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01-11-2005, 11:08 AM | #41 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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01-11-2005, 12:01 PM | #42 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Seems to me that for Elves and Ents change is something that presents a problem to their desires. Treebeard may enjoy the process of change as it gives him a chance to make his words longer and longer, but this traps him in a process that can only end with the ending of time. Just as the Elves become locked in their forests and dreams, unable or unwilling to go beyond them except to pass into the West for good, so too is Treebeard locked in his words. . .? For Entwives and hobbits, change is something that is cyclical and seasonal. There is no impossible 'endpoint' beyond or at the edge of time when their job will be complete for fulfilled: for them, the present of flux and change is the 'endpoint' and fulfillment they desire and need. Crops come and are harvested; hobbits grow and die and take their place in their family trees. Seems that each of these modes (Elves/Ents & Hobbits/Entwives) is a different approach to time. The Elves and Ents (a 'masculine' approach?) are directed toward immortality: that is, living one's life in a purely forward looking, linear way within the confines of time, until it ends. The Hobbits and Entwives, however, seem directed toward eternity: that is, living one's life in cyclical pattern within time that through its endless and constant repetition will transcend time. Like I said -- just trying to get in my post to this chapter thread. You solicitors (or is it barrister?) are all the same: won't let anyone get away with anything.
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01-12-2005, 01:47 AM | #43 | |
Scion of The Faithful
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Fordim:
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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01-12-2005, 10:35 AM | #44 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
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Getting back to the garden
Fordim's suggestive comment about masculine and, by analogy, feminine approaches to time provides me with an opportune moment to introduce the other point I wished to make, which I promised way back on January 3. It is a long and winding point, replete with brambles along the way, so let me pick our way carefully through the thicket.
Tolkien's love for trees has become a truism devoutly acknowledged by all readers of the books. Indeed, his invocation to trees is rather unique I think and might bear some relationship to such Old English poems as "The Dream of the Rood" where Christ's Cross is given a speaking role and portrayed not as a piece of lumber but as a sentient, living tree, aware of its role in the torture of God. There is a darkness as well as a charm in the boreal canopy which Tolkien brings out both in Lothlorien and in Fangorn. What I find fascinating, though, is how he marries the forest with concepts of the pastoral. The pastoral is itself a literary tradition: simplicity of thought in a rural setting, mixed in with romance and shepherds. Perhaps a very early version of pastoral was Eden. Yet if we search through LotR we don't find an Eden myth, although we find many other myths, wound together in Tolkien's magestic way. Lothlorien is a forest cornucopia rather than a garden, a place where time is held still by the power and strength of Galadriel and her ring. It would be Eden had there been no Fall, but the elves did fall and so we know that this version of the pastoral is a desperate one, not long for Middle-earth. But what of Fangorn? Here is another forest, but this one a forest where time endures long. Fangorn is not static as is Lorien, but full of change. Quote:
The ents are those who are satisfied with 'the woods wide and wild', happy to glean the fruit which falls from the trees. Yet to the entwives Tolkien gives the desire to control and dominate. Quote:
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It seems that this is a story not only of the lack of communciation between the male and female genders but also of the greater propensity of the female aspect for succumbing to evil. Treebeard claims that the ents might be at fault for not seeking out the gardens of the entwives more strenuously, but the association of the Entwives's desire to control the nature world according to their wishes is clearly related to Sauron. Too much knowledge is a danerous thing! It leads to the dark side! And this mistake, this error is, like the fault of disobedience attributed to Eve, attributed to the female of the tree species. And whereas Eve was punished by being made subservient to Adam, the Entwives face a starker fate: they seem to have vanished from the face of Middle-earth. I would not push this possibility too far, yet it is tantalizing to consider how Tolkien has melted the ancient stories of agriculture and horticulture with the garden, with Darkness, and with a melancoly version of the different perspectives of male and female.
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01-12-2005, 06:58 PM | #45 |
Scion of The Faithful
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Just two points . . .
1. Concerning the issue of names and control:
Merry and Pippin gave away their names as though it is of small consequence. Perhaps it is due to their innocence or (here’s where speculation begins) like Dwarves, it is very hard to dominate them. For instance, Sam tried to stay awake even when Old Man Willow is putting them to sleep. Plus there’s the Gaffer withstanding Khaműl’s interrogation (he should have been in Minas Tirith, teaching those weak-kneed Men!). And then of course there’s Frodo, resisting the power of the Ring until the very end. 2. Concerning Red Dawn “Awake! Awake!” [Legolas] cried. “It is a red dawn! Strange things await us by the eaves of the forest. Good or evil, I do not know, but we are called. Awake!”The idea that this message was for Treebeard could explain the events that transpired between the Ent and the Hobbits. [Treebeard: ]I almost feel I dislike you both, but do not let us be hasty. [Treebeard: ] . . . if I had see you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, mistaking you for little Orcs . . .Treebeard was there, relatively near the eaves of the forest, perhaps listening to the tales of the trees from the very edge of the forest. There were trees cut down by the Orcs, and more were felled by the Rohirrim. Obviously, Treebeard is furious, and wary perhaps of anyone entering the forest. And then these little people—which he has never seen before—come up to him! What would come to his mind first?! I think the “strange things” message of the rising sun—perhaps along with Pippin almost liking the place—saved the two from the wrath of Fangorn.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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01-12-2005, 08:06 PM | #46 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Entwives - the first GM scientists?
Interesting thoughts, Bęthberry. It ties in with the quote that Esty gave at the beginning of this thread suggesting that, in the Ents and the Entwives, Tolkien was, in a very general way, articulating his thoughts on the difference between male and female approaches to nature. My own thoughts in this regard are set out in my first post on this thread.
But I do wonder how far we can take the Entwife/Eve/Sauron analogy. I said in my first post: Quote:
Although (in reference to the title of this post) I have no doubt that he would have disapproved of their approach taken to its extreme.
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01-13-2005, 04:34 PM | #47 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
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A garden by any other name
My apologies, Sauce, if you believe I have overlooked yours and Esty's considerable contributions here. As Esty can attest, the vicissitudes of the holiday kept me away from posting at the time and I had been waiting for a moment to reply that would not intrude upon a different topic in the discussion.
What I had been hoping to do was hightlight a different aspect of the entwives tale. Unlike you, I was more than a little perplexed at the associations Tolkien gave to the entwives and to 'females' in general. Let me attempt to retrace what set me off on my interpretive scheme. One of the outstanding themes of this chapter, for me, is the importance of language and of story. You have already suggested that the omission of the hobbits from Treebeard's list is an example of Tolkien's ironic play upon the absence of hobbits from the Legendarium. I like this idea, as it suggests a more light-hearted and playful Tolkien than we sometimes recognise. Yet this is just one of a series of examplea of the use of story and language in the chapter. Consider for example Treebeard's warning about the hobbits telling their own names. (A reservation shared, we know, with the dwarves.) Quote:
We then learn a very important lesson about the elves. Treebeard recounts the story. Quote:
So, the chapter sets up a very important theme. This theme then becomes a major aspect in distinguishing the ents from the entwives. Others have quoted part of the passage, but I would like here to give it in its entirety. Quote:
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But to link "garden" this way with linguistic traits is to take the reference out of the purely floral range I think. thus, I started to ruminate on the garden in literature and that of course leads to the old story of knowledge of good and evil. I too would not want to take the allusion to Sauron too far, but I think it clearly exists, particularly in that allusion to "unpossessive love". And while Saucy might be right to point out the similarities here with The Shire, the Entwives are also give the same attribution as the Elves themselves: they wanted things to remain "whree they put them". That is, they wished to stop change. Or to control change. It is a most complex story and one which I am sure, as Tolkien himself wrote, "percolated" in his mind for a very long time.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 01-13-2005 at 04:40 PM. Reason: correcting codes |
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02-21-2005, 08:50 AM | #48 | |||||||||||||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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straggling, yet persevering...
I have much catching up to do. The following notes were written before reading the thread; having now read the thread, several (davem and boromir in particular) hunted some of the same things I did. Having to choose between correlating all my comments to all those who posted on similar topics or ideas on this thread, or, moving on to the next chapter-- I hope you all do not think me rude in moving on. The thread has been quite enjoyable, yet I have many miles to go...
The casual introduction of Treebeard is delightful: Quote:
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Good and evil trees and their roots: Quote:
And how dark those dales must be! "Hollow" dales says something about the nature of evil; hollowness in life, purpose, etc. And yet it is not physically the trees that are hollow-- but the dells they are rooted in. Contrast this with the "Sweet old willows down the Entwash" rooted near the nutritious and healthy river-- Psalm 1, anyone? Quote:
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WELLINGHALL I find the whole Wellinghall passage fascinating because of the connection between Treebeard, water, ent-draughts, stone pots and bowls and vessels, and light. Here are a few exerpts: Quote:
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"Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!” Light when Treebeard is roused: Quote:
Light when Treebeard calms himself: Quote:
On Sarumen: Quote:
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02-22-2005, 08:03 AM | #49 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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09-10-2018, 05:38 PM | #50 | ||
Dead Serious
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Few chapters in The Lord of the Rings exist as completely in their own world as "Treebeard"--including the Bombadil chapters, the Lórien chapters, the Mordor chapters. It's a gift of Tolkien that his most distinctly "otherworldly" setting (i.e. the most fantastical place we visit) is the most earthy: maybe some of us live in places like Arizona or Egypt (or Saskatchewan ) where trees are rare, but most of us live with trees as part of our daily landscape, even if forests are not, and Tolkien takes this element of daily backdrop and makes it magical.
It's not a major passage, but it is one commented on a few times in this thread that caught my imagination this time through: Quote:
"The Darkness." Moreso than in previous reads, this brought the Silmarillion to mind: the first great growth of trees in the darkness of Middle-earth before the rise of the Sun and Moon. Treebeard is talking of a figurative darkness too: a darkness in the hearts of the trees, but he's also talking about literal darkness. It's an evocative image of the ancientry of parts of the forest: by the time the Sun and Moon rose, the canopy of some glades was already so thick that when they rose, their light did not pierce through--"the Darkness has never lifted." The thread actually ended before on a related note: Quote:
Is it any wonder that Legolas (a Sylvan/Sindarian Elf) wanted to visit Fangorn? The desire of the Elves (especially the non-High Eldar) in The Lord of the Rings is represented with their use of the Rings, especially in Lórien, to try and preserve the Elder Days--and for the Eldar of Middle-earth, there is a special poignancy of the Elder Days before the Rise of the Sun. To visit those dark dells in Fangorn is not even like going to Lórien, where Cerin Amroth is likened to stepping into the living Elder Days--a kind of time-travelling trick almost--but of finding a survival of the Elder Days. Maybe it is not everything an Elf's heart could want, but that it would hold deep fascination is not surprising--remember that it is to Legolas what the Glittering Caves is to Gimli.
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