I don't understand this either...

[Thinlómien]

This popped again to my mind just a minute ago. I'm in the school library and overheard some of my fellow students speaking about the LotR films. "The third is sooo homoerotic." "Yes, it really is. I can't understand how it can be that homoerotic. The others aren't." "Well, the second's too. Just think of it. The whole film's just Legolas and Aragorn staring at each other."

This wasn't even the first time Iheard something like this. Some of my former classmates kept speculating about relationships between Frodo and Sam or Aragorn and Legolas. I admit that might have been partly to annoy me, but they wouldn't have speculated that if they hadn't noticed a possible connection, however slight that was.

In the biggest and most renown Finnish newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat, there was an article about fan fiction something like year ago. There was a pic from TTT where Legolas and Aragron converse and in the text there was a homoerotic Aragorn+Legolas fanfic quote. The text implied that the fanfic had been inspired by the movies.

Now, where's all this come from? Is there some hidden gay agenda in the movies? Or are the movies unintentionately homoerotic? Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I'm quite at loss with this, and I'd like to hear some opinions.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere?

I think this is the right point. I might be mistaken, however.

Anyway, only one other thing I have to say is, that probably the moments of Aragorn and Legolas staring at each other, or Frodo and Sam, or even Boromir's death scene, are the moments when the deep feelings of the heroes are shown: the purest feelings of friendship, understanding the other one, sharing the burden of the other at least psychically, letting him know that I am his friend and I am here to stand by his side - against the dark things which he has to fight against. In the movie, it is harder to describe these moments rather than in the book - you can just show the characters staring at each other, you cannot describe what they think (unless you use that "resonating voice in my head" trick). And because it seems many people don't understand these feelings, they make their own conclusions about what's going on in that scene.
I don't know if you know older films like Vinnetou, but this is just the same. Vinnetou&Old Shatterhand make themselves brothers, there are these moments like Aragorn&Legolas. I don't think if people speculated about Vinnetou&Old Shatterhand in this way. But it's the same: these are the moments where the audience is shown that they are not just "Hey man we gonna smash these Orcs then you can return home and I'll get hired as mercenary for the Rohirrim militia" meet-on-the-road band of hired killers. There are relationships between them, they support each other, they are even friends to each other. This is what makes Aragorn and even Boromir (who hardly knows him) jump to Gandalf's aid against the terrible demon from the underworld, crying "Elendil!" and "Gondor!" I'm not sure if there is a moment in the movie when Aragorn stares at Merry and Pippin when they realize they are safe after the long pursuit in Rohan, but if it is not, it could be there as well. This is what the scenes show: the characters care for each other, and if someone cannot understand that, it's his problem. So that's about it I think.

[alatar]

Like when viewing clouds, people see what they want. Having watched LotR many times now, I've noticed that PJ is very anti-Penguin.. Have you seen even one penguin in the whole 12+ hours of film? Pretty clear, the statement that he's making...

or

PJ is, in RotK, obviously prophetically showing the coming Penguin Ascendancy. If you look, you'll notice that the Gondorian soldiers look somewhat like penguins. They and their lands are under attack by the hordes of Sauron, which really represent Mankind and Technology and their encroachment into the penguin's niche. The green of the Army of the Dead shows how Mother Nature will, eventually, rise up and set things to rights, saving the penguins from extinction. After this, the penguins will march out of their normal environments and begin to 'push back' against mankind.

PJ's message is obvious, if you know what to look for.

Regarding Aragorn and Legolas: Sometimes I think that if action figure males aren't of the James Bond/Rambo/Schwarzenegger type, where one is a cold warrior that has no emotions beyond anger, except when dealing with a female fling. Relationships with other males are either deadly, as they are competitors, or standoff-ish, as they are 'friends.' You might see a handshake, or even some other 'pat,' but it's clear that the person has no affections or feelings for the other, and, at need, would kill that one as well.

You gotta be tough!

In the TV movie (adapted from Stephen King's novel of the same name) The Stand, towards the end three 'good guys' walk into the valley of death as it were. Each is portrayed as a strong man, though as they walk they take each others' hands and surrender themselves, bravely, to the ministrations of the bad guys. Later, when jailed, one is executed in his cell. The other two clasp hands as they can through the bars.

It's just too cool, as here we have men, obviously tough and not effete nor feminized, showing emotion and feelings towards other men in a brotherly sense. They lost none of their 'manliness' in doing so, nor was the affection intended to be considered romantic.

Is the show of consideration between Aragorn and Legolas, a brotherly thing, being misconstrued as somehow romantic as the audience isn't used to seeing warrior-types showing feelings? I love the scene where Aragorn watches Boromir expire. Here's this tough guy, who just beheaded a big baddie, trying to comfort his brother, then weeping over his passing.

Aragorn loved his 'brother' Boromir, and I don't see it as romantic.

Then again, I was looking for the penguins...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think people are mixing up Erotic feelings and love!

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

These feelings are not easily potraied in a film, I would imagine. You could make them say it, but I doubt that it would work well. . . there where not one scene in the movies that made me think that the charachters enjoyed each others company in that way, well exept for the scene where the hobbits are all cudly in a bed and Gandalf think it is great to watch. . .

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .
But I guess Beren and Luthien kind of goes against that theory.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Originally Posted by thinlo

Now, where's all this come from? Is there some hidden gay agenda in the movies? Or are the movies unintentionately homoerotic? Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I think part of it is probably the teenagers having sexual agendas. A lot of teens do see sex everywhere, even where it isn't and never was. I am not one of them, but a lot of them do. It's actually a little disgusting, this obsession with sex.

I think that another factor is that in these unfortunate times, friendship has become very superficial. People are afraid of love because often times, the media overlooks great friendships in favor of romance. It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls. It's socially acceptable for girls to love their friends. Physical contact between girls isn't frowned upon as much as it is between guys...though I still have the memorable experience of being asked if my best friend and I were in love. We just laugh a lot together and aren't afraid to hug each other...but we're both straight and she had a boyfriend at the time that question was asked. Silly thing to ask, if you ask me.

It's a lot worse for men, at least here in the USA (can't speak about in other countries). So many of them, while not strictly homophobic, seem to be mortally afraid to be mistaken for gay...and the problem is intensified by the fact that men are discouraged from being emotional at all.

Anyway, because of this tabboo on contact and even on close friendship, sometimes seeing true, close friendship makes people feel uncomfortable...

And the drought of close friendships, particularly in the media, makes for the possibility that people will make the mistake of assuming love between friends is actually love between significant others.

Middle-earth lacks the social standards of our modern world.

Frodo and Sam are close friends. They (gasp of mock horror!) are able to touch each other. They are not afraid to be emotional together, to share deep feelings of joy and of sorrow and of fear. They, in fact, (NOOOO!) love each other. Because they're FRIENDS.

Aragorn is friends with Boromir. They've been to hell and back together, fought together, and travelled together for a long time. Of course they're friends. By the end, they each come to recognize the nobility in the other. I find it perfectly reasonable that Boromir's death would be emotional for both of them...and yes, Aragorn kisses Boromir's forehead after he passes. (ewwww! ) It's a gesture of respect, grief, and of platonic love. There should not be any kind of issue.

And so Aragorn and Legolas look at each other. Well. You can't expect the Fellowship to travel all that long way without once making eye contact! And they, too, are friends. Does making eye contact with a friend mean that you are in love with him or her? No, and in fact, the question sounds absurd to me.

No one in my close circle of friends had a problem grasping this fact, because we are all the unashamed type of friend. We're close, and as such, are not afraid to hug each other or to cry together...or to make eye contact, .

The trouble is that other people see it and can't understand. They feel uncomfortable. And one of the reflex ways of dealing with discomfort or feelings of awkwardness is to make a joke about it to break the ice...and so they make jokes about the characters being gay. Some people actually look at it and see homosexuality. Some of them may actually be gay, and then it probably is a case of, as Alatar pointed out, seeing what they want to see.

I feel sorry for the people who think that way but aren't gay, though. Because they have never known true friendship.

Whew...that was long, and actually turned into a rant. I think I ought to clarify, though...I have no problem with homosexuality in its rightful place. For instance, I loved Brokeback Mountain. But people not understanding friendship and that whole love=romance thing...or more accurately love=sex thing really bothers me. It's a rant that's been lurking in me ever since I found Tolkien fandom.

To me, the books are practically about that kind of friendship-love. It's something I hold very dear.

[Nimrodel_9]

Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I would have to agree with these two. I could go on and on about this, but I don't have time.
You know, I think that our world is just a little messed up. I mean, some people can pull homosexual stuff from anything. They just can't believe that it is possible for two guys to be good friends and nothing more. They are probably sitting there, watching the movie with their best friend of the same sex, and think nothing of that. It's all very frustrating. I hate it when people bring stuff like that up.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Actually I don't think it is teenagers that is to blame for seeing these things. . .Sex is almost every where in western culture and I doubt that the teenagers put it there.

[Boromir88]

There definitely is a big misconception over friendship between males in the United States. I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks. As only the movie Borat will show this 'clash of cultures' and the differences between greeting a fellow man in the US and that of other countries.

Whether you think it's stupid, or not, really isn't the point. The point is it's reality in the US that there is a strict set of man laws for the men to follow under or their sexuality will be up for question. Some common Man Laws around are:

-Men may not talk to other men about anything except sports, beer, cars, poker, and sex (with a female of course).
-A Man may not walk through the same door as another male friend unless the two are in a race where a prize in involved.
-A man need not say anything to a friend that is walking by. All that needs to be done is a nod of the head, no words should ever be exchanged.
-Men should never ever for any reason watch a Soap Opera

There is a belief in the US that Men in no way can have strong connections or friendships with other men. It's strictly an impersonal relationship of Men...say getting together to watch a sports game.

Seems rather foolish, and is certainly homophobic, but that's how it is. Anything that has to deal with emotions/feelings should not be done between men. That's probably why (at least) American students view the friendships between Sam/Frodo, and Aragorn/Legolas in a sexual way, because the idea that men can be personal with eachother and still only be friends is not possible.

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Rune

Actually I don't think it is teenagers that is to blame for seeing these things. . .Sex is almost every where in western culture and I doubt that the teenagers put it there.

I quite agree. I hate watching TV, or even driving by billboards. Though I don't believe it's just western culture...bur we do have some kind of different twist on it, I think.

Boro hits the nail on the head, too, for me. I have ranted on many occasion about the "Man Laws" and foolishness of it.

I think there are countless examples in literature, even American literature, from even just the early half of the past century, which people just don't understand now because the concept of "love" has been equated with "sex," especially on the male front. Girls will say to each other that they "love" each other, but I don't know how often they really mean it, because I think it likely that they feel the same way: that "love" is reserved for on specific type/side/definition of it - it is simply more socially acceptable for girls to say "I love you" to each other as well as to guys.

Edit: I'd also like to point out that an "obsession" with sex, I think, is a rather natural, and dare I say hormonal thing. Teenagers (and people much older, too!) are going to think about it quite a lot, and are going to see it a lot of places it isn't. Maybe this is because of the culture, but maybe it's a natural thing. What I think makes the difference between a mature person and an immature person is to be more than simple thoughts or feelings, and to setup a separation between the natural workings of their consciousness and preconsciousness, and their actions, speech, and real considerations. That's human self-control...I think part of what makes us human. But that is an entirely different conversation...

[Folwren]

I, too, have heard comments about homosexuality being protrayed in the movie and books - mostly pertaining to Frodo and Sam. (I actually never heard Aragorn and Legolas paired up...I never noticed that they looked at each other except in conversation. Sheesh. What's a man supposed to do while talking to another guy?) It makes me hot with anger and disgust.

I talked about it once with my older brother. We were talking about how close in friendship Frodo and Sam got on their journey to Mordor and through it. He said as follows:

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

And I think that's it. They just can't comprehend the torture, the agony, and the difficulty of the journey, the mental torment it must have been! You need someone to lean on!

And, yeah, as Durelin said - girl's often say 'I love you' to one another. What about your family? You say that to your Mom and Dad and siblings (well........you should). There are quite a few different types of love, and I think the problem with the people who are saying that LotR is homosexual don't understand that.

You also need to understand that - at least in the U.S. - everything is about sex. You can't get away from it - unless you're homeschooled, like I was. There is no other 'love' to the common teenager or young person, and even to some of the older supposedly 'mature' person, than that. And so, when they watch a movie that has no girls in it, they try to apply it and what do they find?? My blood boils to think. I think that's actually why PJ had to add Arwen so much....to get some people off his back about having no girl in it. Bah humbug.

Anyway, there are just some of my thoughts. I think it's disgusting. The thought would have never run through my little innocent mind if it weren't for some sick people.

-- Folwren

[Durelin]

I feel the need to say one more thing...

I would have thought of it on my own, just not seriously.

I don't really find it at all disturbing or incomprehensible for someone to think of it - just to think of it, like a simple musing or observation. But to think of it seriously? Thinking of it as true? No.

[Brinniel]

It seems ever since the movies were first released, the idea of Frodo and Sam being gay has been around. I do think it's just a joke and most don't take it seriously, but still, after awhile it can be quite sickening.

As mentioned, I think this mostly comes from the idea that the true male hero is supposed to "manly," meaning they cannot show any sort of emotion or affection. I hate the fact that in this day and age, people automatically assume that a man's love for another man can only be sexual. Men aren't robots- they're human. I appreciate that PJ kept the characters' affections for each other in the movies. For this, perhaps the relationships (another automatic assumption these days- that relationships are always romantic- no, friendships are relationships too) shown in the films are more realistic and human than most films you see in theatres today. Most films don't show that sort of affection, and it influences our culture. Maybe if more movies showed the type of love between characters that is seen in LotR, then relationships between Sam and Frodo and Aragorn and Legolas wouldn't be perceived as gay.

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

That said, I've been lucky enough not to deal with most of those problems for the last few months. A large percentage of my school is gay, so most students understand the line between what's just friendship and what's sexual. No one is uncomfortable about homosexuality, therefore jokes don't need to be made about it. Then again, I think the straight males at my school often feel the need to be extra "manly" because it is extremely easy for them to be misinterpreted as gay...

[Rikae]

I agree with much of what has already been said. I think it's a symptom of people's inability to understand the idea of platonic love or real friendship anymore. It seems like this is especially the case in America, as Boro says, and I find it incredibly sad: people who can't comprehend the idea of love that is not romantic/sexual are missing so much in life. I also think a lot of the giggling, in the case of teens, is an attempt to fit in and not necessarily a reflection of their feelings. I seem to recall (when I was a teenager, at least) the 'naughtiest' ideas being, somehow the safest; they put you in a position of power, while appearing naive is a fate worse than death!

[Thinlómien]

Oh, this seems to have provoked quite many replies.

Anyway, I wanted to hear your thoughts before saying mine, and I must say I'm on the same lines along with many people here: there was no hidden gay agenda, people see what they want to see and the concept of friendship between males is crooked nowadays.

In the books the male characters show their affection and love to each other too. When in the Houses of healing it is said that Aragorn kisses Merry, I don't think anyone reading the book regards it as a homoerotic scene, or more importantly, as a romantic kiss.

Originally Posted by alatar

Like when viewing clouds, people see what they want. Having watched LotR many times now, I've noticed that PJ is very anti-Penguin.. Have you seen even one penguin in the whole 12+ hours of film? Pretty clear, the statement that he's making...

Ahh! I KNEW there was something terribly wrong with the movies! I knew!

Originally Posted by Rune

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

I agree. Legolas (at least) mentions his love for Aragorn a couple of times. First he says that all that know Aragorn love him in some way (he knows Aragorn so that clearly includes himself) and later when he speaks with Gimli about the restoring of Minas Tirith he says that it's also for "love for the Lord of The White Tree". I've never seen this as homosexul, and given the contexts, I don't think anyone else can see it either. (No, not even a homophobic teenager boy ... Or maybe actually, but the point was that it's not certainly the first thing to pop in the mind of an average reader.)

Originally Posted by Rune

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .

I think he actually says so in the letters, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Zali

It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls.

Yes, but the friendships between girls are portrayed as superficious and the way that they can break any time when the girls fall in love with the same guy...

Originally Posted by Boro

I believe it's better understood in other parts of the world, as the common greeting method in Europe (whether it's a male greeting a male or not) is to kiss him on the cheeks.

Well, yes, maybe southern Europe, but not in Finland. Though there is some cultural difference. I once watched an american reality tv show (the format being something like 10 straight guys and 10 gay guys and a woman who has to pick a straight one) where there were two men that had to sleep in the same room and there was only a pair bed in the room. What do these guys do? They flip a coin which one has to sleep on the floor. Really, I think that's ridiculous. I bet in Finland the attitude would have been something like "I can sleep beside you, but if you do something guy I'll butcher you".

Originally Posted by Brinniel

(apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)

That's so true. A friend of mine (straight guy) said it was one of the greatest moments in his life, when parting from his friends when changing school, his best friend came and hugged him. This friend of mine has grown up in a "men can be just friends and hug each other" -atmosphere and he said it's really distressing that guys can't hug their friends, since hugging is for him a natural way of showing affection. Sadly, this friend of mine is definitely an exception among the guys here in Finland.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Brother of Folwren

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"

I think it more likely that they would get killed. . .

Originally Posted by Brinniel

The problem is that in our society, homosexuality has become so frowned down upon. Straight males don't want to be misinterpreted as gay, so it's important for them to stick to their "manly" behavior. I noticed in my high school, many guys would joke about homosexuality...sometimes they would go as far as imitating gay males. How would they do this? By hugging each other (apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay ) and slapping each other's butts. Joking around and commenting that Sam and Frodo are so obviously gay is similar to that. Most people joke about this simply because they are uncomfortable with the subject of homosexuality. It's their own problem and they need to get over it.

Actually in the Homophobic parts of Denmark guys would never pretend to be gay. . . but the thing about pretending to be gay is something people do. . .something I do. Let me tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia, if anything it is an expresion of the opposite. How do we do it. . . well we actually make passes at each other and such. Not by hugging, because hugging is the way good friends greet each other (yes males too).

Some of my friends are gay so I really would hate to be labeled homophobic because I joke about being gay. It is more a thing we do to signal that we really don't care which sexual orientation people have.

I have done stuff that would probably make people "mark" me as gay in alot of places. . .but it held no meaning for me. It was kind of "I do this because I chose to and you can make of it what you want"

[Boromir88]

apparently if one male hugs another male, they're gay)~Brinniel

The typical man-to-man hug (I've witnessed and I do the most) is to shake with one hand, pull in, and with the other arm give them a hug. So, it's kind of like a one-arm hug. With family though it's a bit different the 'full hug' is most commonly used.

[alatar]

This man-to-man thing may be cultural, genetic and/or specific to individuals. If male children are raised in households where 'Dad' does not hug them, said child may grow to think that such behavior is unacceptable between males. Children seem to be imprinted in the first few years of their lives, and if Dad is not present, or unemotional/detached/distracted, then this may affect the child. On the other hand, knowing something about genetics and individuals (having a few children myself ), each child is unique, regardless how it is raised. Some are more needy, more touchy, more cerebral, more physical, etc.

And within cultures there are groups where hugging between males is acceptable, even though the person may not be a touchy person and the person lives, for example, in the USA. Plus, men, on average, are different than women (Duh!) for survival reasons. My wife is the nurturer, pulling the kids close. Me, I'm the one getting them ready to leave the nest and survive in the world. The kids benefit (hopefully) from having us both.

Anyway...

PJ, no dolt, obviously knew that some would see things that he did not intend. Is this why he has Sam talking of Rosie and eventually getting married at the end of all things? On the other hand, there's the 'bedroom scene' where the Fellowship wrestle a bit too much, and so maybe that was put it so that those looking for penguins would having something to see.

[Lalwendë]

Boro, most of what you say about men in the US is the same in the UK! Never ever approach a Brit you do not already know very well with a hug or (heaven forbid!) a kiss on the cheek or you will be labelled as 'forward' and therefore suspect, whether male or female. Male casual friendships (and many serious, lifelong ones, too) usually revolve around beer, arguments about football and cars and a lot of competitive bragging and banter. Only in Yorkshire, where the men are confident of their ultra-butchness are men able to call one another 'love' with impunity.

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one. And even adult women like to daydream about characters in films and on TV - this is why Mr Darcy (as played by Colin Firth) is now symbolic of the 'dream man' for so many women, and Helen Fielding cleverly picked up on it for Bridget Jones (about the only clever thing...grumble grumble...).

Some people will go on about this or that 'pairing' in LotR (or any other film) being 'gay' because they wish to joke, sadly, and labelling something as 'gay' denigrates it in their minds, so don't listen to everything you hear. But even from the books its perfectly possible to read homoeroticism into some aspects, e.g. the relationship of Frodo and Sam, and its not 'wrong' to do so.

[Glirdan]

I would have to say that your theory on teenagers having a sexual agenda and applying it to everything they see. It's the hormones. It gets to them (I should say us, but I'm more mature than that...most of the time that is ) really quite easily. If you took a poll of the world's population, how many of them do you think would still be a virgin? Honestly. I go to schooland all I hear from others is "Oh, I slept with so and so over the weekend".

Personally, I too (I hate to admit it, but it was only then) thought that the way our beloved Professor wrote some of the lines between Frodo and Sam was a little homoerotic. However, after reading the parts with Sam and Rosie, I got over it and came to the conclusion that Sam and Frodo hve a very close connection. I personally have never had that connection with another guy because I am too sensitive and most guys (no offence meant for the other males here) only think about sex and girls. So everytime I see two guys really close, I sort of get the homoerotic impression.

Anyway, completely off topic. As I said, I don't think there was any intetion in both the movies or the books for homoeroticness. That's my conclusion. (Wow, I got really off topic in that post....wow...)

[Lalwendë]

Indeed, I would doubt there's any intention on Tolkien's part for such scenes to be homoerotic, but the imagination is a curious thing, and if people get that from reading what he wrote then there is nothing 'wrong' in it; it's surprising what sorts of things the human mind finds stimulating, and writers and artists don't really have any control over our creative imaginings. And anyway, if they will insist on putting Sean Bean in their films....

[Mithalwen]

If you have seen Lady Chatterley there is precious little left to imagine .... and while the 13 Gamgee children may have been an attempt to over compensate... you can't help thinking that a man who could name characters Teleporno and Shagrat may have been oblivious of some perceptions of his writing....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

If you have seen Lady Chatterley there is precious little left to imagine .... and while the 13 Gamgee children may have been an attempt to over compensate... you can't help thinking that a man who could name characters Teleporno and Shagrat may have been oblivious of some perceptions of his writing....

Oh yes. I have a VHS tape of it and it's all crackly now...

Indeed, Tolkien wrote in (slightly) more innocent times, with his use of the descriptive words queer and gay, though I'm certain he would not have been entirely green about homosexuality, as not only did he go to a Boys' school but he worked in a University with many gay students and academics, some of them quite infamous, not least Tolkien's friend and pupil Auden, who fell in love with Isherwood while at Oxford.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

the thing about pretending to be gay is something people do. . .something I do. Let me tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with homophobia, if anything it is an expresion of the opposite. How do we do it. . . well we actually make passes at each other and such. Not by hugging, because hugging is the way good friends greet each other (yes males too).

Some of my friends are gay so I really would hate to be labeled homophobic because I joke about being gay.

Well, I don't think that every man who jokes about being gay is homophobic. And the situation is different depending where you living. My high school is located in one of the most conservative states in the United States. Many people there really are homophobic and homosexuality is not as welcome as some other places. I didn't know of many gay people in that school, and I wonder if perhaps it was because they were afraid of coming out. There was a lesbian couple at my school, and each day they walked the halls hand-in-hand, I could feel the negative energy directed towards them. I do not think that all straight men who imitate gays are doing it to be hurtful, but there are some who do. And the guys in my high school who did it might have not been homophobic at all. But the vibe I got from how they acted made me think that they imitate gay males because they do not understand homosexuality, and it is their way to interpret how they feel about it. I believe that a similar attitude is directed to LotR when comes to interpreting male friendships as sexual.

I do realize guys who are completely comfortable with homosexuality still joke about it. I see it at my current school all the time. Yet, this joking is done in a different light. People don't do it because they're uncomfortable, but instead use it to express their acceptance. My school is well-known for the high percentage of gay students, and students like to emphasize this by joking about it. Often, the joke is how gay males outnumber the straight ones. We even put on a play, Romeo and Julian, which only accentuated the stereotype we're given.

Okay, sorry for any rambling. I thought I should just clarify...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women.

I didn't know that, but it doesn't surprise me one bit.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be.

I think you're right - in the case of adult women - probably not so much what they saw as what they found fun to imagine.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one.

True, but on the other hand, it may just be the flipside of the male fascination with lesbians. There is something appealing about a sexual situation where both people involved are attractive to you; and while being attractive themselves, also share the viewer's appreciation of the other's attractiveness. Double the pleasure, you know, double the fun, doublemint gum...um, yeah.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Seriously, from what I now know about 'slash' (and I didn't even know what it was that long ago) most of it is created by and for adult women. I can't say whether some of them viewed the male relationships in LotR as actually homoerotic, but they may have imagined them to be. As odd as this may seem, a lot of women find gay couples either exciting or beautiful. This possibly says a lot about women and if they perceive such relationships as 'non-threatening'; this is a probable reason, as psychologists say the success of boybands is down to girls finding non-threatening, quite 'feminised' young men who they can have as imaginary boyfriends until its time for them to get a real one.

I thought of writing about this one but thought that might be offending to someone...

So, naturally I think you have a point here.

Elijah Wood and Orlando Bloom might form a boyband! Just think of the success - and going by that road, I don't see that anyone can honestly think that PJ (or his production team) chose those actors just because of their acting skills!

------
But going back to Tolkien and the LotR. I think there might be something in Tolkien's writing that does make people of west in our time to look things from homoerotical point of view. That does not mean Tolkien wrote it as such, but that our culture has kind of toned down those parts of our inheritance that would have explained it otherwise.

Just remember Tolkien's early friends and their club of associates and then the war and what it did to that circle of young men. Add to this Tolkien's other experiences of war; not just fear and anxiety but also those of brotherhood and closeness to others in "harms way". I think it's not too far-fetched to read these experiences in the LotR between Frodo and Sam (and possibly between Aragorn and Legolas, maybe even Legolas and Gimli - and Gandalf could be a good general loving his lads whom he sends to the peril... and so on).

But that experience is here no more. The people who lived by the cultural standards of the beginning of the last century are already under the ground and the last veterans of WW2 who have any experience of utmost challenge are getting very old indeed. So we are left out of this experience as a shared one. And that is a good thing - in a sense that we haven't had a war of that scale (or any comparable lenghty tragedy) in the west after the WW2.

But we may mourn the loss of the notion of deeper friendship. We are the people always ready to mourn over things. Like any great artist, T.S. Elliot was ahead of his time when he wrote The Hollow Men (in "The Waste Land") just after the WW1. It fits us now even better than it fitted people then!

Now why is there no comradeship anymore in the old sense as we all seem to be so individual, why is all physical denied in the west unless it's sexual? That's a path I'm not wishing to engage right now, but I know there are a lots of philosophers and sociologists who have spent a good amount of time with this question... enough to fill the Downs, anyway.

PS. Well Vietnam... and now Iraq, might prove exceptions to my point of "no major catastrophy" after WW2. Well, I'm an European... The Vietnam-war produced the hippies - both at the homefront and in the battlefield. It might be too early to tell, what the Iraq-war will generate?

[Holbytlass]

As I was folding a MT Doom mound of laundry I was kind of watching the last hour or so of TRoK on T.N.T. (tv channel) when certain scenes made me think of this thread. Since I wasn't totally engrossed in the movie I saw bits where I can quite see why people thought it was homo-ish. I have Elijah Wood and Peter Jackson to blame.

The scene where Frodo and Sam are now surrounded by the flowing lava after the ring is destroyed and Sam is saying he if he got married it would be to Rosie.
Frodo has that doe-eyed longing look in his face. I thought about it and it would make more sense for Frodo to have a barely there smile cause he's happy for his friend and in reminiscence of the Shire that he can now remember.

Same thing when Sam and Rosie do get married. Frodo has this longing look on his face rather than that same barely there smile between to people have gone through so much together and yet are still happy for each other.

And again. when Frodo wakes up from his ordeal finds Gandalf alive, all the others come into his room but Sam stays by the door. At least in this instance Sam has that barely there smile that I talk about but it's still too much of a longing look.

I know what Peter and Elijah were trying to convey but it was a bit too much.

[Liriodendron]

Well....that's an interesting comment....I sometimes didn't exactly get what emotions Elija Wood was trying to convey.
So....what do think Jackson and Wood were trying to convey in those particular scenes.....just out of curiosity.

I always figured it was mostly the class thing....a very fine, gentlemanly "master" and his loyal gardener, this particular bond is even generationally ingrained with the gaffer and Bilbo. It's of the finest kind, a caring that turns to non sexual love under the intense conditions of the quest. It was also a friendship love too after so much time.
But the "class" thing is a relic from the past that many of the really young set (teenagers) might not get.
Also.....I'm sure that many men still develop "love" bonds that aren't homoesque to this day (its a human thing to love and care! ) but you need a few years to develop these kinds of feelings. Women and men aren't that different, imo.

[MatthewM]

I came in too late on this thread, but I just want to throw my two cents in. Most people hit it on the head with their responses, and there's nothing I really can say that hasn't been said in previous posts. But one thing I can say is, it really, really gets me mad when people make fun and call characters like Frodo and Sam/ Aragorn and Boromir/Legolas and Aragorn/Merry and Pippin/any LotR character gay. As stated, these people that say that have never known a true loving friendship. I can see where some people might crack a joke once in a blue moon at a Frodo and Sam scene. Whatever, life goes on. But to actually think that about these characters and be serious about it is ridiculous.

It's sad how it is here in the US, everyone was pretty accurate with the "Man Laws". Here, if you talk to your best friend on the phone for a while (of course this doesn't apply to a girl talking to a girl) people probably make fun or crack a joke. That's just one of the examples. People should learn from The Lord of the Rings and really get a deep understanding of friendship and the sacrifices that come along with it.

It is true that, at least in the US, sex is everywhere, and this is all teens (High Schoolers in particular) see. They are also growing and learning about all this sex stuff, so obviously it's gonna be on their mind often. Face it, it's on almost everybody's mind often. It may be the media, because all that is on TV is dating games with brainless women picking from 4 desperate guys in a van ...(just one of the examples ) It could also be plain old hormones, like someone previous had said, enhanced by all the sex on the media.

The whole situation is pretty sad.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

And again. when Frodo wakes up from his ordeal finds Gandalf alive, all the others come into his room but Sam stays by the door. At least in this instance Sam has that barely there smile that I talk about but it's still too much of a longing look.

Hahaha, I do agree with what you say, because some scenes I can see as well where some people might say it. But, also speaking of "once in a blue moon", have you ever seen that YouTube thing with this scene? lol.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

4 desperate guys in a van

Anyone else thinking about this LotR quote?

Legolas and Gimli were to ride again together in company of Aragorn and Gandalf, who went in the van..

--Return of the King, Book V, Chapter X: The Black Gate Opens.

The fact that there's four of them mentioned by name just makes it better.

[Lalwendë]

What are you saying Form? That it was really just one big dating show? These four guys being bundled into a van by an MTV crew and sent round to the desperate Eowyn? I think she chose the only one she could to be honest...shame he was already taken...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Is it not simply because most characters are male? I seem to remember inventing some awful soap-storyline for the Lord of the Rings characters which, of course, had to involve copious amounts of amorous scenarios. Men together, yes; but what about the men and the women (disgraceful stuff involving Arwen), and lots to do with Hobbits.

It's not all to do with sex but there are only so many basic storylines.

People want to make fun of stuff. It's surely a sign of health if one can take everything with a pinch of salt and, yes, laugh at everything. When playing Lord of the Rings risk, a certain other Barrowdowner and I make constant ridiculous jokes—some crude, but more often than not detailing farce or the absurd.

The bureaucracy of leaving a single Orc to defend the Shire in times of war.

It just so happens that sex is as simple, as crude, and as offensive as it gets; and (sometimes) very funny.

Watch any film, any television show, any cartoon, and be aware that at the same time, somewhere in the world, a group of teenagers are watching the same thing and laughing about how gay it is. We can take this issue for the Lord of the Rings if we want, but I think it's a bit of a waste of time.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Originally Posted by Folwren

"They just don't understand what real friendship is like. You stick two of those boys or young men together, give them a gun and send them out to fight in Vietnam by themselves and they'll become close friends, too!"-- Folwren

your right, go to most conflict zones or anywhere where death is a common every day thing and the friends will love each other more and be closer.
mabey someone should start wwIII

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW

mabey someone should start wwIII

While waiting for it people should maybe enjoy different wws... Might help too...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

WW3: didn't I mod that?

(Sorry)

[Thinlómien]

I found this (by accident) in YouTube yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbstkXowlAc

It is a music video to a song called Hungry Eyes and it shows glances Aragorn and Legolas cast each other in the movies (though not all the expressions are ones they cast at each other). You kind of can see where all these gay theories pop up from (or then I just am as silly as the video-maker ).

[Lotrelf]

Yes. This all is about teenagers' attitude towads these characters. Neither Professor nor Jackson ever meant to show anything like this. Even in real life it happens. While talking about a fictional character dearly, most friends think I am "in love" with him(most of the time happens with me). But, the thing is to love a character, you don't have to be in love with them.
It's all about the society we live in. People tend to think everything connected to romance etc.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

But, the thing is to love a character, you don't have to be in love with them.
It's all about the society we live in. People tend to think everything connected to romance etc.

Indeed. The notion of "love" in modern times has been corrupted in that any mention of the word tends to be taken in a romantic context. In the books, I take the love between Frodo and Sam as that of brothers.
Legolas had a feeling love for Aragron, as he said to Merry and Pippin,

'For all those who come to know him come to love him after their own fashion, even the cold maiden of the Rohirrim.'

ROTK The Last Debate

Aragorn was such an exceptional man, as a leader, commander, and would-be king, that he inspired what was a brotherly or fatherly love in Legolas and the rest of the Fellowship. Even Éowyn's love toward him was not really romantic. She did not love Aragorn as much as the idea of Aragorn: a strong, resolute, dignified man who was free to pursue his own destiny.

[Liriodendron]

I agree....and even regular romance is dying off too....love = sex.
Their is no term for a subordinate bro....which I guess is what Sam was to Frodo.

[Lotrelf]

Lovely post, Inziladun.
Aragorn was indeed an exceptional man. Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, rest of the Fellowship, and the Gondorians loved him so dearly. �0‡6owyn's love was romantic for him. Though, it did not cause her to go mad for him "that way". She loved him purely, not caring about her own feelings. That's why, after being 'neglected'(for that lack of a better word)she thought of dying.
Frodo and Sam's love has lots images in my mind. It is not only brotherly love that I can think of. There's much more. Sam not only loves Frodo, but he worships him. Frodo, like Aragorn is loved by others immediately. Be it Sam or the rest of Fellowship or even Gollum, they love him dearly. Sam loves him as a parent loves him child or a child loves his parent. As an ordinary person loves God. Their love is all but romantic.
Tolkien's work is so powerful because of devotion, respect and love that these characters have for each other!