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#41 |
The Kinslayer
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Darkening of Valinor
Lindil, I was wondering if you had a copy of the work that was done regarding the Darkening of Valinor so that we could see it. If I'm following rigthly this thread, you divided this chapter in several parts and each one of you did a revision in them.
How you by any chance a working text that you could post in the private forum or send by mail that would be great. I would like to comment on your work.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#42 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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This is a draft of an expanded version of the Story of the long chapter The darkening of Valionr and its subchapters. Our basis text is: History of Middle-earth; volume 10: Morgoth’s Ring, part 3: The Later Quenta Silmarillion; division II: The Second Phase; (LQ2n). All additions from other sources are marked.
For an easier reference the text is divided into the given sub-chapters. We have 7 groups of changes: DoV-zz: General changes given and discussed in the list below. These changes are taken up in the text, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers" DoV-FM-zz: Changes that occur in the sub-chapter of Of Finwe and Miriel. DoV-UM-zz: Changes that occur in the sub-chapter of Of the Feanor and the Unchaning of Melkor. DoV-UN-zz: Changes that occur in the sub-chapter of Of the Silmaril and the Unrest of the Noldor. DoV-DV-zz: Changes that occur in the sub-chapter of Of the Darkening of Valionr. DoV-RS-zz: Changes that occur in the sub-chapter of Of the Rape of the Silmaril. DoV-TQ-zz: Changes that occur in the sub-chapter of Of the Thieves’ Quarrel. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. General changes: DoV-01 Gnome/Gnomes/Gnomish to Elf/Elves/Elvish or Noldo/Noldor/Noldorin. "Gnomes" was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldoli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in "the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not." Then use Noldor. Exiles would be the exact replacement in sense. DoV-02 Tun to Túna per Sil77 DoV-03 Côr or Kôr to Tirion per Sil77 DoV-04 Gods to Valar per Tolkiens later general avoiding Gods for the Valar DoV-05 Teleri from BoLT to Vanyar DoV-06 Maidros and Maedhros to Maeðros per HoME X DoV-07 Inwe to Ingwë DoV-08Nornore to Eonwë So fare the general and regular changes. Now to the changes needed in the text: Quote:
DoV-FM-01: Ælfwine and his Old English is out, so we will give only the modernisation in the Footnote DoV-FM-02: Following the note to LQ 2 DoV-FM-03: I have given her the appropriate passages from Laws in full to show how I developed the shorter footnote. DoV-FM-04 to DoV-FM-07: Following the information from The Shibboleth of Feanor. DoV-UM-01: In this part LQ 2 is given only in notes. Therefore the text is here reconstructed. DoV-UM-02: In addition to the reconstruction I added “his eyes piercingly bright” from Sil 77 I do not know were this comes from so. DoV-UM-03 & DoV-UM-04: Reconstruction again. DoV-UN-01: When we add the description of the feast later, I think we should also use the description of Formenos here. DoV-UN-02: Is “Fëanorians” a word useable? If not “Fëanor and his following” will work. DoV-UN-03: I don’t see any wrath in Manwe in the later story. DoV-UN-04: A link is needed here since otherwise the name could not be understood. DoV-DV-01 & DoV-DV-02: Addition to harmonise the text with the add from BoLT. DoV-DV-03: This addition from BoLT was wish from Lindil and I agree that it is worth considering. DoV-DV-04: I do not know if later we had a replacement for the leading house of the Vanyar. DoV-DV-05: Here I did not change anything, but I see a need for discussion. Is he phrase “mingling once more with their own dear folk by Manwe’s clemency, that his festival might be duly kept” useable? Lindil skip it. DoV-DV-06: Lindil added here the redundant information that Salmar made the conches of Ulmo. But I don’t think that is necessary. DoV-DV-07: Manir and Suruli most go, so I used the wider Maiar instead. Lindil skip that phrase completely. DoV-DV-08: If the addition from BoLT is useable at all than this later part of the feast should be taken as well. DoV-DV-09: “Double Mirth” is the name of the feast and is no longer valid so “days of mirth” must suffice. DoV-DV-10: Harmonisation with the BoLT part again. DoV-RS-01 to DoV-RS-04: Reconstruction of the text. DoV-TQ-01: The LQ 2 breaks of before the end of the chapter is reached. Therefore I added the last part from AAm. DoV-TQ-02: This is missing in [b[AAm[/b] so I took it out of the QS. Respectfully Findegil |
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#43 |
The Kinslayer
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Thanks Findegil, and yes I'm still around. I was wondering if you would be able to send to me this draft for me to look over. It is not easy to read it in the Private Forum. I think that I had already have some work in this part that I want to compare it, so that is why I have asked lindil a long time ago.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#44 | ||||||
The Kinslayer
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Here are some changes that I would like to introduce:
DoV-UM-02.5A Quote:
DoV-UM-02.5B Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
DoV-DV-11 Quote:
Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." Last edited by Maédhros; 05-02-2006 at 11:15 PM. |
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#45 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Gerneral remark:
I would like to re-name your references. In XX-YY-ZZA, XX-YY-ZZb and so on the "A" should refer to different version of the same change. But that is not the case in your suggestions. Therefor let make it: DoV-UM-02.5A => DoV-UM-02.2 DoV-UM-02.5B => DoV-UM-02.5 DoV-UM-02.5C => DoV-UM-02.7 DoV-UN-00 => DoV-UM-00.5 (I do'nt like zero to much.) Now to your suggestions; DoV-UM-02.5A => DoV-UM-02.2: Agreed, but why do we delet a part of this? DoV-UM-02.5B => DoV-UM-02.5: Agreed. DoV-UM-02.5C => DoV-UM-02.7: Agreed. DoV-UN-00 => DoV-UM-00.5: Agreed. Mathan => Sarmo: I second this change but have to lock deper into the sources. I would like also to have Aiwendils input here. Maedhros I tried to send you a complet set of all TftE text but it failed. See your mail about this. Respectfully Findegil |
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#46 | ||||
The Kinslayer
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Quote:
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DoV-FM-00.5 §3 Míriel was the name of his mother. Her hair was like silver; and she was slender as a white flower in the grass. Soft and sweet was her voice, and she sang as she worked, like rippling water, in music without words. For her hands were more skilled to make things fine and delicate than any other hands even among the Noldor. By her the craft of needles was devised; and if but one fragment of the broideries of Míriel were seen in Middle-earth it would be held dearer than a king's realm; for the richness of her devices and the fire of their colours were as manifold and as bright as the wealth of leaf and flower and wing in the fields of Yavanna. Therefore she was called Serindë <SF a name which she had indeed already been given as a 'mother-name'. >.+ It was the only reference that we have of Míriel having a mother name. Quote:
From Shibboleth of Fëanor: Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#47 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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I know that this might be again a endless discussion but I would take up the Footnote to Aulendur along with passage about Mahtan/ Sarmo.
Sarmo is the right choice for his name for me. Respectfully Findegil |
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#48 | |||
The Kinslayer
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Quote:
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Or did you have something different in mind? Regarding Sarmo, I too think that we should use Sarmo, but the thing that makes me wonder is the ? in the end of the name. That is why I hesitate to change it. DoV-UM-02.1 Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." Last edited by Maédhros; 05-08-2006 at 09:25 PM. |
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#49 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
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I agree about Sarmo (actually, I could have sworn we discussed this before, but I could not find any such thread). It seems fairly clear to me that Sarmo is the later name - and even if it was followed by a question mark, it indicates that "Mahtan" had been rejected (or forgotten, which I suppose amounts to the same thing).
I also have no problem with the footnote. See, Findegil, not an endless discussion - unless Maedhros objects. |
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#50 |
King's Writer
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Nice. The Footnote is as I wanted it.
DoV-UM-02.1 Agreed. Anything else? Respectfully Findegil |
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#51 | ||
The Kinslayer
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Quote:
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I have now read the whole chapter that Findegil sent me and the additions from The Theft of Melko from the Book of Lost Tales are great. I have only found little things such as the missing dieresis of Aule, Ungoliant, and the replacement of Maeðros in a few instances.
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#52 |
King's Writer
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Seems we have done that quiet in a rush.
I will look for these "Scanos" as I name them (in comparision to typos). To aviod such failures as a missing replacment in future I have collected all the general changes agreed upon so far in on single thread. I will cintinue to add general changes as we go on with the editing. Respectfully Findegil |
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#53 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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I know you want to revise this chapter but before I forgot this, I want to point here a possible addition, perhaps like this:
Her father, {Mahtan}[Sarmo], <SF [who] was most widely known as Urundil 'copper-lover' >, was a great smith, and among those of the Noldor most dear to the heart of Aulë, <SF for he was an Aulendur and entered into {Aulë’s} [the Vala’s] service>. <SF He usually wore a band of copper about his head. His hair was not as dark or black as was that of most of the Ñoldor, but brown, and had glints of coppery-red in it. ><SF marginal note VT 41, And had beard, for althougth Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. {Nerdanel's father}[This] was excepcional, {being}[for he was] only early in his second.> Of {Mahtan}[Sarmo] Nerdanel learned much of crafts that women of the Noldor seldom used: the making of things of metal and stone. You can redact it better. Greetings |
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#54 |
King's Writer
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This is to be considered, since I do not see any other place for it. But is this information worth the interuption of the text?
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#55 | |
King's Writer
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Locking into this again I found a better place for the information about Sarmo's beard:
Chapter 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië: Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
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#56 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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What about the additions from "The Shibboleth of Fëanor" and the "Laws and Custom of the Eldar"?
Also, "The Converse of Manwë and Eru"? It would expand the sub-chapter "Of Finwë and Míriel" greatly. P.S. In addition, in the "Shibboleth" it is said that Finwë sought the counsel of Manwë AFTER he and Indis had met and desired to get married.
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#57 |
King's Writer
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Laws and custom joined with The Converse of Manwë and Eru were in my 'plan' part of volume 3: THE LORE OF THE WISE.
As for farther additions from The Shibboleth of Fëanor: They are in part contradicting the Story line of The Later Silmarillion. Since I think (please cross check) that SF is the later source, we might have to change big parts of this chapter again. Respectfully Findegil |
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#58 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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"Shibboleth" is certainly later. From around 1968. Problem is (perhaps not that much of a problem, if we manage to find a convincing solution) that the "Shibboleth" has the greater 144 solar years = 1 Valian year. So if Fëanor was born in YT 1169 and Míriel died in YT 1170, by that greater number, Fëanor could have still grown to an adult by the time of Míriel's death.
Of course, one could argue that if are going to take the lower number (9.58 solar years = 1 Valian year), Fëanor COULD (theoretically) have grown to an "adult", so to speak - c. 20 of our years is the greatest figure for Fëanor's age at the time of Míriel's death. However, it is said that the Elves do not reach their full physical stature until the age of 50, and are not fully mature until 100 years of age. Again, Fëanor could be an exception to the rule - he is, after all, called the "Spirit of Fire" by his mother, and it doesn't seem so unlikely (at least to me) that he could have achieved his full stature (at least physically) by this time. Then again, you could also argue that by "fully grown" he was fully grown MENTALLY. OR you could just abandon the notion of Elven children maturing more slowly than mortal children (physically). In any case, there are many possible "solutions", and I think that the information given in the "Shibboleth" contains some vital character motivations behind Fëanor's later actions - especially his mother's use of "th" as opposed to the later general change to "s" - after all, the essay IS called the "Shibboleth of Fëanor".
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#59 |
King's Writer
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The change in the calculations of times is a more general point. We should probably discuss that in a thread of it own. In our text we can avoid being specific with any numbers of years or other units.
Since DoV realy is the first chapter that the project worked on conclusivly, a re-check for other possible additions especially from younger sources (as SF) is for sure needed. But for the time being I think the group has opened enough indeepth discussions. The detailed discussion of the possible merger of texts including [b]SF[7b] has to wait. Respectfully Findegil |
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#60 | ||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Ok, I have read throught the proposed changes by Findegil and Maedhros, and I have some comments.
Of Finwe and Miriel I have only two comments for this section. Firstly, I at first wondered why the (far more substantial) Statute of Finwe and Miriel text was not used throughout to greatly expand this section, but I noticed that the very same text is referenced in the chapter itself. This made me think that these additions were not added bc the Statute is to be included along with Laws and Customs in VOLUME III: THE LORE OF THE WISE. If this is so, then I wholeheartedly agree. If, however, this is not to be included later, then I see no reason not to give the much fuller accounts here. Secondly, In DoV-FM-03 I was confused as to the reason for the inclusion of this portion of the Statute. As there were no other inclusions, this seemed odd as the singular exception, and indeed turns the footnote into a full page of text. In addition, there was no direction by Tolkien to include this account here, so I am confused as to why it was done. Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor in the paragraph of DoV-UM-03 there was a change to LQ that was left out of your version: Quote:
Quote:
I made an addition from AAm: Quote:
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Of the Darkening of Valinor I just have a question. Is it Ungoliante or Ungoliant? Also, in the LQ version, Ungoliant and Melkor split up, but in all others they remain together and kill the trees as a unit. is LQ the way to go? Minor note: Quote:
DoV-DV-03: at the end of this paragraph is the bit: Quote:
DoV-DV-05: This bit is odd, but it might be better to simply remove it. Feanor is the only one of the Noldor who would require the clemency of Manwe, and his presence is told later. Of the Rape of the Silmarils DoV-RS-04: The words "in Aman" should be added, as it is elsewhere said that the Elves had been killed in the hither lands, which is why Orome brought them weapons. Of the Thieves' Quarrel Looks good! That was everything I saw, the rest looks good. |
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#61 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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just putting in a reminder here that the Shibboleth additions about Sarmo must be removed, due to their inclusion in chapter 6.
In addition, the addition of the draining of Kullulin and Silindrin in the Darkening of Valinor section. |
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#62 |
King's Writer
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And we have to remove Celeborn from the addition that descrips Galadriels stay in Aqualondë.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#63 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Where was this addition made? I saw no post about it on this thread.
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#64 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Also, I have been attempting to make a draft of the Shibboleth of Feanor text for Volume III and I belive it is too intertwined with the story itself to stand alone, as much therein is not used elsewhere. Therefore, I think we need to take up more of it in these chapters. In addition, there is something that the SF changed from the LQ version: Feanor was already full-grown by the time Miriel passed to Mandos. This changes many things in this, and also in the Laws and Customs.
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#65 | |
King's Writer
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If I never posted this change here, than it was only in my private copy of the text that I added it, sorry for that. Nonetheless here is how I would deal with Galadriel in this chapter. Since Celeborn must be a Sindar per LotR we have to change DoV-UN-00.5:
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Findegil |
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#66 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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The end of the paragraph given before this insertion, there are other paragraphs which were never proposed. Galadriel was not mentioned in paragraph 51, so what additions are there before this? I saw in your plain text version that you had included some, but I would like to see the full sourcing. I see that they are from the Shibboleth, which is good, bc I think we need to use more of that. The real challenge of this section will be getting the s > þ change into the narrative.
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 10-06-2017 at 11:42 AM. |
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#67 | ||
King's Writer
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Ofen enough in this thread we mentioned that this chapter need to be updated. The reason for this is the observed differences between what is included so fare in our editing the greatly changed story line as seen in the Shibboleth. But before we do this it seems necessary to collect here changes done to the text as it stands now, that have not been mentioned in this thread. This might have had different reason, either these changes were added while discussing other chapters, or I myself did them silently without mention here, for which, if it was the case, I apologise.
In the following I will mention all the changes that are not included in my expanded draft from "posting 42". Some of these have been discussed above and in this cases I give a link to the first post in which they occur. DoV-UM-02.1 / DoV-FM-03.5: This change was added by Maedhors in "posting 48". But since it is not in the section ‘Of the Feanor and the Unchaning of Melkor’ but in ‘Of Finwe and Miriel’ I will change the editing marker to DoV-FM-03.5. DoV-UM-02.2 / DoV-UM-02.5A; DoV-UM-02.5 / DoV-UM-02.5B; DoV-UM-02.7 / DoV-UM-02.5C; DoV-UN-00.5 / DoV-UN-00; DoV-DV-11 and DoV-FM-08: These changes were all supposed by Maedhros in "posting 44". Nobody ever commented on DoV-FM-08. But I think that was rather by accident then by propose. It seems that it got lost. And I did not add it into my working copy of the texts. Since I sopose we will take it up. I corrected this now. DoV-UM-02.7: This addition about the father of Míriel was later removed into the chapter 6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië. Probably it was wrong to remove the editing marker so I reinstalled it in my working copy. DoV-UN-00.2, DoV-UN-00.5and DoV-UN-00.7: These were probably inserted by me silently while working on my draft for 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor, again my apologies for that. Re-reading it now I would also like to change the placement. It might fit better one and a half § earlier, since their it does not break the line of story telling as much: Quote:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#68 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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I proposed two AAm additions for the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor as well. In my opinion, the most difficult section is Finwe and Miriel, and the rest are much more straightforward. It might be best to discuss the others first before diving into the difficulties of Finwe and Miriel.
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#69 | ||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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While Fin and I wait for Aiwendil to continue his review of our work, I thought we might as well start discussion on reaching a consensus for this (very complex) chapter. I will take it section by section, keeping all of the previous editing markers (roughly) as they were, and adding new ones. This will include my attempt to work the Shibboleth storyline into the LQ chapter, and may very well be rough, so please bear with me while this is worked out.
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DoV-FM-00.5: SF addition. Agreed DoV-FM-01: editing out Aelfwine. Agreed DoV-FM-02: LQ change. Agreed DoV-FM-02.1: Because of the SF change where Miriel raised Feanor until adulthood, I had to move the paragraph about the growth of Feanor earlier, and make a few changes to erase the Finwe = single parent bits. DoV-FM-03.2: replacing the LQ text with SF expansion. Agreed DoV-FM-02.2: This must be removed, since in the new version, he is already full-grown. DoV-FM-02.3: SF expansion detailing her mood. DoV-FM-02.4: SF dialogue DoV-FM-02.5: This is an interesting lens of looking at the situation that seemed lacking in the LQ text, so i took it from the SF DoV-FM-02.6: We have lost the antecedent to the "he" with all the additions, so I changed it to Finwe. DoV-FM-02.7: Dialogue of Manwe insertion. This bit of dialogue from SF also makes the whole Miriel re-housing story from the Laws and Customs text impossible DoV-FM-03: Because of the Manwe dialogue, this footnote insertion is impossible, so I have removed it. DoV-FM-03.1: this paragraph was moved earlier. DoV-FM-04: SF family tree change. Agreed DoV-FM-05: same as 04. Agreed DoV-FM-06: Genealogy corrections. Agreed DoV-FM-07: same as 06. Agreed DoV-FM-08: SF addition about the mood of Feanor. I took up the paragraph in full, since it is a very interesting look at his psychology and I saw no real reason to break it up the way Fin had done. It does not repeat exactly anything that follows in the LQ paragraph, so I think simply inserting it is best. DoV-FM-09: This is too meta, and should be removed from the footnote. Quote:
DoV-UM-02: Added description from the Sil77. Agreed DoV-UM-02.2: VT addition. Agreed DoV-UM-02.5: I have removed these additions, because they have been moved to Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie. DoV-UM-02.7: same as 02.5 DoV-UM-03: LQ change DoV-UM-03.5: a missed LQ change in Fin's text DoV-UM-04: another missed LQ change DoV-UM-04.5: an addition from AAm with added info. Quote:
DoV-UN-00.2: This is an addition from AAm to expand. DoV-UN-00.3: This proverb is an addition from AAm DoV-UN-00.4: This is an addition about Galadriel from the SF. Agreed DoV-UN-00.5: This is an addition about Galadriel from the UT. Agreed DoV-UN-00.6: I changed the wording from "she was about to seek leave" to "she planned to seek leave" because in the original, it is only the first part of a sentence that says she was about to seek leave when the Flight of the Noldor happened. This just flows better. DoV-SF-01: I tried to add in all the pertinent Shibboleth linguistic info that was relevant to the story, and I figured we might as well take up the subheading as well. DoV-SF-02: This first paragraph is edited to make it work as an opening paragraph. The given opening is Tolkien speculating, and is not usable. DoV-SF-03: Edited out the Mother-name info, since it is inserted in the Finwe and Miriel section. DoV-SF-04: I skipped the entire summary of the Finwe Miriel plotline and jumped to the shibboleth. DoV-SF-05: This is the last relevant section, about Galadriel specifically. DoV-SF-06: This is from the first section, and as it had interesting information, I figured I would add it there. With that we return to the base chapter. DoV-UN-01: LT expansion for detail. Agreed DoV-UN-02: Fin used Feanorians here, but I think People of Feanor is safer. DoV-UN-03: change bc of the later conception. Agreed DoV-UN-04: added in order to introduce the name Formenos. Agreed Quote:
DoV-DV-01: This was changed because of the addition of the Lost Tales expansion. Agreed. DoV-DV-02: same as 01. Agreed DoV-DV-03: This is the expansion from Lost Tales. DoV-DV-03.5: Removed because of the magic problems. DoV-DV-04: As the term Ingwi has not occurred in the text before, I added Ingwe in as an explanation, and updated the Inwir term of LT to the Shibboleth Ingwi. DoV-DV-05: The statement about the Noldor and the Teleri must be removed because of the changed conception. DoV-DV-06: Personally, I would say "Salmar Lirillo" and leave the surname in, as nothing in later writings denies the name's existence, and we have left his other surname of Noldorin in the second chapter. DoV-DV-07: Change because of the Maiar concept. Agreed DoV-DV-08: Next LT addition. Agreed DoV-DV-09: I am not sure why the LT name was removed. In the new conception, no name is given to the festival, so I see no reason not to use this as the name. DoV-DV-10: edited to conform with LT addition. Agreed DoV-DV-11: AAm addition. Agreed DoV-DV-12: Change based on the second chapter, edited from what Fin had proposed originally based on the final version of chapter 2. Quote:
DoV-RS-02: I see no real reason for this change, but I also have no issue with it. DoV-RS-03: Expansion using AAm again. Agreed. DoV-RS-04: This has to be changed because LQ was a correction to a mistake he made, and my editorial addition is added because it is said that weapons were brought to the Elves in Middle-earth because they were being hunted by the monsters of Morgoth, so they have been slain before. Quote:
DoV-TQ-02: QS detail added in. Agreed If I have missed anything in this (very long) post, feel free to let me know, and I will add it in. I would say that taking the discussion section by section is best, so as not to be inundated with comments. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 11-30-2017 at 08:03 PM. |
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