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12-03-2004, 03:23 PM | #81 | |
King's Writer
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If we change Gelion to Duin Dhaer than a change from Saranathrad to Athrad D(h)aer would look strange from me. But that is only a matter of taste. Nevertheless I wold rather take Athrad i-Negyth. Harathrad is clearly older than Athrad Daer, thus Athrad D(h)aer or Athrad i-Negyth are the possible names. But we do not know if Dhaer or Daer is the later. If Daer is later we have to change Gelion to Duin Daer.
Concerning the "Lamp of Faëry": Unfinished Tales; part I: The first age; chapter 1: Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin; Note 2: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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12-04-2004, 09:59 AM | #82 | ||||
Late Istar
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Maedhros wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Findegil wrote: Quote:
Maedhros wrote: Quote:
That leaves us with the "Dhaer" vs. "Daer" question, and I can see no way of guessing which is later. Perhaps "Daer", since it shows up in "Duin Daer" as well, while "Dhaer" only appears once? I don't know. I think we are agreed on the storyline, though. I do want to look it over when I get a chance, but I can think of no further problems at the moment. |
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12-05-2004, 12:10 AM | #83 | |
The Kinslayer
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Where are we right now then?
It seems that we have agreed on the most difficult points regarding the storyline. One would think that we would follow a very similar path like the one we used in the Fall of Gondolin, in which we took the later text Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin to the end and then we joined it with the Tale of the Fall of Gondolin. In this particular case it would be the Wanderings of Húrin with the Tale of Turambar and the Tale of the Nauglafring, but unlike in our work with the Fall of Gondolin, it is a little different. In the Fall of Gondolin, the evolution of the characters didn't change that much as the story evolved contrary to that of the Tale of the Nauglafring. The elves of Gondolin, there is really not that big a difference between those in the Tale and those in later Tuor, while there is a huge difference between the "wood elves" in the Tale and the later "elves of Nargothrond". Also in the Tale Tinwelint has no treasure in comparison to the latter Thingol who does. The good thing however is that Thingol attitude hasn't changed much as the story changed over time. I also wonder about the treasure of Nargothrond. In the Tale, a great deal of the treasure was of "unworked" gold but I wonder why that should be in our later story. At the time of the Tale, the Rodothlim were very different that the Elves of Nargothrond. Why would the later Elves of Nargothrond had a great part of their treasure in "unworked" gold if they were the same who brought from Valinor a greater part of their gems than any of the other Ñoldorian exiles? From the Book of Lost Tales II: Tale of Turambar Quote:
The question that now come is this: How many details can we add from the Tale to our story? Aiwendil, Findegil has proposed an addition of the last part of the attack of the sons of Fëanor with Dior, and I liked it a lot, I wonder what do you think about it and if we can get away with using that? Because Findegil and me have worked in our versions of the story, we are in a way very advanced but I wonder which text will we use as our base text for the story now.
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12-06-2004, 03:37 AM | #84 | ||
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Quote:
The next step is to replace phrases and sentences of that basis text with more detailed material. The crux is now not to change the storyline by the exchange or adddition. Thus the basis text is Q30 and we have to groups of changes RD-SL-zz for changes done to make the storylinie fit our understanding developed above and RD-EX-zz for expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. I have already started that process and will bring forth a text in the privat forum soon. In the moment I do not see how I can rip that text of enough content to post a version of it here in the public forum, but I will think about that when the text is complet (because I at least highly disire to make the discussion understandable for (interested) visitors). Just to make Maédhros more confident with the process: I a sure you that I had your draft 4 in front of me when I search for possible addition. I do that work really by a comparison of three texts (not that easy to do): The text given in post #65 with the emendations discussed there after; Maédhros draft #4 and my owne version made in response to Maédhros draft #1. To make that comparison easier to follow, I did adopt the §-numbers form draft #1 (as I did in my version, but without each § mentioned that was droped or moved). In addition each change will be indicated by one of our "editorial markers" (RD-yy-zz). So fare for the moment, and I now will go back to the work on the text. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: Quote:
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12-07-2004, 01:16 AM | #85 | |
Late Istar
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Go ahead and post it. I will, alas, be quite busy over the next few days and won't get much time to look things over.
Could we perhaps post the changes in the public forum by only indicating the beginning and end of extracts? For example, for a long insertion from TN: Quote:
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12-07-2004, 05:56 AM | #86 |
King's Writer
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I have posted the text in the privat forum. I stiked to the sections Maédhros has once made, even if they do not sweet my text very good.
A version for the public forum will follow as soon as I can manage to creat it. So please restrict yourself for a short time and start the discussion here in the public forum, after I posted the text here. The public version will ofcourse not have a "cleaned" text and it will be much harder to follow. Therefore I would recommend the privat version to any member. I am sure that not all my addtions to the text will make it to the final version, but I hope that my version does bring the project forward. At least the "cleaned" text should be a nice read. So sit back, take some time and enjoy! Respectfully Findegil |
12-07-2004, 12:11 PM | #87 |
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Things worked out faster than I thought. The version for the public forum is also posted now. So please feel free to comment. Any discussion is awaited in happy expectancy.
Respectfully Findegil |
12-07-2004, 07:16 PM | #88 |
Late Istar
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I look forward to reading it as soon as I get a chance.
For the moment, though, one thing that occurred to me: If we change Gelion to Duin Daer, what is to be done with the name "Thargelion"? I can think of no reasonable way of replacing it, but I'm not sure that such a difficulty could be considered a valid case for rejecting the change and retaining "Gelion". |
12-07-2004, 07:52 PM | #89 |
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The least we can do is take the other names of the land "Dor Caranthir" or Talath Rhûnen" at least we could use the discriptive translation "The Land beyond Duin Dear". The only problem would than be the one passage were all these names are given.
Respectfully Findegil |
12-08-2004, 10:57 AM | #90 |
Late Istar
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I don't mean to sound too insolent (as so far it has been the two of you that have done all the hard work for this section) - but do you think that perhaps we should discuss one subsection at a time, as we did for FoG? That would keep matters from getting too confusing, and would certainly make it easier for me to jump in and comment when I have a free moment (which is I think something that should happen tomorrow or Friday).
Findegil, I guess you're right about the alternate names for Thargelion. It seems a shame to lose a shade of meaning there, but I think we can live with it. |
12-08-2004, 11:40 AM | #91 | |
The Kinslayer
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There are things that I think that you might make observations, so I'm glad to hear your opinons.
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12-08-2004, 01:58 PM | #92 | |
King's Writer
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Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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12-10-2004, 11:27 AM | #93 | |
Late Istar
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I've posted comments on the first section, though, and should be able to find a little more time for all this in the near future. |
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12-15-2004, 11:13 AM | #94 | |||
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Now I am myself the one to re-open the storyline discussion.
Aiwendil wrote: Quote:
Quote:
After we have removed Ælfwine from our version we can not use either version of the introduction without any change, but it might be much easier to rework the first one than the second one. But that is not the issue here. The question here is: Do we consider Mablung alive in the days of Dírhaval (as he is named in the second version) or not? If we consider him alive, do we still see him as a part of the fatal hunting party of Thingol? As a matter of fact I see even more need to change the details of Thingols death: to avoid another failure with Mablung I made in intens search and have read all scenes were he is named in The History of Middle-Earth. By that search I discoverde the follwing Note applied to the sentence of Thingols death beside Mablung in TN: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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12-16-2004, 05:59 AM | #95 |
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After providing the facts in the last post, I will, after some thought, give away my oppinion about Mablung and the hunt:
For me the information that Mablung did survie to speak with Dírhaval at the Haevens is valid. With that it would be easiest to skip him from the hunt completly. But the easiest way is not the one I would go. He is Thingols chief thane and by his deads in the original Wolf-hunt I would find it strange if he would not have been there when the celebration hunt was so special in that year. Thus I think, if we let him take part in the hunt but mention that he was not with the small company that was lured outside the girdle we only make explicit what is to be expacted. Looking at the note, I think that Naugaldur killed Thingol when he was bound by the Necklace. It was Tolkiens last (formulated) idea and it would make Melians and Berens acrusing Naugladur as a morderer more just. In addition it fits very well with the cruse of the Nauglamír and its effect in the fight of Beren and Naugladur. Respectfully Findegil |
12-16-2004, 09:29 AM | #96 | |
The Kinslayer
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Quote:
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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12-16-2004, 11:22 AM | #97 |
Late Istar
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The story in "Aelfwine and Dirhavel" 1 that Mablung survived and came to the mouths of Sirion certainly supercedes the story in TN. And we have no later evidence that the story reverted to the earlier one. So I would say that in our version Mablung must be supposed to survive and make it to the havens.
In view of the invalidation of the story of Mablung as told in TN, my first inclination is to take Findegil's easy way out and leave him out of the hunt completely. |
12-16-2004, 01:05 PM | #98 |
The Kinslayer
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So, we all agree on Mablung it seems. Then I think that we can move foward to the next section.
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12-17-2004, 05:18 AM | #99 |
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Okay, so we will take Mablung out of the hunt completly. I will provide a subtitution text for the scene later on. Hopefuly before we start with section 3.
I agree with Maédhros that section is done so fare and that we should go on with "Outlaws in Menegroth". Respectfully Findegil |
12-28-2004, 04:57 PM | #100 | |||||||||||||
Wight
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Great Work
Well, I'm hardly now more than a pest, and I must commend Findegil's editing. Perhaps, when my children are grown, I can delve into the textual nitty-gritty. Or, perhaps, I should try anyway, but in addition to my famous daughter, I am now blessed with Aidan son of Arthur. And, having now read the whole HoME, I can't think of a revised Silmarillion without the revised cosmology, which seems easier to rectify than some of things dealt with here.
In any event, allow me some concessions and arguments about what I had intended in response to Findegil. Also, I adjure all "Fan-Fiction," I don't even read it, but I am open-minded about the alternatives that exist for understanding JRRT's more general and allusional passages. We are not dealing with hard facts. Quote:
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I for one do not believe that his family was cursed by Morgoth in any particular way. Morgoth wot perhaps something of the fate that awaited them, and he actively influenced it further through both mystical powers and tangible actions, but they had the ability to control and moderate (though not conquer) such doom by being less prideful, impulsive and haughty. They remained true and faithful to the struggle, nevertheless, achieving more than some of the first-born, and are remembered by the Elves not only out of pity, but as great Elf-friends. Hurin is too, and Morgoth's goal in showing him a distorted picture of his family's ill-fortune was to manipulate his bitterness. That such a bubble is so easily burst by Melian I find very fitting. Still, drop it if you think CT was off base. Quote:
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Also, in view of protest from someone else, I must say that Mim's murder cannot be used at all as a pretext by Great Dwarves. They clearly would have cared less about him. Quote:
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Therefore, I'd succinctly go with the later reference of Thingol's being lured out beyond the Girdle, the only explanation being implied about his rage and carelessness in wanting to confront the Dwarves, who dared to wage war. Makes sense. Why would he just sit tight and let the Dwarves harry his borders? He's also easily incensed one gathers. Let Mablung's fate stay unreported, though. The notion of treachery having played a role can simply be dismissed as a wicked rumor, that reflected only how the lies of Morgoth and the Doom of Mandos had indeed managed to enter into the hearts of the Doriathrim. Quote:
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Again, from what the eye catches I think fine work is going on, but a thin chapter it will remain. My compliments.
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The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled. Last edited by Man-of-the-Wold; 12-28-2004 at 07:51 PM. |
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01-13-2005, 11:36 PM | #101 |
Animated Skeleton
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All this work on Doriath looks fantastic, guys. You make it look like it could have been done in 1977.
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09-10-2015, 06:54 AM | #102 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Can you explain me step by step Ufedhin was rejected?
Here is a passage from the Narn i-Chîn Húrin: Quote:
Which led me to believe that a single Elf could guide the Dwarven army into Doriath following "Ariadne's thread". Besides - why would the Dwarven army attack Doriath if they knew that it was protected by the Girdle? I would seem a bit idiotic.
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Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-10-2015 at 07:02 AM. |
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09-10-2015, 05:17 PM | #103 |
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Ufedhin's rejection was not only conected to the gridle. Anyhow, if simple knowledge of a way through would have been enough to overcome its protection, the dwarves would not have needed any traitor, as they often had been welcomed guests in Menegroth.
Ufedhin was rejected because the majority of project members found it unprobable that there was a traitor from Doriath to the Dwarves at all. I also imagin the gridle like to a Labyrinth. But more in the vain of the Old Forest east of the Shire: All ways you could find would lead you out again sooner or later. Only if you were a welcomed guest a way would open for you to go in, and even then it would probably be safer to have a guide. And in thinking in that direction explains way many members found Ufedhin would not have been succesfull: Coming back with bad intetion against Doriath would lead the trees to force you out again equaly if you had know a former way in or not. Respectfuly Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-13-2015 at 08:05 AM. |
09-10-2015, 08:07 PM | #104 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Perhaps. But why would the Dwarves decide to attack a kingdom which they knew was impenetrable?
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09-12-2015, 05:03 AM | #105 | |
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Also - the matter of Gereth and Evranin (and Nielthi).
You said that they are not valid Sindarin, but could they still be kept nonetheless? I hate losing material from the texts.
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09-12-2015, 04:35 PM | #106 |
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On the one hand, it is not clear that Dwarves did know that a bad intention against the inhabitants would mean that they could not enter Doriath. And the implicit theory behind the Dwarven attack, was that they did know that Thingol would be at that time on his hunt to celebrate the Charcharoth-hunt and they would try and succed to lure him beyond his borders. Once they killed Thingol they tried (probably because they thought that he was responsible for it) and found that the girdle was removed and use that fact.
Gereth and Evranin and Nielthi: To include them would mean to change a fact in the Sindarin tongue as it was when Tolkien last worked on it. Our rules are strongly against it. Respectfuly Findegil |
08-16-2017, 11:43 PM | #107 | ||||||||
Quentingolmo
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Some Thoughts
Hi all! This is my first post here, and I know I am quiiiite a bit late to the party! That being said, I just want to say, I am absolutely floored by the work that's been done on this chapter in particular, as out of the confusion and chaos has been created a flowing narrative that tells a compelling and vastly improved version of the story in the QS77.
My humble thoughts are almost certainly unwarranted, but I did have a few of them while reading through the text. Most of them are in regards to specific deletions or changes in the texts, as every story decision makes 100% sense to me. The first one is a relatively minor point, as I assume it is a simple slip. Quote:
The second is also a minor point where I was confused: Quote:
The next point is a very minor instance of awkward phrasing: Quote:
The next is a simple question I had about a name deletion. I know that many of the hastily mentioned Elvish characters had their names removed bc of linguistic issues, but in this passage: Quote:
The next is a question regarding a theme in the Lost Tales that was abandoned largely in later writings: Quote:
The next is a simple grammatical point: Quote:
The next is a terminology that seems suspect to me in the context of the later legendarium: Quote:
The next is a minor question: Quote:
That was everything I saw, besides a few minor spelling mistakes. I'm honestly still blown away by the amount of work this took, and the cohesion and near perfection of the final product. This is truly a testament to the love people have for these stories. |
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08-17-2017, 09:15 AM | #108 | ||||
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First of all: Welcome to this quite corner of the Barrow-Downs!
Thanks for your thoughts. I will comment on them as I can: RD-EX-24: I do not remember if we discussed about the blood or if I only thought about it. My idea for keeping was that the gold could well have been stained with blood during the plundering of Nargothrond and that neither Mîm nor Húrin's band would have taken upon themselves the cleaning work. RD-EX-31: As far as I remember we could not find any source beside QS77 that in which the Dwarves were already present at Menegroth when Húrin brought the treasure. In such cases we tend to us the information of other sources. RD-EX-39: Good catch. The original text was: 'for the things the Nauglath had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old.' In the new context of the Noldor from Nargothrond such comparision seems impossible. I think we should simply skip the 'more': Quote:
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RD-EX-60: Good catch. But the cure is not so easy since Maedhros and I felt that he 'when' is needed. See the discussion of that here: Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth Nonetheless I agree that we should change the sentence. What about: Quote:
RD-EX-79: Again very true. I suppose we change it to:[qoute]§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that {it}[Ascar] {guards}guarded [near by] nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.[/Quote] Posted by ArcusCalion: Quote:
In the name of all that participated in the project so far, I would like to thank you for your compliments. I hope honestly that your enthusiasm may wake up the interest in the project by some former contributors or new once. Anyhow I am this time inclined to guide and enhance the new impulse in a different and hopefully more effective way then I did when Arvegil145 or Gothmog, LoB stirred the quite of this Barrow. So guys, if you are still around, take a look, probably the time has come for some progress. Respectfully Findegil |
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08-17-2017, 02:24 PM | #109 | ||||
Quentingolmo
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Thanks for looking them over!
RD-EX-24: it seemed discordant to me when I read it, as the blood on the gold is not mentioned previously. Maybe insert the line about the goldbeing drenched in blood into the killing of Mim? For example: Quote:
RD-EX-31: Ah I see, this makes sense. RD-EX-39: Your suggestion is perfect. RD-SL-19: Ah, ok I get it. RD-EX-54: Gotcha. I missed the Belegost/Nogrod distinction, and you're right. RD-EX-60: Your suggestion remains a sentence fragment, grammatically. The "when" begins a subsidiary clause, but then the "but" cuts off any primary clause from forming. Removing the "but" would not work tho, as it conveys an essential sense of contrast between the two phrases. Perhaps: Quote:
RD-EX-79: perfect! As for the minor spelling mistakes, two I have already mentioned above, and the others are not numerous: Quote:
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I am eager to put a lot of work into helping you with this Findegil! This has been a dream of mine since I first read the Book of Lost Tales in middle school. What section remains in need of editing work? or has everything been finalized, and new sections needed? |
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08-18-2017, 11:31 AM | #110 | ||
King's Writer
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RD-EX-24: I see your point. But the addition you made will not go. If the blood is a problem it has to go:
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RD-EX-67: In that case I think the safest way is simply to skip 'the fairy': Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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10-07-2017, 09:52 PM | #111 | |
Late Istar
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I had only a few notes on this chapter, and from the way they are written it seems clear that I had intended to go back and provide more detailed comments and writing them up better before posting them here, but here they are.
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10-08-2017, 05:32 PM | #112 |
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§37a (§20): Please specify a bit more what is not okay.
RD-EX-61.2: Agreed. §43a (§27): I corrected Dwarf-road. But from Shibboleth we learn that 'Amord' would have been the translation of Ambarto. And that is the name that Feanor gave to his son instade of Umbarto 'Fated' that Nerdanel gave. So Amrod is burned with the ships, while Amros lifed. RD-EX-79: The present tens is corrected. [near by] was added because the treassure was drowned actively by the Nandor-Elves of Beren in Ascar and the Great Ford leads over Duin Daer not over Ascar. RD-EX-81: Why? The warning perfectly fits the warning to Thingol. And how else would we think Melian could react? Last sentence: I don't think we should change this. It is a forward reference. But that isnot uncommon. Respectfully Findegil |
10-08-2017, 06:10 PM | #113 | |||
Late Istar
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§37a (§20): I honestly have no recollection of what I objected to here, but I will review the section tonight or tomorrow.
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10-08-2017, 06:30 PM | #114 |
King's Writer
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Okay, Amros seems to be a general change that I did do through all texts.
If you are adamant on removing the last sentence, I agree to it. Respectfully Findegil |
10-09-2017, 12:23 PM | #115 | |
Late Istar
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§37a: I think my main problem with this section is still the insertion of the note from the Tale of Years, which was obviously never intended to stand in any narrative, and sounds out of place. I also think the insertion from note 12 to the TN is a little clumsy. I propose:
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- The TY note presents two options: that Thingol was lured outside his borders or that he was induced to go to war beyond his borders. It reads poorly to keep both these alternatives, but hitherto we did so in the interest of ambiguity and not "inventing" definite facts. However, it now seems to me that in our version, where this all occurs after Thingol has gone out hunting, the second alternative is impossible. That is, if Thingol was "induced to go to war", he would not have ridden beyond the Girdle with just a "small company of arms"; he would have gone back first to Menegroth, raised a war band, and then gone forth. Therefore, I think we should eliminate the alternative and merely say that he was lured outside. - It seems to me to make more sense to insert note 12 to TN before we say that Naugladur swept the king's head off, instead of adding it afterward as a retroactive explanation. Not a big point, but I think it reads much better this way. One small point - in "Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees", I'm not sure I understand why "there" was removed. |
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10-09-2017, 01:25 PM | #116 |
Quentingolmo
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agreed this reads much more smoothly, anbd I actually had the same qualm recently about the two alternatives when I was making my "clean" copy.
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10-09-2017, 02:54 PM | #117 | |
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I do not fully agree to this. I find your first change to heavy. So what about:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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10-09-2017, 03:57 PM | #118 | |
Late Istar
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I think this suggestion is good, except that "outside" and "beyond" are redundant. So:
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10-09-2017, 04:17 PM | #119 |
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Okay, looks good.
Respectfully Findegil |
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