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#41 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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I'm not sure we can say that 'pack horses' wouldn't have made good mounts. By the time of the Somme the British army was taking any horses it could get, so its not too far fetched to imagine a trained hunter ending up as a pack horse.
Plus, Cavalry was very much present on the Somme (at least on the British side). Haig intended to use it. Quote:
Which proves nothing at all beyond the possibility that the event could have happened. |
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#42 |
Corpus Cacophonous
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What puzzles me is how any soldier could have found themselves behind enemy lines on the Western Front, save as a result of becoming lost in the confusion of an assault or (in the later stages of the war) as a pilot shot down. Neither situation would have involved being on horseback.
The whole affair was one big stalemate for most of the war with neither side being able to break through the enemy lines and only occasional and modest territorial gains.
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#43 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Quote:
As to my last post: I know I'm going to get picked up on this, because Squatter was speaking specifically about Infantry units, not Cavalry. The point is though, there was not a specific breed of horse which could be classified as 'pack horses' & a Hunter was possibly available to Tolkien. The fact that Haig intended to use cavalry & that so many of horses were killed means that conditions, though bad, were not so atrocious that horses could not be used. All I'm saying is, while it was most likely a dream, as Squatter says, it could have happened |
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#44 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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Does anybody know how the Germans were securing their rearward areas at this point in the war?
I don't know (and unfortunately, don't have time to try and look it up now) but it seems like mounted patrols might not be entirely out of the question.
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#45 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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There's an interesting line in The Tolkien Family Album By Priscilla & John Tolkien, following on from the one I gave earlier:
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Again, not a shred of proof that the incident described actually happened, but enough to make it a possibility at least. |
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#46 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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You know, davem, despite all of the scholarly evidence presented herein, and even as I express my horsemasterly doubts amongst the shreds of possible supporting evidence, what keeps bubbling to the surface of my brain seems to be, "yeah, but wouldn't it be cool if it WAS true."
If I stop & think about it as a writer, for a moment, then what I ask myself is "I wonder if I have any dreams of my own that could turn into mind-blowing chase scenes." Dependant upon calling, perhaps. ![]() And it's the phrase "big-boned hunter" that makes it vivid.
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#47 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Whatever, we shouldn't let the truth get in the way of a good story. |
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#48 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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More reflections on horses in the war.....
I once read that an astounding two and a half million horses were treated in vet clinics for injuries sustained from the war; about a half million of these died. These figures may or may not be precisely accurate but they certainly suggest that the animals were fairly widespread at the front. (Figures are for all injuries and deaths, not just the British.) There were a handful of cavalry charges as late as 1918, despite the fact that these were virtual suicide. Tolkien, however, was unlikely to be involved with those. Most of the horses were used for transporting materials to the trenches. In that day and time, horses and mules were more reliable than lorries that were prone to breakdowns. Here is a description of one war horse: Quote:
Here is a photo of horses being loaded onto the boats and sent to the front: here. Anyone see that big boned hunter? Maybe a dream, maybe real....who can really say?
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 07-06-2006 at 04:44 PM. |
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#49 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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While I appreciate the romantic appeal of wanting to believe the tale true, and while the possibility that it did happen cannot entirely be dismissed, the weight of evidence points to it being extremely unlikely. Given the conditions in the trenches and the effect of such conditions on the men serving at the front, however, it is not at all unlikely that such a dream would come to seem real to Tolkien, perhaps even to the extent that he later genuinely believed it to have happened.
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#50 |
Dread Horseman
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
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davem, out of curiosity, is there some correspondence you had with the Friar that you didn't publish here? The email you posted from him doesn't clarify whether he intended dream or reality for his anecdote.
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#51 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Quote:
(BTW, his email address is not a secret - I found it just by Googling his name) Last edited by davem; 07-07-2006 at 04:27 AM. |
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#52 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Re: Dancing amid the Hemlocks.
Do we know when the 'Dancing' took place? Garth states it was in the Spring of 1917 (in the Encyclopedia article I linked to) but Richard C West in his essay 'Real World Myth in a Secondary World in the collection Tolkien the Medievalist, seems clear it took place in November 1917, & so questions whether it could have happened in exactly the way decribed - Roos is on the North Sea Coast & in November it would have been absolutely freezing. In a note to the essay West notes that he has recieved personal correspondence from Christina Scull to the effect that at that time of year there would not have been any flowers in bloom, & 'the weather would not have been conducive to dancing', & he therefore puts the whole thing down to Tolkien conflating a number of different incidents. West is drawing his date of November 1917 from Carpenter's biography (which is not too clear on the chronology of events). What we have to say is that if the event is supposed to have taken place in November 1917 it didn't happen exactly as Tolkien says it did (no flowers & Edith dancing in an overcoat!) Carpenter states the event took place after the birth of John in Nov 1917, while Garth in the article states it was in spring of 1917. |
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#53 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Tolkien's cavalry chase
Again, no proof of anything here but a "denial of disproof": it appears that Totenkopf or skull-and-crossbones badges were worn by the Prussian 1st and 2nd Life Hussar regiments, which were attached to the Prussian Guard- and If I've read John Garth's book correctly, the Prussian Guard was the corps Tolkien's division faced on the Somme. As already posted, all German cavalry were issued lances, and it was a common Allied mistake to therefore call them all "Uhlans."
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#54 |
Spectre of Decay
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To be honest I've been thinking that a lot of my comments about that were rubbish for some time. Basically I misread the original post as simply a dream rather than a nightmare brought on by actual events. There's no particular reason why Tolkien would have made up a wartime adventure, and it's no more unlikely than a lot of other things that happened on the Western Front. Thanks for the information about German cavalry insignia: of course skulls and crossbones are popular motifs in military badges, and it was always unlikely that British lancers were the only ones to adopt them.
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#55 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Seems more or less a good place to drop in this nugget of info, though it relates to WWII and Tolkien...
There's a book out by Adrian Gilbert (POW: Allied Prisoners in Europe) which includes a look at those Allied PoWs held in German and Italian camps who were fortunate enough to be kept occupied with educational opportunities - one of which was to take a Literature exam which was set by Tolkien, Lewis and Leonard Rice-Oxley. In the new Companion & Guide there's an entry thus: Quote:
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#56 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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#57 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Makes you think
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#58 |
A Mere Boggart
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What an interesting find! We were so lucky that fate didn't have it in for Tolkien - we would never have known his name let alone anything else - and all that this entails such as no Downs, no friendships forged on Tolkien - I would not know davem, or any of you...that is a very sobering thought. How fates decades down the line can rest on something like that...
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#59 |
A Mere Boggart
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I was looking up some history of the 55th West Lancashire Division during WWI (more here if interested: http://www.1914-1918.net/55div.htm ) and I was drawn onto other paths as you do online.
I found myself at the website of the Lancashire Fusiliers' Museum: http://www.fusiliersmuseum-lancashir...tory_hall.html On their Hall of Fame page you'll find some bits about Tolkien and GB Smith. Interestingly, they are keen to include in their collection any items linking to either of the two men. Obviously such items would be a considerable attraction for a small museum (and one which is seeking to move to better premises) so if anyone knows of any Tolkien/Smith/WWI artefacts that might be loaned or even donated please get in touch with them! And also of interest, here is a website run by former servicemen of the Lancashire Fusilers, and the link to the hall of fame (and infamy, as it includes a scary serial killer!) http://www.lancs-fusiliers.co.uk/FamousinfamousLFs.htm It's interesting to wonder who might have been a comrade of Tolkien's, looking at those who were his contemporaries - including one dearly loved and missed British Icon, Jack Howarth AKA Albert Tatlock from Coronation Street!
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#60 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
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My great-grandfather was at the Somme in the Black Watch. He got shot up so badly they thought he was dead. They actually wrote his name in a book of the fallen but he survived though he limped for the rest of his life. It's hard to imagine nowadays, the crap that the lads on the Western Front had to put up with. Puts it all in perspective.
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#61 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Another aspect of the horrors of war - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...#StartComments
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"I have a wife and kid." he told them. "All the more reason to enlist." one replied.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 09-16-2007 at 01:23 AM. |
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#62 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Not the Somme, but
A new TV movie about the loss of Rudyard Kipling's son in WWI. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1766&ito=1490
I was particularly struck by the poem Kipling wrote after Jack died. Anyone else reminded of the lament for Boromir? 'My Boy Jack' (1916) 'Have you news of my boy Jack?' Not this tide. 'When d'you think that he'll come back?' Not with this wind blowing, and this tide. 'Has any one else had word of him?' Not this tide. For what is sunk will hardly swim, Not with this wind blowing, and this tide. 'Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?' None this tide, Nor any tide, Except he did not shame his kind - Not even with that wind blowing, and that tide. Then hold your head up all the more, This tide, And every tide; Because he was the son you bore, And gave to that wind blowing and that tide! |
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#63 |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Interesting piece from Martin Gilbert about Tolkien & the Somme http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/in...&pagename=Arts
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#64 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I came across this thread during a rummage through some disused corridors of the forum.
My inner historian compels me to point out that we are now at the 100 year anniversary of the Battle of the Somme. /removes hat
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#65 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks for unearthing this thread, Kuruharan, sadly relevant for the reason you gave.
Tolkien's old school, King Edward's in Birmingham, have produced 2 documentaries: One on Tolkien himself, another on his friend and fellow T.C.B.S. member Robert Gilson, who did not survive the War: http://www.tolkiensociety.org/2016/0...-of-the-somme/ |
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