Hobbit2 - Chapter 17 - The Clouds Burst - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-13-2012, 10:31 AM

This is the battle chapter! That means that an event which takes up only a few pages of the book will be spread out over a major part of the third movie...

A character trait that could be positive as steadiness can also be negative as stubbornness. We see that in Thorin, who says "My mind does not change with the rising and setting of a few suns." Unfortunately, we do see his mind changing within this chapter - he begins to think of ways to go back on his given word, not keeping his promise of trading the Arkenstone for gold and silver. Again the question arises: how much of that is inner character, how much is outward effect of the treasure? What might have happened had Gandalf not been there? I get the impression that he is the only character for whom Thorin retains a remnant of respect.

In contrast, the Elvenking now shows nobility, even more so than Bard: "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold."

The chapter title hails back to Chapter 15 - "The Gathering of the Clouds". Now the events that began there take place. Bilbo's unique mixture of courage and cowardice is endearingly human - he admits to taking the Arkenstone, even though he realizes that Thorin will be angry, but he uses the Ring to be invisible during battle. I love that humorous line by the narrator:

Quote:

It was a terrible battle. The most dreadful of all Bilbo's experiences, and the one which at the time he hated most - which is to say it was the one he was most proud of, and most fond of recalling long afterwards...

The first battle is interrupted before it begins, fortunately. I get the feeling of connection to the Silmarillion in the fighting between the "good" races. Tolkien said that this story began independently of his secondary world, but became a part of it at some time. When does that connection begin for you?

Thorin does show himself brave and strong in battle, turning the tide for a time.

The narrotor thinks that Gandalf was preparing some kind of magic to end the battle. Do you think he would have been capable of doing that? If so, why didn't he start earlier and prevent the deaths of many warriors on his side?

The eucatastrophe at the end of the chapter starts off with something very typical for Tolkien: the clouds part to show the light of sunset.

Since we are for the most part seeing events from Bilbo's point-of-view, the account of the battle ends when he is no longer conscious to report what happens.

Previous discussion.

jallanite · 11-17-2012, 08:08 PM

There seems to me to be little to say about this chapter.

It is clearly written and even contains some humour when Tolkien glosses what Dain really means by his polite and formal language in his message sent to Bard.

The battle has just broken out between Men and Elves on one side and Dain’s dwarves on the other, when Gandalf unexpectedly calls a halt because Bolg and his host of goblins, and wargs, and bats have come upon them. Suddenly there is peace between Men and Elves and Dwarves as they at once agree to join forces against the Goblins and Wargs.

Tolkien tells us, “it is plain that he [Gandalf] had not expected this sudden assault.” Indeed the coming just at this moment was fortunate, before there had been a chance for any killing by Elves and Men of Dwarves or by Dwarves of Elves and Men. That would have complicated matters.

Tolkien writes of Gandalf:

Gandalf too, I may say, was then, sitting on the ground as if in deep thought, preparing, I suppose, some last blast before the end.

Tolkien does not say whether “last blast” refers to previous blasts of fire in this same battle or whether Gandalf in this battle has been previously only fighting with his sword Glamdring. What Gandalf may have been planning is something like he planned to do earlier when under attack by the goblins:

The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped.

Just at that moment the Lord of the Eagles swept down from above, seized him in his talons, and was gone.

It is obvious enough why Gandalf had not earlier been so desperate as to attempt some such suicide blast against the Goblins at the Lonely Mountain.

11-17-2012, 08:08 PM	#2
jallanite Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 479	There seems to me to be little to say about this chapter. It is clearly written and even contains some humour when Tolkien glosses what Dain really means by his polite and formal language in his message sent to Bard. The battle has just broken out between Men and Elves on one side and Dain’s dwarves on the other, when Gandalf unexpectedly calls a halt because Bolg and his host of goblins, and wargs, and bats have come upon them. Suddenly there is peace between Men and Elves and Dwarves as they at once agree to join forces against the Goblins and Wargs. Tolkien tells us, “it is plain that he [Gandalf] had not expected this sudden assault.” Indeed the coming just at this moment was fortunate, before there had been a chance for any killing by Elves and Men of Dwarves or by Dwarves of Elves and Men. That would have complicated matters. Tolkien writes of Gandalf: Gandalf too, I may say, was then, sitting on the ground as if in deep thought, preparing, I suppose, some last blast before the end. Tolkien does not say whether “last blast” refers to previous blasts of fire in this same battle or whether Gandalf in this battle has been previously only fighting with his sword Glamdring. What Gandalf may have been planning is something like he planned to do earlier when under attack by the goblins: The sudden splendour flashed from his wand like lightning, as he got ready to spring down from on high right among the spears of the goblins. That would have been the end of him, though he would probably have killed many of them as he came hurtling down like a thunderbolt. But he never leaped. Just at that moment the Lord of the Eagles swept down from above, seized him in his talons, and was gone. It is obvious enough why Gandalf had not earlier been so desperate as to attempt some such suicide blast against the Goblins at the Lonely Mountain.