The Northern Kingdoms

[ArquenoSingollo72]

One of the most intriguing and frustrating pieces of the history of the Dunedain for me is the separation of Arnor
into the three sister realms of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Tolkien gave us very little information to go on,
i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories why or indeed why Tolkien was reticent on the subject of Arnor when we
have a relatively detailed history of Gondor from the same period.

[Inziladun]

Well, the "histories" given in the Appendices of Arnor and Gondor were supposedly obtained by the hobbit authors, and I would suspect that at the time of the War of the Ring much more was generally known about the history of Gondor than of Arnor. That's borne out, I think, by the fact that the Heirs of Elendil existed for so long unnoticed by most. Probably in the archives of Minas Tirith there were more details of the disunion of Arnor, and maybe at Fornost or Annúminas, but who had searched them?
Oh, Gandalf, Elrond, and likely Aragorn knew some more information about the matter, but it just doesn't appear to have been a major concern of the hobbits to go into detail about it.

As for why the sons of Eärendur began fighting, maybe it began out of a petty dispute about the way the kingdom was being run, and was escalated by personal grudges and jealousies. That's pretty general, I know, but RL kingdoms have been known to fall from such small beginnings.

[Nogrod]

An easy explanation suggests itself in here. Tolkien just never got into writing about the Northern Kingdoms as he had more interesting stuff to think and write about. I mean we know a lot about some places and people (elves, maiar...) but astonishingly little about others. I don't think the prof had any "secret reasons" for posterity to ponder upon why there was such little on some subjects - he just made what he had time for for those things he was more interested himself.

Had he lived for a hundred years we might have the "Histories of the Northern Kingdoms" as well to read?

And what others books could we read then?

"The Maiar: a full account of their birth, relations and deeds"
"The History of the Elves staying in Valinor"
"The fates of the Dwarves of Nogrod"
"Chronicle of the Haradrim"
"The Childhood of Tom Bombadill"
"Traditional Easterling Folklore"
"The secret uncloaked: Wings or Not? The Full History of the Balrogs"

Invent your own!

[Elmo]

The 'unexplained vistas' is a great part of Tolkien's attraction, if he explained every little bit of his world and its history, well, they'd be no need for this forum for one!

[Eruhen]

"A Detailed Account of the Wanderings and Mission of the Blue Wizards"
"The Journeys of the Entwives, as Recorded by the Elves of Lorien"
"An Atlas of Arda, from the Records of the Guild of Seafarers"

[Morthoron]

"Tom Bombadil and the First Squirrel Dropping: A Memoir"

[FlimFlamSam]

ArquenoSingollo72 spoke: [Tolkien gave us very little information to go on, i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories]
Sure.
I'll give you one, and its fairly simple too.

There are several instances given of twins being born in Middle-earth history.
Why not a case of triplets?

The only real information given about Amlaith is that he is credited as "eldest son".
You could theorize that triplets might all feel to have the same claim to the crown, and decided to split the kingdom 3-ways as an answer.

There ya go. Food for thought.

Curiously, Weathertop/Amon Sul is also similar in theory to the Three-farthing stone of the Shire (which had 4 farthings), who followed "The Rules" (of the King) of which the division of the realm was still in existence, and recognized as such, and known to hobbits at Bree c.1300, since the realm was not "reunited" until the days of Argeleb I (ruled 1349-1356), where Arthedain having claimed all the realm signified by the King taking a name with the prefix ar- to recognize this, still had Cardolan and Rhudaur in existence.

[ArquenoSingollo72]

Thank You FlimFlamSam, I've Been Studying The Subject For 25 Years And Triplets Never Entered My (Empty) Head. It Really Would Explain It All, I Read D. Martinez's Essays On Arnor But His Theories (Although Very Good) Never Entirely Convinced Me. On A Similar Subject I Read Somewhere That Atanatar Alcarin's Sons And Successors Narmacil & Calmacil Were Twins And Ruled Jointly, Thank You Again FlimFlamSam.

[FlimFlamSam]

Hey, no problem. Glad it helped.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by FlimFlamSam

There are several instances given of twins being born in Middle-earth history.
Why not a case of triplets?

The only real information given about Amlaith is that he is credited as "eldest son".
You could theorize that triplets might all feel to have the same claim to the crown, and decided to split the kingdom 3-ways as an answer.

I suppose that's possible. If so, however, it must have been an unprecedented event in the history of the Dúnedain, else one would think there would have been guidelines in place to deal with it, such as the first one out of the womb being considered "eldest".

Originally Posted by ArquenoSingollo72

On A Similar Subject I Read Somewhere That Atanatar Alcarin's Sons And Successors Narmacil & Calmacil Were Twins And Ruled Jointly, Thank You Again FlimFlamSam.

That does not appear to be the case. Appendix A to ROTK states that Narmacil I succeeded Atanatar. Being childless, Narmacil was in turn succeeded by his younger brother Calmacil.

[Galadriel55]

Even without having twins and triplets there could be disputes over the throne. Let's say there are three brothers, or cousins, or whatever - and each thinks that they are meant to be the King, if not by bloodline, then by their abilities. They think they are best fit to be King, they deserve to be King. Who cares if the "rightful heir" is your older brother when you can be a much better King than him?

I always imagined this to be the likeliest scenario.

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by ArquenoSingollo72

One of the most intriguing and frustrating pieces of the history of the Dunedain for me is the separation of Arnor into the three sister realms of Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Tolkien gave us very little information to go on, i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories why or indeed why Tolkien was reticent on the subject of Arnor when we have a relatively detailed history of Gondor from the same period.

I've pondered this a bit myself over the years. Of the event there are a couple possibilities.
One could just be a case of bad parenting. Since little is said of King Eärendur other than he split the kingdom between his sons. Another could be that Eärendur didn't like his eldest son Amlaith for any number of reasons and so split the kingdom amongst the sons.
As for Tolkien ot expanding on this or the other subjects mention, well, he did have a full time job as a Professor, and raised a family. I doubt he could have covered everything had he spent every waking moment writing in the world of Middle Earth

[Nerwen]

Re: the "triplets" hypothesis: it seems to me that if Tolkien had meant something as noteworthy as that to be the reason for the split, he would have said so.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by ArquenoSingollo72

i was wondering if anyone out there had their own theories why or indeed why Tolkien was reticent on the subject of Arnor when we
have a relatively detailed history of Gondor from the same period.

I think Gondor was the part of the kingdom that came more into play in the annals of Middle-earth. It was the last buffer against Mordor and for the most part was the more powerful of the 2 kingdoms. It's kings were longer lived and had the greater glory. The kingdom also never broke apart. However, the part of the family that was supposed to hold the high kingship did appear to make Arnor their homes, and Isildur was on his way home from Gondor when he got killed. I think maybe their histories would have followed basically the same arc except for some of the more noble houses, where in Gondor they started to become subject to mating with Middle Men, in Arnor and afterwards they tended to keep it in house. Of course few houses remained relatively pure in Gondor and even from the nobles of Dol Amroth one of the women, Morwen, married a Rohirrim and we have Thingol, his sister, and their 3 children. Eventually 2 of their descendants did marry back into the high houses in Gondor, Éomer with Imrahil's daughter, and his sister Éowyn into the Steward's House with Faramir.

Vying for the throne is not anything new among the Dúnedain as Soronto wanted to get the throne from his first cousin Ancalimë way back in early Númenor. Of course the famous one of grave effect in the Southern Kingdom involved Eldacar and Castamir.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I think maybe their histories would have followed basically the same arc except for some of the more noble houses, where in Gondor they started to become subject to mating with Middle Men, in Arnor and afterwards they tended to keep it in house. Of course few houses remained relatively pure in Gondor and even from the nobles of Dol Amroth one of the women, Morwen, married a Rohirrim and we have Thingol, his sister, and their 3 children. Eventually 2 of their descendants did marry back into the high houses in Gondor, Éomer with Imrahil's daughter, and his sister Éowyn into the Steward's House with Faramir.

It seems to me that the very blood-purity that set Arnor apart from Gondor, and ultimately resulted in the return of a king that would rule both kingdoms, was also what hastened its initial fall.
Gondor's intermingling with the lesser Men of Middle-earth gave it the manpower to stand as a bulwark against Mordor and its allies even after such calamities as the plague and the Kin-strife, whereas the Witch-king went north and simply wore down Arnor over time through attrition.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I suspect that the division of Arnor was inspired by the fate of many RW Germanic kingdoms, including Charlemagne's empire; it was a byproduct of the ultimately destructive old Teutonic custom of dividing an inheritance among the sons rather than adhering to primogeniture.

Of course Gondor was also weakened by civil war, but there it was a faction-fight over a single crown rather than armed squabbles between, say, Belfalas and Anorien.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I suspect that the division of Arnor was inspired by the fate of many RW Germanic kingdoms, including Charlemagne's empire; it was a byproduct of the ultimately destructive old Teutonic custom of dividing an inheritance among the sons rather than adhering to primogeniture.

Of course Gondor was also weakened by civil war, but there it was a faction-fight over a single crown rather than armed squabbles between, say, Belfalas and Anorien.

Arnor wasn't helped by the Witch-king's appearance, either. He apparently introduced evil men into Rhudaur, and that seems to have worsened the division.
It makes one wonder that if Gondor had had an external force actively fomenting dissension, could it have avoided the fate of its northern twin?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Arnor wasn't helped by the Witch-king's appearance, either. He apparently introduced evil men into Rhudaur, and that seems to have worsened the division.
It makes one wonder that if Gondor had had an external force actively fomenting dissension, could it have avoided the fate of its northern twin?

Gondor did- it is IMO pretty clear that Harad (under Sauron/Nazgul influence, and its ruling caste of Black Numenoreans) were backing Castamir in fomenting the Kinstrife.

Arnor broke up long before the Witch-King came north- in fact it was the rise of Angmar which forced the squabbling sub-kingdoms to unite (or at least Arthedain and Cardolan, Rhudaur being a lost cause)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Gondor did- it is IMO pretty clear that Harad (under Sauron/Nazgul influence, and its ruling caste of Black Numenoreans) were backing Castamir in fomenting the Kinstrife.

Appendix A states Castamir was "supported by the people of the coasts and of the great havens of Pelargir and Umbar".
After Castamir's defeat his sons sought refuge at Umbar, and then it seems they made their alliance with "enemies of Gondor".

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Arnor broke up long before the Witch-King came north- in fact it was the rise of Angmar which forced the squabbling sub-kingdoms to unite (or at least Arthedain and Cardolan, Rhudaur being a lost cause)

Certainly Arnor was already fractured at the WK's arrival , but it looks like he really hurt any chances of a unified Arnor when his vassals took power in Rhudaur. The Dúnedain were overwhelmed by superior numbers, it seems.

[Faramir Jones]

The Kin-strife in Gondor always struck me (and others, so I claim no credit for being the first to think this) as being possibly influenced by the English Wars of the Roses (1455-1485), fought between the Lancaster and York branches of the royal House of Plantagent for the crown of that country.

For this reason, I agree with William Cloud Hicklin, that this was 'a faction-fight over a single crown rather than armed squabbles between, say, Belfalas and Anorien'. Gondor at least survived as a single state, though reduced in power, while Arnor was fragmented and destroyed, surviving on maps only as a 'lost realm'.