Fanfiction: the definition of Mary-Sue

[Evisse the Blue]

Cool thread, very educational and fun! I'm all clear now on what's a Mary Sue. Though I dont read much LOTR fic, much less write any, I can tell there's a plague of them out there. Ick! I only just realized that my sister, who's a lotr fic writer (though thankfully never posted anything on the net yet, is an avid Mary Sue writer. Maybe I'll get hold of one of her stories once so I can get a second opionion from you guys, to make sure I don't make false accusations against her. Anyway, her excuse is that she's only 15, and she hasn't written anything so moronic as the "Laura Sue" fic from Ophelia's link. ( )
I went to the library of moria link out of curiosity (I read slash before though not LOTR related) and I must say I was surprised at the quality of some of the stories. Laugh if you will but I thought the Balrog/WK one and the Elrond/Ugluk one were very well done. Don't judge them untill you've read them! Also, I found an Elrond/ Smeagol one in verse, which is just hilarious. I have yet to find the Legolas/Smaug one, though.

Symestreem, as regards your challenge I remember there was a similar one at the henneth annun site (the link to it was already given in this thread), only the requirement was to make them 'well-written', I guess this would include realistic (?) You guys might want to check those out.

Oh, and a question regarding these MS's: If the MS represents the wish fulfillments of the author, sort of an ideal alter ego, why are there so many instances of traumatic past/ present and/or future? What - Is it some sort of death wish?? And should this criterion for a Mary Sue be held so important?

[symestreem]

Tortured pasts are the easiest way to give a Sue emotional complexity. Also an excuse for her to break down crying in a handsome elf/man/tomato's arms. Also, killing off all family members can be an easy way to get them out of the story. Plus, instant sympathy for the Sue, and a reason for her to be "tough girl".

[StarJewel]

Sues...every time I see one, I want to just bay at the moon. It's really a shame how much is out there, because it tends to distract people from finding the really good stories. I write fanfiction, (mainly Silmarillion based) and know firsthand what writing a Sue is like. The thing is, I don't think people who write Sues realize that they are writing them. I very nearly ended up with a Sue-like character, but, thank heaven, someone called me on it. It is very easy to lapse into something like that.

[Morgul Queen]

Silm!Fic? *bows to ye* Is it good? Does it stick to canon? Do I need to kill any of your characters?

[Sapphire_Flame]

Yeah, go get 'em, Morgy! ^ ^

That's a good checklist you put together, Elennar. I may have to apply it to my almost-Sue to try to fix her.

BTW, I have found an interesting article concerning 'Sues. It can be found HERE, along with many other good articles on writing. The fandom she uses for reference is Star Trek, but the ideas are applicable no matter what fandom you're writing in.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Encaitare]

I once began writing a Mary-Sue *twitch* it was a *twitch* Legolas/MS fic *grimace* but now I think he's a pansy and realized what I wrote was absolute crap, so I don't have to worry about it anymore! I sent the first part to my friend to read, and she liked it, but I found it horrific and deleted it.

My heroine wasn't *that* perfect, though. She wasn't exceptional in appearance (she was pretty, yes, but not violet-eyed and silver-haired) or the singing type (thank Elbereth!) or magical in any way. She was handy with a sword though. But again, it was crap.

I now try to avoid Mary-Sues at all costs, in reading and in writing. Although, a well-written Sue can actually make a decent fic. But those are incredibly rare! And now, in a show of shameless self-promotion, anyone who wants to read angsty but blissfully Sue-free fiction can find the link to my ff.net account on my BD profile.

[StarJewel]

Morgul Queen:
I'm not sure if I consider my own stuff "good". I try to stick to canon as much as possible, especially with how certian characters would act. As for the OC's, well, I try to make them normal as possible. And by normal I mean not like me (hair trigger temper, major quirks).

On another note...I was thinking of devising a Silmarillion Mary-Sue litmus test. I know there are several for Lord of the Rings, and its true that most of the stuff applies to both books, but I think there should be one just for Silmarillion based stories.

[Encaitare]

That sounds cool; I don't know how many Silmarillion MS's there are, but it would be interesting to see. I'm pondering writing a Mary-Sue for an unlikely character, ie: Gimli, just in mockery of all the pretty-boy romances. It could be interesting.

[Morgul Queen]

If you ever see any Silm 'Sues, tell me, I'm Senior Assassin in the Silm Department of the PPC. That goes for a litmus test too....you don't want Agent Darkling on your back.

[Encaitare]

Well rest assured; out of curiosity I went to fanfiction.net and searched all the Silm romances, and it seems that there are no Mary-Sues. There is an Celegorm/OC romance that came close but the author changed it so she's not blatant anymore. Hurrah!

[Morgul Queen]

Something for which I'm infinately grateful, but it does make it hard to PPC. Ah well...we are working on a story right now that I may post here.

[Elennar Starfire]

I've taken an old story I wrote, which was embarrasingly 'Sue-ish, and am making it a parody. Basically I've kept the main plot intact, but we now see other characters plotting behind the 'Sue's back...it should be amusing.

[Encaitare]

Heh... sounds promising!

If you dig MS-parodies, check these out:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1499521/1/

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1680337/1/

[StarJewel]

Here's another good Sue Parody that had me laughing my bum off for quite some time. Forgive me, I have a rather twisted sense of humor...

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1738269/1http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1738269/1/ /

Just curious...who was the author of the near-Sue?

[Isowen]

I really don't like fanfiction because it's just some person trying to imitate a kind of "fantasy world" and they don't get it right! It spoils it for those (myself being one of them) who like to escape into middle-earth and indulge in the tales and stories that go with it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a nice character or a fantasy type story but it has to be believeable and if it is taken too far it becomes fanfiction and the main character becomes a Mary-sue

[Sapphire_Flame]

Encaitare, those parodies were uber-lofty. Thanks for posting them!

Abedithon le,

~ Saphy ~

[Encaitare]

In response to your comment, Isowen, you're right, people do get it wrong a lot and then I get mad. As a fanfiction writer, I make sure I do all my research beforehand, and if it's an alternate universe fic, it's clearly labeled as such. Still, I mostly I write canon anyway. Not all fics are Mary-Sue types, but you have to dig through all the lousy fics to find the good ones.

Saphy, glad you liked 'em! The Noble Platypus is just hysterical. If you want to read her monosyllabic version of LotR check out her LJ.

[StarJewel]

People getting stuff wrong is very annoying...but it can be a lot worse. I had one review (anon, of course) saying that Celegorm, not Maedhros, was the eldest son of Feanor. I think I just stared in utter shock at the screen for a few minutes, then started shrieking obscenities (which would ignite computers everywhere if I typed them here) at the screen. THen I calmed down and just deleted the offending "review".

Encaitare- thanks for the kind review. It's always cool finding other authors, especially ones who know what they are writing about.

[Isowen]

StarJewel, I just wanna say WOW! that is a great site and extremely fabulous stories

[Encaitare]

No prob, StarJewel! I look forward to reading the rest of the series! Hooray for great Silm writers!

Note to everyone: follow the URL on her sig and check out her fics... "Feanor's Children," especially.

[Lérië]

They sound disgusting. How hard would it be to kill one, I wonder?

[Aganzir]

So, there’s this girl. She’s tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she’s generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

God, what a Mary Sue.

I just described Batman.

(Courtesy of adventuresofcomicbookgirl.tumblr.com).

While I'm all in favour of well-written, round characters who have their faults, I'm a teeny bit tired of 'ideal' characters only being criticised if they're women.

[Nerwen]

Agan, I think this whole thread has been about fan-fiction Mary Sues- and a lot of the reason people complain about them is their habit of taking over from the actual characters, in a general "anything you can do, I can do better" way. They're more beautiful! More talented! They have bigger and better angst! They're the ones who really save the world!

When you start applying the same criteria to characters in original fiction... then, yes, it becomes problematic. Not that "canon Sues" don't exist, because of course they do, but the definition is often stretched so far that it becomes meaningless. Not only that, but some people definitely do seem to use a simple equation of "female protagonist = Mary Sue".

[Aganzir]

Yeah I got the impression, but I see no reason why serious literary criticism shouldn't be applied to fanfiction as well. I rarely read it myself but I'm quite aware of the rise and fall of the concept of Mary Sue over the years, and it baffles me because although there's talk of Gary Stu also, he doesn't seem to get nearly the same amount of hate.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yeah I got the impression, but I see no reason why serious literary criticism shouldn't be applied to fanfiction as well. I rarely read it myself but I'm quite aware of the rise and fall of the concept of Mary Sue over the years, and it baffles me because although there's talk of Gary Stu also, he doesn't seem to get nearly the same amount of hate.

There are fewer male OCs in fan fiction, probably because most of the writers are female, so Gary Stu doesn't show up nearly as much. Also, I think he's generally considered to be a subset of Mary, if you see what I mean. In fact, some people refer to characters of either sex as "Mary Sue".

[Faramir Jones]

Would people here consider a lot of the above film to just be bad fanfiction, which happened to end up on the big screen because of PJ having power and money?

If so, what do people think of the character of Tauriel being something like a Mary-Sue? She (along with Legolas) slaughters a lot of orcs, and is involved in a love triangle...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If so, what do people think of the character of Tauriel being something like a Mary-Sue? She (along with Legolas) slaughters a lot of orcs, and is involved in a love triangle...

They (Legolas and Tauriel) are the Neo and Trinity of Middle-earth, complete with an incredible use of weaponry and defying gravity. After all, Agent Smith is already in Rivendell.

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

I read a LOT of fanfiction. *don't judge me* The most annoying thing is finding fics that have a lot of ooc-ness. I also HATE OC's. However, once in a while, I come across a fic that's well-written and stays in character. Best feeling in the world.

Also, thought on female OCs, there aren't very many females in LOTR (Well, not in comparison to the male characters, anyway). So, when you get the OC's that aren't just the writers putting themselves in the story, it may be as an attempt to balance the characters' genders. After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

I read a LOT of fanfiction. *don't judge me* The most annoying thing is finding fics that have a lot of ooc-ness. I also HATE OC's. However, once in a while, I come across a fic that's well-written and stays in character. Best feeling in the world.

Also, thought on female OCs, there aren't very many females in LOTR (Well, not in comparison to the male characters, anyway). So, when you get the OC's that aren't just the writers putting themselves in the story, it may be as an attempt to balance the characters' genders. After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

Surely that's how Tolkien wrote it in the first place. Would some of those who make such 'sausagefest' criticisms have a similar complaint about another work containing mostly female characters, feeling that there should be more male ones included as a balancing act?

The best way to deal with this is to produce new works, such as Suzanne Collins' Hunger Games trilogy, with its heroine, Katniss Everdeen.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Would people here consider a lot of the above film to just be bad fanfiction, which happened to end up on the big screen because of PJ having power and money?

That view was prevalent with us when we left the cinema.

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

I'd say Goldberry is more prominent than Arwen, who is not the most complex character I've seen anyway.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Would some of those who make such 'sausagefest' criticisms have a similar complaint about another work containing mostly female characters, feeling that there should be more male ones included as a balancing act?

No because it's about representation and there is a vast imbalance between the numbers of male and female characters/leads in literature and films (Beighley & Smith, Flood etc). There is simply no need to bring more male characters into the business as they get the most attention anyway.