Unfinished Tales - Part One - I - Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Welcome to our chapter-by-chapter discussion of the Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth! This is, like the Silmarillion, a book of Tolkien's writings that was edited by his son Christopher and published post-humously. It contains exactly what the title says, stories that Tolkien began writing and never finished.

I find the style is more like Tolkien's in the LotR than the Silmarillion is. Perhaps it's because the tales come primarily from a Mannish point-of-view rather than from the Elvish. In the first story we read a more detailed account of Tuor, the human who made his way to the Hidden Kingdom of the Elves and fulfilled an important fate there.

I will come back later with my personal impressions of this story but would like to open the discussion for everyone now. I look forward to reading your thoughts! Whether you take this discussion as an occasion to (re-)read the book or whether you post from memory, your contributions are all welcome.

[Formendacil]

It's funny that you start by mentioning how the tales, in general, feel more like the LotR than the Silm, because the first thing I noticed in rereading "Of Tuor" was just how much it reminded me of the LotR. It had been a few years since I'd actually sat down to read UT, for which reason I'm quite excited about this new CbC series, since it gives me a golden opportunity to read each tale for itself, rather than just mining it for quotes.

I think it's hugely important to note that "Of Tuor" is a post-LotR piece, because I felt, at least, that Tolkien's style here was far more reminiscent of Frodo in Mordor or Pippin in Gondor than it was of the compressed Silmarillion version. And, after all, the Silmarillion proper is mostly a pre-LotR composition, albeit much added to and edited post-LotR, whereas Tuor is a fresh writing, even if the Book of Lost Tales manuscript was right in front of Tolkien.

There are two elements, in particular, that reminded me of the LotR. The first was the character of the landscape, and the detail that Tolkien gives to it. Far more than any text in the Quenta Silmarillion, "Of Tuor" gives a vivid impression of Mithrim, the Ered Lomin, Nevrast, Faelivrin, the Vale of Sirion, and the Echoriath. The visualisation of these was as fully illustrated as any in the LotR, of which it is said that 'the landscape is one of the characters.' That is patently true here too.

The second really close point of convergence for me was the sense of ancient that pervades Tuor's world. In the Silm, we don't really get a sense of how long the Noldor have lived in Middle-earth, because we see everything from their perspective, and we rush over the centuries of their rule quickly. By getting to see things from Tuor's Mannish perspective here, we're able to get those sort glimpses into a rich past that made the LotR so compelling: where the LotR has places like Moria and the Argonath and Helm's Deep, "Of Tuor" has the Gate of the Noldor and Vinyamar--and the entrance into Gondolin (which reminded me of nothing so much as Pippin's arrival in Minas Tirith with Gandalf).

And, speaking of Gandalf, "Of Tuor" gives us the most "intimate" experience of a Valar in any piece of Tolkien's writing. Granted, we get a lot of the Valar in the Silmarillion, and they are almost given in more detail than the Elves, but there is still a remoteness in the Silm narrative that is not so present in "Of Tuor." Certainly, since the first time I read it, this has been the definitive account of Ulmo for me, and his lines here probably among my favourite pieces of dialogue in Tolkien's work.

And, from Ulmo, we get the Sea. Tuor's encounter with Belegaer (said to be the first of any Man) and his months dwelling along the coast, together with Voronwë's tale, is the most compelling account of Sea-longing and the mystery of the Sea in all of Tolkien's later (post-Book of Lost Tales) work--far more direct and immediately felt than Legolas's retold account in the RotK.

To conclude, there is no tale in UT that I find more compelling, and no tale Tolkien left unfinished that I wish he had finished more.

[Boromir88]

I had used the UT as just a reference to cherry pick extra information or quotes from and fill in the gaps of The Silm and LOTR. But at the urging of one, Mr. Formendacil, when discussing the upcome CbC thread, I decided to go ahead and read this chapter. I feel kind of ashamed now, because it's such a beautiful story and I had gone all these years missing it. I would add more, but it would just get repetitive as I second the "this feels more like reading LOTR than The Silm."

And I can't seem to find a smaller part that stuck out to me. I believe it was Voronwe who commented how the courage of Men, who's fate is to die, would spend their limitted years risking death and fighting Morgoth. It's a pondering question in the difference between Elves and Men.

Men don't view their mortality as a gift, and in this regard they can be reckless with their lives. But it also speaks of their courage to spend their limitted life in defense of the Elves fight against Morgoth. Elves on the other hand, not being able to die from age, are doomed to remember the pains and losses of their world.

[Mister Underhill]

It has been a long, long time since I read the Tales just for the sake of the stories themselves. Thanks, Esty, for getting me to pick up my old copy for sheer pleasure rather than as a resource for some debate or other.

The first thing that strikes me with "Tuor" is the post-apocalyptic feel of Hithlum -- Men and Elves taken as slaves and otherwise abused, evil Men running the show, orcs roaming to and fro at will, and the remnants of good folk relegated to secret and isolated communities.

In LotR the Free Peoples are, well, free, and though the Shadow hangs over them, the West maintains several strongholds of civilization and simple goodness. Here in "Tuor", the vibe is more "Middle-earth-punk" than what we're used to from LotR, and I can't think of any tale in the Silmarillion that evokes quite the same dystopian tone.

Another thing that strikes me is that Aragorn, in his "Strider" persona, carries on a bit of the "outlaw" tradition from this and other First Age tales.

Anyway, a few scattered thoughts, such as they are. More later, perhaps.

[Boromir88]

Going back to this quickly:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And I can't seem to find a smaller part that stuck out to me. I believe it was Voronwe who commented how the courage of Men, who's fate is to die, would spend their limitted years risking death and fighting Morgoth. It's a pondering question in the difference between Elves and Men.

I realized why I couldn't find it, because I was looking at the wrong person. It's actually Ulmo who says how the Eldar will always remember the courage of the Edain:

"For the valour of the Edain the elves shall ever remember remember as the ages lengthen, marvelling that they gave life so freely of which they had on earth so little."~Of Tuor

Mr. Underhill's post reminded me what I thought through most of the chapter, which actually reminded me of one of your old threads, Esty.

Not all those who wander are lost.

Here in this post-apocalyptic Hithlum, Tuor is an outlaw. He is a thrall in the very place that should be The House of Hador's. He's forced out of Hithlum and the tale is all of Tuor's wanderings. However, it's wandering with a purpose, a purpose forseen from the outset. We don't know why, and Tuor doesn't even seem to be able to explain it, but he is drawn to Gondolin. He feels spiritted by hearing Turgon's name and seeking out the Hidden City. Reaching Gondolin, the place that Tuor is continually told no Man would ever be permitted entrance to. It gives his wandering a purpose, otherwise he'd probably spent more of his days hiding in Androth.

The last thing, I don't know what you call it, but it struck me as one of those wise Elven sayings, Tolkien loved creating, from Gelmir:

"Through darkness one may come to the light."

Nothing I can think of that would add any meaning or significance to Gelmir's words to Tuor. I just thought it interesting and sage Elven advice.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Just one brief comment from the beginning of this story:

What is it with Tolkien's wives and mothers?! Here we have yet another who effectively abandons her child (yes, she provided for fostering, but that's not the same as having an actual mother). Rather than staying with Tuor, Rían leaves him with the Elves and dies. Is life as a wife more important than life as a mother? Does her life end with that of her husband? This is an attitude I don't understand.

That is echoed in Arwen's death after Aragorn died, and I'm trying to remember another example that doesn't occur to me right now.

[mark12_30]

It stirred the magic again.

Wandering through the forgotten city... incredible.

[Guinevere]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Just one brief comment from the beginning of this story:

What is it with Tolkien's wives and mothers?! Here we have yet another who effectively abandons her child (yes, she provided for fostering, but that's not the same as having an actual mother). Rather than staying with Tuor, Rían leaves him with the Elves and dies. Is life as a wife more important than life as a mother? Does her life end with that of her husband? This is an attitude I don't understand.

That is echoed in Arwen's death after Aragorn died, and I'm trying to remember another example that doesn't occur to me right now.

Ha, that's exactly what I was thinking, when I read the beginning of the story!!
(Miriel also left her newborn son Fëanor, but just from overwhelming weariness (aka postnatal depression) so it's not quite the same.)

The beginning tells us only very briefly about Tuor's youth with the Grey-elves, his captivity under the Easterlings (I had hardly rememberd this; but was delighted with the detail of the pursuing dogs being devoted to Tuor; I can imagine he was the only one that was kind to them! ) and his time as an outlaw. But the tale becomes much more detailed from the start of his journey to the Sea.

I agree very much with all that Formendacil has written! The detailed description of the landscape also struck me, and reminded me of LotR. (I now traced Tuor's wanderings on the Atlas of MiddleEarth)
The Silmarillion was rather hard to read, but UT is a splendid complement, and much easier to read. We get to know the protagonists much closer here, and can feel with them.

Personally, I have a special liking for Voronwë. His tale of how he tarried on the way and his description of his delight in Nan-tathren is hauntingly beautiful and his account of the sea voyage is very touching and tragic. There is hardly any other elf who reveals so much about himself, is there? I also like how close companions and friends Tuor and Voronwë become, and the way Tuor sometimes takes the initiative.
The detailed description of the Orfalch Echor and all its gates sounds again more like in a fairytale.
And indeed it is very frustrating when the story comes to an abrupt stop!

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

What is it with Tolkien's wives and mothers?! Here we have yet another who effectively abandons her child (yes, she provided for fostering, but that's not the same as having an actual mother). Rather than staying with Tuor, Rían leaves him with the Elves and dies. Is life as a wife more important than life as a mother? Does her life end with that of her husband? This is an attitude I don't understand.

What do you expect from an author whose own mother died when he was twelve?

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I agree very much with all that Formendacil has written! The detailed description of the landscape also struck me, and reminded me of LotR. (I now traced Tuor's wanderings on the Atlas of MiddleEarth)

Yes! Voronwë's line Ered en Echoriath, ered e·mbar nín! alone is like one of those gestures by which Japanese No actors conjure up an entire landscape on an empty stage.

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Personally, I have a special liking for Voronwë. His tale of how he tarried on the way and his description of his delight in Nan-tathren is hauntingly beautiful and his account of the sea voyage is very touching and tragic. There is hardly any other elf who reveals so much about himself, is there? I also like how close companions and friends Tuor and Voronwë become, and the way Tuor sometimes takes the initiative.

I concur. Running with the comparison/juxtaposition of Tuor and Turin, Voronwë is Tuor's Beleg - an elf who risked everything for the sake of his friendship with a mortal; and unlike his counterpart in the other tale, his friendship and trust was vindicated and rewarded. (Didn't he, back in the old BoLT, survive to sire the same Ilfiniol son of Bronweg who told some of the Tales to Eriol?)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

What do you expect from an author whose own mother died when he was twelve?

This occurred to me too... but I'm hesitant about how to read it. After all, Tolkien's mother left his father in South Africa to bring the boys to England, and Arthur Tolkien died there. His own mother, in contrast to Rían, devoted herself to raising her sons (though the parallel of doing so without the support of the broader family is there), and although she died early, it was not out of anything that we would normally construe as grief for her husband.

That being said, though... I think Tuor as a parallel for Tolkien is a valid possibility, intentional parallels aside. Certainly, he "reads" to me like a Tolkien-persona more than many characters, and "feels" like Faramir (the one character Tolkien mentioned as identifying with) and ends up with the same fate as Beren (whose name Tolkien had placed on his tombstone): marrying an Elf-lady. Tuor's story is even happier than Beren's, though--or seems to be, in its final version. Unfortunately, the Tale of Eärendil was never written and the Tale of Gondolin was never retold in full after the BoLT era... as reconstructed in the Silm, it seems quite possible that Tuor's immortality with Idril (as the counter-fate to Lúthien sharing Beren's fate) bodes a happy ending for them, individually, though it came through the wrack of Gondolin, but the HoME-recorded jottings surrounding their fate in the midst of the Tale of Eärendil are not always so certain...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I concur. Running with the comparison/juxtaposition of Tuor and Turin, Voronwë is Tuor's Beleg - an elf who risked everything for the sake of his friendship with a mortal; and unlike his counterpart in the other tale, his friendship and trust was vindicated and rewarded. (Didn't he, back in the old BoLT, survive to sire the same Ilfiniol son of Bronweg who told some of the Tales to Eriol?)

One and the same--and Voronwë's survival through the fall of Gondolin to become one of Eärendil's companions seems , at least to me--I have no textual evidence on hand to cite--like a strand that was never lost, even if any mention of Ilfiniol was necessarily lost with the loss of the Cottage of Lost Play.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Running with the comparison/juxtaposition of Tuor and Turin, Voronwë is Tuor's Beleg - an elf who risked everything for the sake of his friendship with a mortal; and unlike his counterpart in the other tale, his friendship and trust was vindicated and rewarded.

I don't know that I agree with the comparison between Voronwë and Beleg.

The latter became Túrin's friend naturally, through an association of many years.

On the other hand, Voronwë really wasn't a friend at all. He was placed in Tuor's path by Ulmo, and intended as a guide for Tuor to Gondolin. It wasn't until Voronwë heard Ulmo's words through Tuor's mouth:

"Will Turgon forget that which [Ulmo] spoke to him of old: Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea? Or again: When peril is nigh one shall come from Nevrast to warn thee"?

Before Tuor said that, Voronwë had at first refused to lead Tuor to Gondolin.

So, I think Voronwë was less a friend to Tuor, and more a wise Elf recognizing and accepting his own part in matters above his pay grade.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

(...) One and the same--and Voronwë's survival through the fall of Gondolin to become one of Eärendil's companions seems , at least to me--I have no textual evidence on hand to cite--like a strand that was never lost, even if any mention of Ilfiniol was necessarily lost with the loss of the Cottage of Lost Play.

Do you mean companion as in, sailed with Earendil? perhaps not, but anyway, interestingly, in an entry for The Tale of Years (War of the Jools) Tolkien jotted down 'and Voronwe?' as a possible ship companion for Tuor -- with Christopher Tolkien drawing a possible connection to a line from the updated Fall of Gondolin.

[Aiwendil]

This is one of my favorite pieces of writing by Tolkien. Part of that, I admit, may come from its place as the first piece in UT and hence, at least for me, the fact that it was my first exposure to any of his writings beyond The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and the published Silmarillion.

I had read those three works at quite a young age (actually, the first time through they were bed-time stories read to me by my mother), and Tolkien was already my favorite author. But, while I had picked up UT and the first few volumes of HoMe over the years, the (as it seemed to me at the time) copious editorial notes and strange, fragmentary nature of the stories was not what I was expecting, and I'm ashamed to say they sat, unread, on my bookshelf for a long time. It was not until high school when one morning, already late for the bus, I remembered there was standardized testing that day and I would need a book to fill the interminable intervals after finishing each section. More or less at random, I grabbed Unfinished Tales out of my bookcase.

I suppose I'd become more patient since first picking up the book years before, for I found Christopher Tolkien's introduction interesting rather than tedious. And then I started reading 'Tuor', and suddenly I was swept out of the little window-less classroom to the empty lands of Nevrast and the shores of Middle-earth. I was deeply enchanted, and I couldn't believe that for so many years this (and who knew what other treasures) had been sitting on my bookshelf unread. It's quite a thing to discover a new and unlooked-for gem by one's favorite author; it's another thing indeed to realize that this is just the beginning of thirteen volumes full of potential gems.

So it's hard for me to say whether the esteem in which I hold 'Tuor' is due to its own merits or to the unveiling of the vast and rich literary landscape that it was for me. But it hasn't occurred to me until now to wonder just why it is the first story in UT. After all, Tuor's story comes after Turin's, not before it, in the Silmarillion. I can only surmise that perhaps my reaction to 'Tuor' is not singular; perhaps Christopher Tolkien decided to place it in the first position precisely because it does such a good job of opening up that literary landscape. The 'Narn' is certainly a deeper story - at least than this fragment - and perhaps better, but I would venture to say that it is not as enchanting or beguiling. There's a certain lyricism in 'Tuor' that stands almost alone in Tolkien's writings; the closest things to it, as others have noted, would have to be certain passages of LotR. Perhaps that makes it the best 'hook' with which to open UT.

Originally Posted by Estelyn

What is it with Tolkien's wives and mothers?! Here we have yet another who effectively abandons her child (yes, she provided for fostering, but that's not the same as having an actual mother). Rather than staying with Tuor, Rían leaves him with the Elves and dies. Is life as a wife more important than life as a mother? Does her life end with that of her husband? This is an attitude I don't understand.

This is a good observation, and I largely agree with you. But I think that to fully consider Rian's fate we need to look again at the parallels and contrasts between Tuor's story and Turin's. Rian and Morwen are cousins, but are starkly contrasted in temperament. Morwen is a realist; she is stern but very strong, and though her grief after the Nirnaeth was surely terrible, she kept it under control and did what she thought best for her children, painful though sending Turin away to Doriath was for her. Rian seems to have been made for a gentler world. I would not quite say that her husband meant more to her than her son, nor that she ended her life because she considered herself his wife and nothing beyond that. Rather, I'd say that the grief of the Nirnaeth and the darkness of the days ahead was more than she could deal with without him. Killing herself was definitely the wrong thing to do, but it's a failure for which I don't think we should judge her too harshly.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't know that I agree with the comparison between Voronwë and Beleg.

The latter became Túrin's friend naturally, through an association of many years.

On the other hand, Voronwë really wasn't a friend at all. He was placed in Tuor's path by Ulmo, and intended as a guide for Tuor to Gondolin.

I have always seen Voronwe as the analogue of Gwindor - Gwindor guides Turin to Nargothrond and Voronwe guides Tuor to Gondolin. That parallel goes deeper - if you recall, Finrod and Turgon both had dreams sent to them by Ulmo urging them to found hidden cities, and Nargothrond and Gondolin were the respective results. It's also worth noting that in the Book of Lost Tales, Voronwe was an escaped thrall from Angband just as was Gwindor ('Flinding' in the Lost Tales). Indeed, I've always kind of suspected that Tolkien changed Voronwe's background to avoid making the analogy too blatantly obvious.

[Inziladun]

At this later date, I can't remember exactly when I first read UT. I don't think it could have been before the mid 90's, though, when my Tolkien interest went through a renaissance that ultimately led me here to the Downs.

I'm quite fond of this first story. To me, Tuor really is the anti-Túrin; humble and accepting of advice, yet valiant when put to it. He hears the call of Ulmo and goes to the Sea, where he receives a task he had not looked for. Like Frodo much later, he accepts the errand on faith, not knowing where it will lead him in the end, but realizing that such is his part to play. I admire that.

Also, the imagery here is superb. As has been mentioned, the visualization of the empty, yet enduring halls of Vinyamar is compelling. The sound of the waves, the sunlight streaming in, and the sense of wholesomeness mixed with intrigue: where had the Noldor there gone? Tuor would find out rather soon.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

I have always seen Voronwe as the analogue of Gwindor - Gwindor guides Turin to Nargothrond and Voronwe guides Tuor to Gondolin. That parallel goes deeper - if you recall, Finrod and Turgon both had dreams sent to them by Ulmo urging them to found hidden cities, and Nargothrond and Gondolin were the respective results. It's also worth noting that in the Book of Lost Tales, Voronwe was an escaped thrall from Angband just as was Gwindor ('Flinding' in the Lost Tales). Indeed, I've always kind of suspected that Tolkien changed Voronwe's background to avoid making the analogy too blatantly obvious.

Gwindor as a parallel to Voronwë works very well. I like Voronwë as is, better. As you say, with Gwindor we already have a picture of what happens to the prisoners of Angband. With Voronwë, we get the insight of an Elf trying against hope to return to the West, failing, and yet being saved to play his own part in a drama much greater than himself.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, the imagery here is superb. As has been mentioned, the visualization of the empty, yet enduring halls of Vinyamar is compelling. The sound of the waves, the sunlight streaming in, and the sense of wholesomeness mixed with intrigue: where had the Noldor there gone? Tuor would find out rather soon.

Speaking of imagery, not only in the physical landscape, but the imagery provided by the various types of birds stirs beautiful imagery. The great seagulls, the swans of the Teleri, and the Eagles circling, guarding the Sirion from Orcs. And I believe there is a great statue of Thorondor in Gondolin.

It reminded me of a statue I recently saw visiting Salem, MA outside a courthouse. Large golden eagle, wings spread, which made me wonder about symbolisms of eagles. Quite majestic, royal, the lions of the sky?

[Formendacil]

It's an interesting question you bring up, Aiwendil, regarding Christopher Tolkien's choice to place "Of Tuor" first in Unfinished Tales, over the Narn, and since this is a discussion of UT as a whole as much as UT's individual units, it's an interesting one to consider. Given Christopher Tolkien's rubric of putting the first three sections in chronological order, "Of Tuor" and the Narn are essentially interchangeable, because they cover a contemporary timeframe. True, the Narn starts a few years earlier, because Túrin is Tuor's elder, but it also brings the story a few years later--Tuor and Voronwë's chance encounter with Túrin leaves the entire final, and most finished, section of the Narn yet to come, starting with his return to Dor-Lómin.

Nonetheless, I don't think it was strict chronology that led Christopher Tolkien to place "Of Tuor" first. Aiwendil has already given an adequate account of why it might be a more hopeful first choice, and I'll merely add to that by saying it's a question of balance. If the Narn had gone first, it would have completely unbalanced UT as a whole. As the longest narrative in the book (and arguably the most complete, as shown by its ready transition to a little changed form in the stand-alone, commentary-free Children of Húrin), the Narn would have changed the book from Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth to The Narn i Hîn Húrin and Other Unfinished Tales.


Also, while we're reminiscing about when we first read UT, I'm trying to think when I did. I read both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings when I was 11 (or about 11... I'm not actually sure), and had my first attempt at the The Silmarillion shortly after, and was temporarily defeated... but not permanently defeated, because I think that after another reread or two of the LotR I read the Silm for a second time and then had the inertia to leap into UT. All these books were purloined from my dad's college-era bookshelves, and I vaguely remember that my post-Silm trepidation was much allayed by the references I could see to the more familiar world of Men and the Third Age, so I must have been no older than 12 or a very early thirteen, since I definitely read it a few times (if not several) before the movies came out a month or two before I turned 15. I'd tentatively date my first read, then, to 1998 sometime.

It's a fascinating study of my own chronology, even if it interests no one else.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I'm enjoying the posts here! Question: Would you like another week to discuss this chapter, or are you ready to move on to the next one?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I'm enjoying the posts here! Question: Would you like another week to discuss this chapter, or are you ready to move on to the next one?

I'm of the mind that there's no reason this thread must cease once the next begins... but insofar as I have not yet reread (or skimmed) the Narn in preparation... well... holding off wouldn't hurt me.

[Boromir88]

Esty, I have no preference, but curious, were you planning on breaking up the sections of the Children of Hurin?

[Guinevere]

I was wondering about that too. The Children of Hurin is much longer than an average chapter, and it will probably take me about a week to reread it.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I just checked the length of the next chapter - appr. 150 pages!!! We definitely won't cover that in a week, and breaking it up into sections is a good idea. I'll give us the rest of this week to finish here and start reading Túrin - at first glance, I'd say we go up to "Túrin in Doriath" in the first week.

We now return to our regularly scheduled discussion...

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Rather, I'd say that the grief of the Nirnaeth and the darkness of the days ahead was more than she deal with without him. Killing herself was definitely the wrong thing to do, but it's a failure for which I don't think we should judge her too harshly.

I wonder. The text only says that she went to the Hill of the Slain and died - not that she proactively killed herself. I've always read that along the line of your first statement that the grief was too great for her to endure. That she held herself together long enough to provide for Tuor's fostering and to travel to where her bones could rest with her husband's, and that was all her strength could manage.

An interesting contrast is the passing or Morwen. I think it is fair to say that Morwen had a different makeup from Rian. Morwen was more of a steel-nerved survivor who was centered on fighting and struggling against all comers for what she believed was right (or, at least, best for her family). And yet, even Morwen, reached the limit of her will to live at the end. When Hurin finally finds her and expresses that, even tho their children are dead, they are together again, Morwen can only say "I am spent, I shall go with the sun" - and she does.

To me that is eerily similar to what Rian was feeling (and may even have said to herself) as she laid her down on the Hill of the Slain to die.

[Galadriel55]

I just got a copy of UT from the library and started reading it (only a few pages in), and just couldn't resist making a note of an observation. Turin and Tuor are, actually, not that different in character, but different in approach:

"Then I will go and seek Turgon,"...

Also has a taste for doing the impossible.

But Tuor's heart was kindled with the fire of battle, and he would not flee...

Also quite proud / stubborn, and even a bit reckless.

But Tuor saw wisdom...

...and restrained himself from giving way to his indignation/anger/etc. Turin, on the other hand, never bothered with stopping himself - there's a difference in approach.

Nor was he willing to live thus for ever a wild man in the houseless hills, and his heart urged him ever to great deeds.

Once again, just like Turin he wants to act, now. However, he tells himself to calm down and reason through it before diving in rashly.


These are just some points on that old beaten-up topic. When I finish the chapter I'll look over the thread and maybe comment on some other things.

[Galadriel55]

Having read the story to the end, I can just add myself to the host of people saying that it sounds so LOTR and that I absolutely love it and feel a bit cheated when the story ends. I wanted to get a glimpse of Turgon "in person".

However, I must say that Tuor is one darn lucky guy. Half of the time he just "feels" something is right and follows, and it's his good fate that it really is something good. His way is shown for him. Ulmo even talks for him. It's not fair!!!

And toward the end of the story I had a weird image of Moses comming to the Pharaoh to get him to "let his people go". Though Tuor is not asking for a group of Elvesto leave, he really does seem a bit Moses-y.

PS: this chapter also helped explain some Downers' profiles *coughLegatecough*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I would like to comment on one aspect of this story that has not yet been mentioned - music! (Bet you're surprised... ) Since Ulmo is important in this narrative, and he is the Vala most associated with music, and his element of water is that within which the Music of creation lives on, this is hardly astonishing. However, it is Tuor who is the active musician here. He both sings and plays the harp - skilfully, it is said. The first time that his music-making is mentioned, it is instrumental (pun unintentional, but too nice to remove!) in leading him in the right direction.

And even as he sang the well at his feet began to boil with great increase of water, and it overflowed, and a rill ran noisily down the rocky hillside before him. And Tuor took this as a sign, and he arose at once and followed after it.

The next mention also takes him in the right direction; when he sings and plays in the Echoing Mountains, the gulls appear above him, again showing him the way to go.

Ulmo does play one single note on his horn later, and Tuor then sees a vision of the waters of the world.

I can't help but wonder if music plays a role in the positive fate of Tuor. I don't recall reading about Túrin singing or playing, at least nothing decisive. Could the music have kept Tuor more closely connected with the will of the Valar, specifically Ulmo?

The last mention of music in this chapter is the one that fascinates me most. Tuor approaches the seventh gate:

Elemmakil... struck upon a bar, and the fence rang like a harp of many strings, giving forth clear notes in harmony that ran from tower to tower.

I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who has hit fence bars with a stick to see how they sound, but this is something special! I would love to have heard it!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I can't help but wonder if music plays a role in the positive fate of Tuor. I don't recall reading about Túrin singing or playing, at least nothing decisive. Could the music have kept Tuor more closely connected with the will of the Valar, specifically Ulmo?

That's an interesting idea. In CoH/The Narn the only music that I remember is Hurin's attempt to make a lament for Lalaith and Turin's lament for Beleg. But neither is elaborated on. I'm not sure if you could count the horns of the host of Dor-lomin as music. But if you do, here's the crucial difference - Ulmo's horn vs horns of war. Each one inspires in its own direction.

However, as far as Tuor is concerned, one of the most important musical moments of his life story is probably when he sings to Earendil about the Sea in The Sil.

Originally Posted by Esty

I'm sure I'm not the only one of us who has hit fence bars with a stick to see how they sound, but this is something special! I would love to have heard it!

If every local fence made such sounds no one in the city would be able to sleep!

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I can't help but wonder if music plays a role in the positive fate of Tuor. I don't recall reading about Túrin singing or playing, at least nothing decisive. Could the music have kept Tuor more closely connected with the will of the Valar, specifically Ulmo?

That's an interesting observation, Esty.
I don't recall any mention of Túrin doing any singing or instrumental playing. Perhaps Tuor's affinity toward music merely signified from Ulmo's point of view an openness on the part of the former to listen to his heart, and not allow his physical surroundings and personal desires to rule all his actions. There is, I think, something special about singers and musicians IRL, and an argument could be made for Arda as well.

x/d with G55

[Aiwendil]

There is at least one instance of Turin making music that I can think of immediately: the Laer Cu Beleg, or Song of the Great Bow, that he sings for Beleg after his death. But I'd have to agree that one gets the impression that Tuor was the more musical of the two cousins.

However, as far as Tuor is concerned, one of the most important musical moments of his life story is probably when he sings to Earendil about the Sea in The Sil.

You may already be aware of this, but a version of this song was actually written by Tolkien and can be found in HoMe volume IV. It reflects a slightly older version of the story (the chief difference is that Ulmo appeared to Tuor in Nan Tathren rather than Nevrast), but it's quite a nice poem. I tried to set it to music once, but found it hard to get a handle on the formal structure of the song, since the poem consists of couplets without stanzaic divisions.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

There is at least one instance of Turin making music that I can think of immediately: the Laer Cu Beleg, or Song of the Great Bow, that he sings for Beleg after his death. But I'd have to agree that one gets the impression that Tuor was the more musical of the two cousins.

Ah, forgot about the lament for Beleg.
It's notable, though, that to Túrin music seems to be associated with negative emotions only, whereas Tuor naturally seems to turn to it for comfort and confidence.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

There is at least one instance of Turin making music that I can think of immediately: the Laer Cu Beleg, or Song of the Great Bow, that he sings for Beleg after his death.

That's the one I was talking about in my previous post.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

You may already be aware of this, but a version of this song was actually written by Tolkien and can be found in HoMe volume IV. It reflects a slightly older version of the story (the chief difference is that Ulmo appeared to Tuor in Nan Tathren rather than Nevrast), but it's quite a nice poem. I tried to set it to music once, but found it hard to get a handle on the formal structure of the song, since the poem consists of couplets without stanzaic divisions.

I wasn't aware of that, but it's one more reason to read the HOMEs.

Originally Posted by Inzil

It's notable, though, that to Túrin music seems to be associated with negative emotions only, whereas Tuor naturally seems to turn to it for comfort and confidence.

True point. In general, Turin is not very artistic, except for the art of fighting and hunting (or escaping from hunt) in the woods. He lacks the patience. Is music related to patience?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Is music related to patience?

It is if you practice!

[mhagain]

It's amazing how the little things strike you in re-readings.

And high and noble as was Elemmakil, greater and more lordly was Ecthelion, Lord of the Fountains, at that time Warden of the Great Gate. All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond...

What's incredible here is that Tolkien very obviously still had the old idea of how Ecthelion killed Gothmog in mind while writing this; that's as clear a Chekhov's Gun (Chekhov's Spike?) as any. Whether it would have survived in revisions if Tolkien had ever gotten round to writing the actual scene is of course unknown, but to see such an old concept bubble to the surface again is quite remarkable.

[Galin]

Hey I thought I was the only reader who noticed Ecthelion's spiked helm in the much later, 1950s re-write.



But this brings up the issue (well not really but I'm bringing it up anyway) about employing the early Fall of Gondolin in the 'world' of The Lord of the Rings. Ack, more canon concerns.

For example, some have argued that Orcrist possibly belongs in the hands of Ecthelion, as, based on the initial assumption that Orcrist belongs to one of the leaders of the named houses, the argument then eliminates various leaders of these Houses based on the early set of descriptions found in the Fall of Gondolin version printed in The Book of Lost Tales, descriptions that (in my opinion) we have no real idea Tolkien was going to necessarily keep decades later.

Well 'possibly'... but for myself I don't find this argument, given this particular mix of texts, very compelling.

Decades later, when Tolkien began to re-write the long prose Fall of Gondolin in the early 1950s, as noted the reader actually meets Ecthelion before the story is abandoned: 'All in silver was he clad, and upon his shining helm there was set a spike of steel pointed with a diamond; and as his esquire took his shield it shimmered as if it were bedewed with drops of rain, that were indeed a thousand studs of crystal.'

No mention of a sword named Orcrist, at least here; which sword now existed in Tolkien's imagination anyway. Was it going to be given to Ecthelion in the 1950s and noted later in the tale? Who knows? We find out some later details due to associated notes, like for example...

A) Turgon was going to be the tallest person in the world save Thingol -- yet according to even later text, Argon was seemingly taller than Turgon however. And according to the early Fall of Gondolin someone named 'Penlod' was 'tallest of Gnomes'.

B) Turgon would appear with 'a white and gold sword in a ruel-bone [ivory] sheath'

This wasn't noted in the early version. Anyway I'll pick a passage where the two stories can be compared:

Early FOG: Tuor and Voronwe find the outer gate, and entering it find a way, dark, rough going and circuituous, full of fearsome echoes, and they ran at times, fearing Melko's goblins, till they perceived it was the deceit of the place. And making for a gleam of light they came to another gate, through which they passed into the sunlight, but instantly a great gong rang out and they were surrounded by 'warriors in steel', and then they meet the Chief of the Guard of the Gondothlim, who tells them the names of Gondolin and allows them to pass on to the city, and Tuor and Voronwe now pass over the plain to the city.


1950s FOG [or 'Later Tuor']: Tuor and Voronwe find the outer 'gate', entering it there was no light, but all was at first silent, until Voronwe spoke, which awoke echoes that were enlarged and multiplied, and when the echoes died a voice was heard in the Elven-tongue commanding them not to stir. Elemmakil [Captain of the Guard] speaks to them, looks at them in the light of his lamp, and Noldor 'mail-clad and armed' stepped out of the darkness, and they were led to the wooden gate -- the first of various gates of course.

So the two versions, separated by decades of real time [in Tolkien's life] are alike in ways, but not wholly alike in detail, and in some ways are notably different. Christopher Tolkien comments about the array of the Gondothlim, for instance: 'Doubtless, if my father had continued the later Tuor, much would have re-emerged, however changed, if we judge by the rich 'heraldic' descriptions of the great gates and their guards in the Orfalch Echor.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Array of the Gondothlim, The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales II

In short I would agree that Ecthelion was 'probably' still going to spike his Balrog.

Not necessarily I guess, but it's too interesting to me that Tolkien should think to note the detail... at this point.

Pun probably intended

On that note, anyone read the Alex Lewis version?

[VarTalman]

Hey folks,
We have from the Bible an account of Jonah being sent to the great city outside the land of Israel. He is sent from the God of the Sea as is Tuor. He takes a hidden journey in a fish to the shore and goes to Nineveh preaching profound inspired words greater than man's speech. The city is great and requires a three-day journey through it - Jonah goes preaching the word. There is also parallel that the king acknowledges that this wiry prophet has been sent from God to the lost city...

I imagine Tolkien had a tough time finishing this story because Jonah ends with a city saved and God's prophet complaining. Makes for a tough ending to so well-told a tale.

I believe Tolkien's muse is the Bible account beginning to end. These unfinished stories could be various retellings of biblical accounts in Middle-Earth lore. If this is the key, their endings could potentially be deciphered.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by VarTalman

Hey folks,
We have from the Bible an account of Jonah being sent to the great city outside the land of Israel. He is sent from the God of the Sea as is Tuor. He takes a hidden journey in a fish to the shore and goes to Nineveh preaching profound inspired words greater than man's speech. The city is great and requires a three-day journey through it - Jonah goes preaching the word. There is also parallel that the king acknowledges that this wiry prophet has been sent from God to the lost city...

I imagine Tolkien had a tough time finishing this story because Jonah ends with a city saved and God's prophet complaining. Makes for a tough ending to so well-told a tale.

I believe Tolkien's muse is the Bible account beginning to end. These unfinished stories could be various retellings of biblical accounts in Middle-Earth lore. If this is the key, their endings could potentially be deciphered.

Greetings, VarTalman,

I've never made a connection between Tuor's tale and Jonah's before, and thinking about it I can definitely see some connections. Voronwë coming ashore miraculously, alone out of a whole crew, is definitely evocative--though different enough that I would certainly hesitate to say inspired, let alone a retelling--and coupled with the fact that someone in the tale is being sent as an emissary to a doomed city, certainly makes points of comparison worth exploring.

But that's a long way from saying "Tolkien's muse is the Bible account beginning to end," and on that point I would have to protest vehemently. Two major elements of Jonah's tall are drastically lacking:

1.) Tuor and Voronwë are both willing to do Ulmo's bidding, whereas the first act of Jonah's story--and the whole reason the giant fish is involved in the first place--is because Jonah does not want to go to Nineveh. While a touch of reluctance (but nothing to the extent of Jonah) MIGHT be argued for Voronwë, I don't see how we can really say that about Tuor.

2.) Nineveh repents. Now, there is the side issue that Ulmo isn't sending a messenger to Gondolin because Gondolin is full of sinners, but I'll grant you that he IS trying to save them, so the parallel exists; but Gondolin does NOT heed the message of Ulmo. Nineveh is saved, but the destruction prophesied for Gondolin most certainly comes about--and you can't say that Tolkien was going to rewrite this version of the story to be more in accord with the Biblical tale. Not only is there not a scrap of evidence he ever countenanced changing one of the major tales of the legendarium so drastically, Gondolin's fall was already "in print" in The Hobbit and in the finished (though not yet published) Lord of the Rings--and this was to be part of a Silmarillion that he still hoped to see published WITH The Lord of the Rings.

So, as a blanket statement, the idea that Tolkien was working with the Book of Jonah as his primary inspiration is one that I have to reject. But I could certainly have been in the leafmould of influences on him, and if it is, perhaps more parallels could be unearthed. The last act of Jonah's story, where he has to learn his second lesson of the story, that God is willing to save all people--even the pagan, hated, Ninevites--seems to have no parallel in any version of Tuor's tale, unless it is in the fact that Ulmo contemplates helping the Gondolindrim at all, since they ought to fall under the Curse.