli's description of Aglarond - it shows that he has the soul of a poet! Here we see how he and Legolas have become friends indeed. It is so important to them to share what they delight in, that they will overcome their reluctance to strange places. Quote:
"But do not tell all your kindred!" he warns him. I agree with Davem about the Elves general sense of "superiority", but I feel this more about Gildor, or Haldir, or Lindir in Rivendell... Legolas himself never strikes me as particularly smug or "holier than thou". I rather think he is really quite modest - he is just "Legolas the Elf" and never mentions that he is the son of a king, and readily accepts Aragorn as his leader. But there is one thing in this chapter that makes me wonder: When the company have reached the Fords of the Isen, Théoden says: Quote:
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(Perhaps Movie-théoden overdid it a bit, but on the whole I thought that it was a good idea in the movie to show Théodred's funeral and his father's grief.) Has anyone an explanation for this?
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09-19-2018, 01:13 PM | #21 |
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Although I argued, only a thread ago, that the denouément of Book III doesn't come until after "The Voice of Saruman," there is nonetheless something of a denouément feel to "The Road to Isengard," coming as it does after the heights of "Helm's Deep." If the plot is a series of peaks and valleys, this chapter is a valley rather than a peak.
Nonetheless, it is laden with some of the most beautiful parts of the entire book. Both Gimli's description of the Glittering Caves and his pact with Legolas could be mentioned here, or the mystery of the wood, or the description of Isengard. I would also include the passing of the wood back to Fangorn past our company--a passage I don't recall noting before. I think Tuor has a point here, though I'm not going to characterise it as "out of character." Rather, I think that, left to his own devices, Aragorn probably *would* be more curious to go and meet Treebeard. The fact that he does not do so is a revelation of character. After pursuing the Hobbits across Rohan and into Fangorn, Aragorn still has a "duty" to the Fellowship (as we see in the next chapter, not necessarily an unpleasant duty). It's sort of like a father taking off time from work when something major and ambitious is being tackled to see a child's ball game: the investment of his time in a personal matter when there is something major tugging at him demonstrates the importance he places on the personal relationship.
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