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09-01-2017, 09:01 PM | #1 | |
Quentingolmo
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Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 11; page 173-175, based on the complete text given in HoME 5; pages 245-248. I have not tracked the changes from QS to LQ, but have taken them up silently into the text. Wherever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: SM-xx for questions of name change, phrase change, or some canon question. SM-EX-xx for expansions to the text. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information Quote:
SM-EX-02: This insert allows Manwe to learn about the arrival of the Noldor in Beleriand and the location of Melkor, and since this is simply referenced in later versions, it is good to see it in full. SM-01: This passage I have removed because Angband exists in this version. In addition, the name Qerkaringa is not given elsewhere, and as its updated form in later Quenya would be Quercaringa i gave that here hesitantly. If it is deemed too unsure it is best to be dropped. SM-EX-03: This insert provides the fullest account of the growth of the Sun and Moon from the trees, and although in later versions there is no mention of Vana or Lorien having any part in it, I have tried to word it so that Yavanna and Nienna still sing and water the mould with tears, and that the songs of Lorien and Vana only give it the extra oomph, so to speak. In my opinion, the passage in the QS doesn't eliminate the possibility of their involvement, as it is shortened simply due to compression, but that is, I suppose, a matter for debate. SM-02: Urwendi is the old maiden with a similar function to Arien, so I changed it here and subsequently. In addition, I changed Kulullin to Culullin, because the general change of K to C in Quenya of the LotR. SM-03: This part about the rekindling of the trees depends on the second prophecy of Mandos, so i marked it to make sure it is to be kept. SM-04: This i removed because they had sat at the feet of the Valar in council during the debate of Finwe and Miriel. SM-05: The two starmakings of Varda later gained distinction in type and time, so I removed the reference to both being done with silver light of the tree. SM-05.2: I apologize, I noticed this late, and thus it has an awkward number. I removed this bit because Varda's stars have a different conception in later myth, and to have them described feels sketchy in terms of canonicity. SM-EX-03: The LT is simply the fullest extent of the account. SM-06: because of the bit I removed, the previous reference to the phials is gone, so I edit the text to include an introduction for them. Following this, I moved the bits about Lorien and Telperion and the Moon from their place as second to first, since that is the order in the later mythos. SM-07: I kept the name Silpion bc in Of Valinor and the Two Trees it is said to be the name Lorien gave it. SM-08: In this version the Sun isnt made yet SM-09: same as the last one SM-10: same as the last one. Ulmo's words have been lost bc of the order of the Sun and Moon. SM-11: In keeping with 05.2 I removed this SM-EX-04: Switching up Vana and Lorien to make it work, and moving the earlier bit forward about the Sun. SM-12: As the Valar are basically angels, I doubt they would be blinded. SM-EX-05: adding a nice detail from the Annals SM-EX-06: this reason for the Valar not going to war is only given in AAm, so I add it in here. SM-EX-07: extra descriptors from AAm SM-EX-08: adding from AAm about Tilion SM-EX-09: adding from AAm about Arien SM-EX-10: adding a detail from AAm SM-EX-11: Adding in the story of Melkor's assault on Tilion, which is found nowhere else. SM-14: This is the only detail of the QS account that is not in AAm SM-EX-12: These sections of the Hiding of Valinor are not mentioned again, but nothing is said to contradict them either. If we deem them to be unfit for inclusion I understand, but I figured I would add them in. This Chapter was much more difficult than the last two, but I think I have gathered all the relevant passages into the text. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 09-02-2017 at 09:19 PM. |
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09-03-2017, 07:04 AM | #2 |
King's Writer
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I appritiate your work and wante to know you that I have read it, so not yet analysed in detail.
Only oe remarke at once about your editing to be usefully for the next draft: When you skip paragraphs or passages, it would be much easier if you would still give here a few words at the start and the end of the skiped passage. Respectfully Findegil |
09-04-2017, 04:22 PM | #3 |
Quentingolmo
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I gave the first words of every paragraph, but I apologize for neglecting to include the last.
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09-23-2017, 04:31 PM | #4 | ||||||||||||||
King's Writer
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Okay, lets try to give some feedback on this chapter. I agree that this chapter is more difficult than many others. For some time I thought about skipping all that was done and start all over again with AAm as basis text. I have reinstalled all the changes that we had to do from QS too LQ without editing marker. I will not discuss these, but in my point of view we have to document these. But their all enough other additions I had propose. Now to the changes in detail. To all changes which I don’t comment on (there are a few left, even so it is nearly beyond belief seeing then length of this post), I agree:
SM-01: The change you propose is very radical. I would try to hold more of the text and just adapt it to the later storyline: Quote:
SM-01.6: Why did you stop there? The saying of the Elves and Men about the burning of boats cold also be taken: Quote:
SM-01.7, SM-02.1 to SM-02.7; SM-03.5; SM-04.1 and SM-05.1: Cullulin and Silindrin must be dry, otherwise Yavanna would not need the Silmarills to rekindle the trees. And with that also the useless ‘watering’ of the trees and so forth. Quote:
SM-03: The ‘Magic Sun’ does not go. I think we should change that to ‘Enchanted Sun’. SM-05.3: Melkor attacked at least Tilion. So this must go. SM-05.4 & SM-05.5: I would not specify gold or silver. ‘‘Lo, O Tuivána, and ye beside of the {Vali}[Valar?/Maiar?] and of the Elves, …‘: I think it is ‘people of the Valar’ here that covers the old meaning best. SM-EX-03.5: This was only marked by moved from later: which in my opinion is not that clear. Quote:
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SM-EX-04.5: In the draft this change was not marked. SM-EX-04.6: Same here. A source that was not used in the original draft is Myths Transformed. But I think there are passages that should be used: Quote:
SM-EX-07.5: Here begins the Addition from MT. We used already the gift of Eru to Varda. Therefore it should be included here as well. SM-EX-10.2 to SM-EX-10.97:As said at the start of this post, I think that AAm would probably have been the better basis text. Therefore now follow some changes that bring the text of LQ nearer to AAm: Quote:
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SM-EX-11.15: This ‘explanations’ for desserts and cold times, must go. They clearly belong to a round earth version. SM-EX-11.2: We have used the references to the ‘magic sun’ already, so here with Árië gone we have the reason why the sun has lost the ‘magic’. SM-EX-11.25: Árië seems to have been a hot girl! Already in LT she had tow guys loving here (with out hope). SM-EX-11.3, SM-EX-11.32, SM-EX-11.34 and SM-EX-11.36: The Assult on Tilion is here combined from MT and AAm. The change back to the basis text brings in here the loss of Árië and Tilion from Sun and Moon as additional reason for the lesser light in Valinor. SM-EX-11.37: Again a case were I bring the text nearer to AAm. SM-EX-11.38: His has to come later. SM-EX-11.4: That Morogth feared the light of the sun after the encounter with Árië is told in MT and here in AAm the reasons are given. SM-EX-11.42, SM-EX-11.44 and SM-EX-11.46: After the encounter with Árië Morgoth and his servants have to fear the Sun (Âs) and not Arien. SM-EX-11.5: We had inserted this earlier when Melkor destroyed the Lamps but here it fits much better. SM-EX-11.6 & SM-EX-11.7: The time that Tilion left the Moon is much short then it was planed in MT, but that does fit our flat earth version very well, since LQ and AAm say that ‘Tilion was the victor: as he ever yet hath been’. SM-EX-11.8: Back to AAm, but since that is not our basis text I added this marker. SM-EX-11.85: I added the assault on Árië because it had even the greater effect. Quote:
Puh, that was a long analyses and a long post. But as we both have found, this seems to be a more difficult chapter then it seems at first glance. Respecfully Findegil |
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09-25-2017, 01:14 PM | #5 |
Quentingolmo
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Any changes that I do not respond to are ones to which I agree.
SM-01.7, SM-02.1 to SM-02.7; SM-03.5; SM-04.1 and SM-05.1: I agree with you that these must go, but then a new problem arises: why are Kullulin and Silindrin empty? Ungoliant is never said to have drained them, and they are included in earlier chapters. Therefore they must be removed entirely (which I am loath to do) or we must insert an editorial passage (perhaps a significant one) into the Darkening of Valinor chapter in which she drains them. SM-EX-07.5<MT; 2: Saying the Sun was meant to be the heart of Arda refers to Arda as the Solar System, and is explicitly round earth, and is denied later on when it is said that the sun is drawn under the earth by the servants of Ulmo. This passage could perhaps be used in the Ambarkanta in Volume III, when describing the Cataclysm and the World Made Round. SM-EX-10.8: Arien > Árië missed. SM-EX-10.9: Why the change? in every diagram and description, the Chasm was between the land and the Outer Sea, and even Christopher Tolkien remarks about the confusion of the placement of the Outer Sea. The only clear layout we are given has the chasm btween the land and the sea, and so I would say we keep the original wording. SM-EX-11.1: Should this be used? this idea of an assault on the Sun is from the earliest iteration of the mythology, and was abandoned in all subsequent versions, only in one being replaced with an assault on the moon. Then in the radical round earth version, it is returned, along with an attack on the moon. Even if it is the latest text on the matter, it is sourced from a radical change which we have rejected, and thus I wonder if it is to be kept. In addition, it is said that Morgoth does not leave Angband except to corrupt men and to fight Fingolfin. If, however, it is kept, here are my comments. SM-EX-11.2: "- because of the death of {Urwendi}[Árië]." the word "death" here should be changed to "departure". SM-EX-11.25: Eonwe cannot be said to kill Morgoth, as it is said in our version of the Prophecy of Mandos that he only stands with Turin, but that Turin kills him. perhaps it can be changed to: "In the end he will {kill}[stand against] {Melko}[Morgoth].>" SM-EX-11.3: Morgoth cannot gather spirits out of the Void, bc he does not leave Angband as i said above. Maybe stick with the AAm wording. SM-EX-11.34: The insert from AAm should be placed after the conclusion of the MT sentence. The current arrangement is not good grammar. SM-EX-11.4: after "dared not come nigh her" I would add "again". SM-EX-11.7: The whole attack on Tilion being changed feels odd with this transition. Being chased out of the Moon would not make you the victor, even if you returned. I would stick with the AAm version rather than the MT version. Everything else I agree with. This is certainly a very difficult chapter, but after this and DoV are done, I think the stickiest ones are behind us. Most of the Beleriand chapters are very straightforward, and need only minor changes. |
09-26-2017, 01:49 PM | #6 | ||
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Kullulin and Silindrin: I agree that we have to do something about these in DoV, with the effect that Ungoliant has drained these sources of light. Since DoV anyhow needs an revision, we could simply keep that in mind, and care for it later. But here is my first go at it:
Quote:
SM-EX-10.9: Well AAm is the later text, that was my reason to use it. But I can see your reason and agree to restore the reading of LQ on the basis that this might be a proposed change that we cannot incoperate because we lake the needed information. SM-EX-11.1: For me the fact that this attack on the Sun does reappear in such a late version, is rather an argument to include it. Tolkien never abandoned the idea that the sun was less ‘enchanted’ then the Moon and therefore times of moonshine were rather the times for the Elves than the day of full sunshine. In the intermediate interations of the mythology Tolkien brings up some rather week arguments why this should be the case. Thus the re-established attack on and subsequent absent of Árië comes in handy. About Morogth it is told that he leaves Angband only once; we are neither told for what reason nor for how long. The rest is read into the passage implicit, by our knowledge of the story about Men’s corruption. Anyhow I would think that both corruption of Men and the ravishing Árië were connected in time. And we learn in the ‘Tale of Adanel’ that Morogth was not all the time present at the dwelling place of Men. So he could have the opportunity. (By the way, the fight of Fingolfin against Morgoth is directly before the gate of Angband. Since Fingolfin hammered on that door. I would assume from the latest description of the Nirnaeth that Angabnd had a kind of outwork and that the fight happen inside that outer fortification and with that could be said inside Angband, so that for this occasion Morgoth literary had not to leave Angband.) SM-EX-11.2: For a (forced) departure from Eä the word ‘death’ is very appropriate as we learn in MT when it speaks about the execution of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. SM-EX-11.25: Well, if this could only refer to the Last Battle I would agree that it contradicts the Second prophesy, but it could in this case refer to the time after the War of Wrath and Morgoth execution as it is told in MT, were no executioner is explicitly named. SM-EX-11.3: Even without leaving Angband he could gather spirits out of the void. As we are told in Ósanwe-kenta communication of thought is not restricted by space. And we can be sure that early allies of Melkor lingering in the void would still listen to his call. SM-EX-11.34: I agree that the grammar is not good. But either the insert from AAm has to go here or we would leave it out. If placed later, it is rendered seens less being out of sequence. What about this: Quote:
SM-EX-11.7: A lost battle does make you the loser of a war. In the end Tilion was victorious capturing back the Moon and prevailing in the farther defence of it. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-26-2017, 05:35 PM | #7 |
Quentingolmo
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SM-EX-11.1: I agree on this now. Part of my reason for arguing against it is bc i was attached to the published and longstanding myth i suppose.
SM-EX-11.2, 11.25: I think that in these cases, we must be careful using the word "death" about the Valar and Maiar. There is a point made that the Valar do not kill Melkor because he cannot be killed, being divine and immortal. therefore, to refer to the death of Arie in the text without any attention being brought to it seems to be to be entirely inccorect. Similarly, Melkor was not killed after the War of Wrath, he was thrust into the Voids of Ea, as we have in our version of the Tale of Earendil. SM-EX-11.3, 11.34: I agree, but it is "Maia" not "Maiar" when used in the singular. SM-EX-11.4: I added it in with consideration of the added bit about the attack on Arie, but if you feel it is simply stylistic, then I understand. SM-EX-11.7: the way it is written he simply comes back, there is no "recapturing the moon." The two accounts do not reconcile well. In addition, there is in this version no pursuing darkness, yes? |
09-27-2017, 11:31 AM | #8 | |
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SM-EX-11.2 & SM-EX-11.25: Okay, we change this as you suggested to:
Quote:
SM-EX-11.7: No, I did not remove ‘though still the pursuing darkness overtakes him at whiles‘. Therefore in the text a fight to recapture the Moon is implicit in the text. Okay we are dealing with an outline. Therefore it would be possible to make this for the sake of clarity a bit more explicit. But do you think that is necessary? Respectfully Findegil |
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09-27-2017, 05:11 PM | #9 |
Quentingolmo
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SM-EX-11.7: I would think it is, as the recapturing is not implied (it seems to me) and instead feels like two very different accounts being mushed together. I know we do not change for reasons of style, but in this case the attempted narrative is not clear (at least when I read it).
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09-28-2017, 05:19 PM | #10 | |
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SM-EX-11.7: Okay, how do you find this:
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Findegil |
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09-28-2017, 07:54 PM | #11 |
Quentingolmo
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This is perfect.
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10-05-2017, 06:10 PM | #12 | ||
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A few additions froum LT found while working on my draft for The Flight of the Noldor:
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Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 10-06-2017 at 02:10 PM. |
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10-05-2017, 06:57 PM | #13 |
Quentingolmo
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I actually do not agree with the messengers from the Teleri and from Mandos. In the FoN chapter, Manwe sends heralds to Feanor before he departs, and at this point even the Doom of the Noldor has been spoke. Thus, the Valar already knew that the Noldor had departed, but not that they had come into Middle-earth. This is why I only added the Sorontar bit. In addition, I disagree with the bits about the Noldor being absorbed into other kindreds. It is contradicted in the Hiding of Valinor bit where it says that the remainder of the Noldor held the pass of the Calacirya, and in the War of Wrath when it says the Noldor of Valinor marched under the banner of Finarfin. The other bits about Ulmo and Aule are good, however.
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 10-05-2017 at 07:19 PM. |
10-06-2017, 02:08 PM | #14 | ||
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ArcusCalion worte:
Quote:
As the chapter stands, it always was a jump back in time and to a diffrent place of 'action'. So the next message to reach the Valar is the kinslaying. And then the messenger from Mandos. ArcusCalion worte: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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10-06-2017, 05:11 PM | #15 |
Quentingolmo
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I see I was wrong about the first, but the second set of messengers is still problematic, as there is no mention made of the giving of the Doom of Mandos.S Should we just accept that as a problem with the time-jump? In addition, if we accept the second, then we must change all further references of the Noldor in Valinor to "Aulenosse." Also, where would Finarfin's group fit under this?
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