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11-08-2004, 04:16 AM | #1 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 09 - The Great River
This is a transitional chapter. It takes place on the river that forms the border between two enemy forces, that demands a choice of goal before it ends. It is relatively short and seems to have less weighty content, compared to other chapters. There is much description of the lands through which the Fellowship passes on this part of the journey.
The scene is being set for future developments - Gollum shows up, Boromir resists Aragorn's decisions, and an orc attack comes dangerously close to injuring them. Aragorn shows his kingly side once again when they pass the Argonath. What do you find particularly interesting about this chapter? What feeling does reading it give you?
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11-08-2004, 05:32 AM | #2 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I'm going to try to sneak in a quick post before I need to get going.
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I don't have enough time to get in what I wanted (I'll be back, lol). But, here's a bit more on Boromir's wittiness, which may be the funniest one yet. Quote:
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11-08-2004, 06:31 AM | #3 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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This is, as Esty says, a transitional chapter - a journey by river, various dangers faced & overcome, the appearance of the Nazgul on a Fell Beast, & the sight of the Eagle, whose significance will become apparent later. And yet, in the midst of this 'travelogue' Tolkien gives us one of his most profound explorations of Elven psychology, in Legolas' account of the Elves relationship to time: Quote:
How many other writers could introduce ideas like his into a ‘transitional’ chapter & make it work? |
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11-08-2004, 02:51 PM | #4 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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I wanted to bring up some striking parallels between the Company travelling in Moria, and the company travelling down the Anduin.
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11-08-2004, 03:13 PM | #5 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
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I noticed that twice the number eight is used in Boromir's post above...
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Or perhaps this is just me reading way too far into things. As the company leaves the realm of Galadriel, they spy black swans in the sky, a sharp contrast to Galadriel's white swan-ship. The Elves seem to be very much connected to or enamoured of swans -- seen in the name "Alqualonde" and how in the Lay of Nimrodel, Amroth went "riding like a swan." The black swans are almost like the anti-Elf, the negative image of everything they stand for and love: beauty, timelessness, song. The company enters the barren lands south of Lorien and loses all that; their comfortable stay is without a doubt over. |
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11-08-2004, 07:38 PM | #6 | |||||||
Corpus Cacophonous
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Boromir's prophecy
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And now, on to my current favourite subject: Boromir. There is ample evidence here that, following his experience in Lothlorien, he is suffering inner turmoil: Quote:
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Boromir's growing obsession with Frodo, and more particularly Frodo's burden, is also evident when he resolves to continue with the Fellowship to the Tindrock: Quote:
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11-08-2004, 07:52 PM | #7 | ||
Stormdancer of Doom
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On the other hand, it's sad, isn't it, that that's what Boromir does in one of the elven boats?
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11-08-2004, 11:13 PM | #8 | |||||||
Beloved Shadow
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I always bite my nails though. Quote:
And someone mentioned Boromir's wit but didn't give this quote- Quote:
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Also, I was thinking back to the first time I read LOTR (with my father many years ago) and I am fairly certain that it was during this chapter that a particular thought first struck me- Frodo and Sam are going to get seperated from the others. In Lorien they went to the mirror by themselves and now in this chapter they discuss Gollum privately and decide not to bother Strider about it. I dunno, I just remember thinking that Frodo and Sam had kind of distanced themselves from the others somehow (maybe because they drawn closer to each other). But on the subject of Gollum, it turned out that Aragorn already knew much more than they did, and had actually tried to catch him during their river journey (without the hobbits realizing it). Aragorn really is amazing. And I know this might be a bit off-topic, but Aragorn said- Quote:
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And I just thought I'd mention that the Argonath and the gorge it is in is one of the things that captured me on my first read. I would empty my checking account to travel that part of the Anduin. Quote:
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11-10-2004, 07:25 AM | #9 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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How did Gollum escape Moria? Gollum exiting Moria Nothing definitive, but a good deal of informed speculation.
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11-10-2004, 09:16 AM | #10 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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(I think Gollum climbed/crawled out of one of those light-shafts.)
The Argonath: Sam's fearful reaction to the Argonath puzzles me. I can't relate to it. I love wind, and cliffs (if I'm at the bottom, and not at the top near the edge) and I love storms, and thunder and rough water... Anyway, I never understood Sam's reaction. Maybe Tolkien was trying to paint the scene as a sort of "Cape Horn", a dangerous place; but it doesn't seem dangerous to me so much as exhilarating. |
11-10-2004, 09:33 AM | #11 | |||
A Mere Boggart
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I do believe Tolkien was drawing upon this time-shift folklore, but that he also attempted in some way to ‘explain’ it as it related to the Elves and other immortal creatures. When Legolas gives his speech, this is an attempt at that, but it is a very difficult concept to grasp, so it does bear careful consideration. Quote:
Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Imagine having been born two thousand years ago and still being alive today. You would have seen the world move through all its many changes. You would have known so many mortals that you would as likely as not have forgotten even some of the most important ones in your long life. I’m no mathematician so I can’t give any numerical comparisons, but if you consider how, in what seems like no time at all, a kitten grows into an adult cat and then sadly grows old, this is what an immortal would experience with their mortal friends. In terms of what Arwen gave up for Aragorn, it could be compared with giving up your life at the age of 25 just to spend two weeks with somebody you met yesterday. Sometimes I think it is not surprising that so many Elves are portrayed as keeping their distance from mortals – it would indeed have been heart-breaking to see people die in no time at all, so perhaps it may have been better to keep away from the possibility. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. This, I think, refers to the fact that mortals’ running years are quite literally not counted by the elves for themselves. Their concept of a year would be much longer than ours; 144 years of mortal time made up one Yeni of Elven time, if I’m correct. To put this into the context of time passing slowly, instead of clock watching for one hour until you can go home, an Elf might have to do this for say, 3 or 4 days. To an elf, a phase of the moon would pass by as though we had just clicked our fingers. Sayings such as ‘once in a ‘blue’ moon may mean once a month, i.e. something regular. It makes you wonder if they would celebrate events such as birthdays or anniversaries in the way that mortals might. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last. This is an enigmatic and beautiful statement. It suggests ‘the end of all things’. Or does Legolas refer only to the end of Elvenkind in Middle Earth by saying ‘under the Sun’?
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11-10-2004, 10:45 AM | #12 | |||
Gibbering Gibbet
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Heraclites was right about rivers: they mark much more than the boundary between earth and water, but between different modes of experience, perhaps even different ways of being. Along with his most famous phrase about stepping in rivers, Heraclites also left to posterity 130 other ‘fragments’ in which his philosophy is revealed. A few of the more relevant to this chapter are, I think:
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Tolkien is a writer obsessed with roads – more properly, with The Road. The journeys of his heroes take place on the Road as they move forward in a linear way through their life’s experiences. The Roads that they travel return them to their home, completing a circle, but still the journey is one that they must undertake on their own. To traverse a Road one must do so through dint of one’s own efforts. There are landmarks to achieve, miles to cross and resting points to reach. One cannot drift upon the Road of Life, but be an active participant. Travelling on rivers is entirely different. I have spent a lot of time canoeing the rivers in the land about my childhood home, and what I have learned about rivers is that travelling them is a more passive activity, particularly if one is going with the current, as the Fellowship is doing. Rivers do not turn back upon themselves or return to their source. With rivers, the journey is not yours but the river’s itself: unlike the material of Roads, the water is physically moving, bearing you along. Rivers are thus all about change and flux, flow and impermanence. Heraclites knew this, and that is why he asserted that you can never step in the same river twice: not just because the water is always changing, but because you are always changing. The experience of being human is one of flux, of alteration, and of change. Tolkien knew this, which is why his Men and Hobbits are so different from the Elves, for whom change is anathema and to be avoided. It is only appropriate and right, I think, that the Fellowship leaves the unchanging – and even sterile – land of the Elves by travelling a River and once again entering into the flux and movement of human life, and living. In this chapter I think we can see all the members of the Fellowhip in the process of change. The plot and tenor of the book – that ineffable thing called ‘tone’ – is certainly changing from one of adventurous brotherhood to the darker and more fragmentary pursuits and trials which await them. But the two characters in whom we can see this process most clearly are, I think, Frodo and Aragorn: Quote:
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Rich are the hours though short they seem in Caras Galadhon where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring The change in Aragorn is even more pronounced – but this is not a completed transformation. Just as Frodo is speaking in verse, but also in prose, so too is Aragorn still “Strider, and yet not Strider”. He has a moment of heroic revelation that raises the hackles on my neck every time, but it is short-lived: as soon as it is over he lapses ‘back’ into the uncertain Ranger of the North, in need of guidance from the Wizard. Quite wonderfully, his process of changing will not be completed until he undertakes another river journey upon the Anduin when he will save Minas Tirith. In that journey he not only will travel against the current, but he will do so without first consulting Gandalf about it. In this chapter we see him moving toward that moment, but not really there yet. One particular fragment from Heraclites I think has profound resonance with the current chapter and discussion: “Mortals are immortals and immortals are mortals, the one living the other's death and dying the other's life”. Could there be any more accurate description of the tragedy that lies behind the journeys of Frodo and Aragorn? In Aragorn is, and will be united the bloodlines of the immortal Elves and mortal Men. The success of his quest will mean the “death and dying [of] the other’s [the Elves/Arwen] life”. The same for Frodo: with the destruction of the Ring there will come about the destruction of Lórien, and Frodo will pass from the mortal realm into the Timeless Land. That all this is happening as they drift along the current of the greatest river in Middle-earth is perfectly appropriate. The process of change that they are caught up in is one that is beyond their control. They can choose to ride the river, to enter the current and let it bear them where they wish, but they cannot make that journey themselves, nor can they make the River follow any course but the one that it lays out for them. Of course, in the end, this process of change and flux must reach at least a momentary result or conclusion: in this case, the breaking of the Fellowship, which will itself become the beginning of their new journeys, the successful completion of which will again set off further journeys. And on we go.
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11-10-2004, 11:04 AM | #13 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Hence the River is both symbolic of the Fellowship's delay in choosing a course, and the means by which that delay is achieved. They are letting themselves be passively carried along rather than actively making a decision (as the text reminds us both at the beginning and at the end of the Chapter).
Interesting that this passive mode of proceeding almost spells their doom. The River was about to carry them either into the deadly rapids or to the eastern shore were their enemies lay in wait. So, they can only allow themselves to be carried along for so long, unless they are to risk being carried into danger.
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11-10-2004, 02:14 PM | #14 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I think Fordim's points on the nature of the River are incredibly significant - its not only the physical River which carries the Fellowship, but also the 'river' of Time. this is a chapter which focusses primarily on being ‘carried’, being ‘swept along’. Aragorn himself makes the connection when he says:
‘Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.’ In the last chapter, our final glimpse of Lorien, specifically of Galadriel herself, was: Quote:
I suspect that’s why this chapter seems so ‘cluttered’ with events - almost too many to keep up with. Like the Fellowship, we’ve been in the Timeless Land, where even though a month had passed we ourselves cannot ‘remember’ more than a few days there. Its as if Time itself was waiting for us to emerge, with a month’s worth of events for us to deal with in a few days. We’ve experienced both Elvish ‘Time’ while in Lorien, & now, in this chapter, we will experience Human ‘Time’, where change is so fast that we can hardly keep up. The sudden rush, the panic, the attacks by enemies - all of it is like awakening from a soothing dream to a hectic day. And so it is - Elves inhabit the dreamworld, Men the waking world. If the Fellowship are ‘passively’ carried along by the ‘Great River’ of Time, well, aren’t we all? For three chapters we’ve inhabited the dreamworld of Lothlorien (the Dreamflower) now we have awakened. |
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11-10-2004, 03:07 PM | #15 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Swept up in events ...
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11-13-2004, 01:58 AM | #16 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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(Its also Legolas ‘great’ moment within the LotR for me, so I wanted to single it out before we move on.) |
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11-13-2004, 02:26 AM | #17 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Frodo calls the shadow Cold, as opposed to the balrog. That sent me back to Weathertop and other nazgul encounters, and the words cold, chill, icy are pervasive throughout the Nazgul encounters and discussions of Frodo's knife-wound. Still thinking about when evil in M-E is hot, as opposed to cold. The B-W was cold as well so it's not a Nazgul-only thing. Death-cold versus demonic-hot perhaps. Morgoth's servants hot, Sauron's servants cold...? (it might make more sense in the morning... I may edit then)
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11-13-2004, 08:48 AM | #18 | |
Laconic Loreman
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11-13-2004, 09:52 AM | #19 | |
Animated Skeleton
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I would even say that without the events at the end of FotR and begining of TT, Aragorn would not have been ready to assume his throne in Gondor. His blaming himself for his indecisiveness leading to the capture of Merry and Pippen taught him a valuable lesson that served him well for the rest of his life. |
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11-13-2004, 11:09 AM | #20 |
Laconic Loreman
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Well said Aldarion. That is why I'm glad Aragorn didn't go to Minas Tirith at this stage of the journey, because clearly he wasn't ready for it. But, by the end of the story he has become a changed Character indeed.
I know I've said this many times, and I'll say it again, because I think it supports another point. In one of Tolkien's earlier writings, Aragorn goes to Minas Tirith, with Boromir. Boromir goes against Aragorn's throne claiming and starts stirring up a civil war. Aragorn then has to kill Boromir before he gathers too much support. This is similar to the Arvedui claim. Where Arvedui clearly had the "proof," and the "right" to the throne, but he didn't have the support of the Steward, or the full support of the people, causing the Kin Strife. I'm afraid if Aragorn goes with Minas Tirith with Boromir, he only has the "proof" to the throne, he doesn't have the support of the people. How does Aragorn get this support, his battle experience, at the Morannon, and at Pelennor. Then, the people are rallied behind him, and even the Steward Faramir, knowing it is wise to step down, because Aragorn has the right to the throne, and seeing Aragorn's battle experiences he has the support of the people. Where if he simply went to Minas Tirith at this stage, and took claim to the throne, the people would see him as a nuisance, and could try to go against him. |
11-14-2004, 02:07 AM | #21 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
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Please don't kill me, but when I first thought about this chapter, the only thing that comes to mind is the Argonath.
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Here is shown the perfect epitome of a swoon-worthy man..."Strider, and yet not Strider," no longer a Ranger, now "a king returning from exile to his own land." It was enough to make you proud of him, then he says... Quote:
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11-14-2004, 06:15 PM | #22 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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01-24-2005, 05:53 PM | #23 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Lhunardawen, I wouldn't kill you because I always think the same way about this chapter.
However, when re-reading LOTR I also think of the entwives who had their gardens in the brownlands (When they weren't any brownlands yet) That thought always makes me very sad because you do get a very strong sense that the magic in ME is waning and that certain things are coming at an end. Of course this is amphisized by the knowledge that the Fellowship may have to be split up and that some may never see eachother again. One reason why I always think of the Argonath is because there is something about the descriptionthat Tolkien used which makes me remember them. Quote:Upon great pedestals founded in the deep waters stood two great kings of stone:still with blurred eyes and crannied brows they frowned upon the North.The Left hand of each was raised palm outwards in gesture of warning;in each right hand there was an axe;upon each head there was a crumbling helm and crown. Of course this once again shows that Gondor has weakened since the days of old. In general all these kind of images give me a feeling of sadness.
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08-28-2018, 07:34 PM | #24 |
Dead Serious
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This is a transitional chapter, not a blockbuster like some, but it's got more than a little action, between the River, Gollum, and the orks on shore. Having grown up canoeing down the Red Deer River through the Alberta prairie, I find this an especially easy chapter to imagine, though I don't think my Albertan-painted imaginings are quite accurate.
Gollum creeping continuously behind the Fellowship, ready to potentially throttle them in their sleep, is quite a creepy mental image, and while it's comforting to know Aragorn has been warding them (not unlike Rangers and the Shire), it's all the more frightening once Frodo and Sam go off alone, without his protection. And the Argonath... is there anything that speaks to the fictional sightseer quite so much as these millennia-old megaliths? It puts the magnitude of Numenor's long-since-faded power into emotional terms, experiencing it this way.
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