Population Explosion in Valinor?

[Galadriel]

Been a while, I know.

I was just thinking how so many Elves could be born in Valinor, with sufficient resources for them all to live as if they're in paradise? Seems rather illogical, considering that Elves are pretty much immortal.

Any thoughts?

[Mumriken]

So many beautiful girls around...not much to do...what else is there to do

[Galadriel55]

I know what you mean, that no one dies but new people are born and the population excedes the resources needed to sustain it. But there are a few factors that prevent or slow down this result.

Firstly, Aman is quite a resourceful land.

Secondly, Aman is large. I believe Elves only inhabited parts of the eastern shore. They went everywhere, I would assume, but their centre seems to be just in the middle. If this map is to be trusted, even Formenos, that is said to be farther north than most Elven settlements, is still in the centre area. The main settlements - Tol Eressea, Alqualonde, Tirion, Taniquetil, etc - are all grouped together, leaving vast lands to the north and the south.

Also, Elves have the ability to make the most out of the least when it comes to food. Take lembas as an example. Perhaps they did not all feed on lembas, but they would not go hungry.

Then the Elves (except for Feanor*) don't tend to have many children. When you have millenia to live you don't rush with marriage and children.

Moreover, there is the whole thing of most of the Noldor leaving to ME with Feanor and Fingolfin (and most Teleri slain in the process). This would clear some breathing space for a couple ages (and the Halls of Mandos are never too crowded). It's an issue when they start returning, but they don't all come back at once, but gradually. And quite a few returned via Mandos.

Last but not least, Elves do die, even in Valinor. And some don't come back *coughmirielcough*

*Well I guess his half-brothers could go there as well... And according to some Finwe had three sons too many...

[Belegorn]

Galadriel was born in Valinor before the Sun rose in ME and only had 3 grandchildren as far as the end of the 3rd Age, haha. Then again Feanor had 7 kids, but I don't think any of them had children. They were not quick or frequent reproducers from what I can tell.

[Mumriken]

I read your post a bit too fast, overpopulation I don't think is an issue among elves. Humans want to breed because we will die and to carry on our genes is important. For a being that is immortal I think there would be no inner urge to have sex at all. Actually I doubt elves got any pleasure out of sex at all. If sex was as nice as it is for us humans to the fictional elves there would be MANY more elves.

This is actually quite an interesting topic, since there is a possability that humans will find the key to unlock and reverse the aging mechanism. If we find out how to do this then we actually probably would have to castrate people to keep the populations in check. I don't think there is any pressures from the elven society to have sex or maybe it's not even comforting for an elf.

Elves do look very feminine so maybe the males haven't got as much testorone in them as humans do. Male elves tend to have long girly hair and actually look very female. So maybe they are like not sexually active or something....maybe bisexual or asexual?

[Boromir88]

One thing Tolkien was quite detailed about was Elven marriage and reproduction, believe it or not. Essentially, everything that's been said in this thread is the crux of the matter. Elves don't marry on a whim or out of passion. And once married they tend to have very few children and that's the end of it. I mean there's Feanor, of course, and Elrond has 3 kids, but this includes twins.

It's also a proven fact that Celeborn and Galadriel have been living in separate talans for millenia. I joke not.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I read your post a bit too fast, overpopulation I don't think is an issue among elves. Humans want to breed because we will die and to carry on our genes is important. For a being that is immortal I think there would be no inner urge to have sex at all. Actually I doubt elves got any pleasure out of sex at all. If sex was as nice as it is for us humans to the fictional elves there would be MANY more elves.

This is actually quite an interesting topic, since there is a possability that humans will find the key to unlock and reverse the aging mechanism. If we find out how to do this then we actually probably would have to castrate people to keep the populations in check. I don't think there is any pressures from the elven society to have sex or maybe it's not even comforting for an elf.

Elves do look very feminine so maybe the males haven't got as much testorone in them as humans do. Male elves tend to have long girly hair and actually look very female. So maybe they are like not sexually active or something....maybe bisexual or asexual?

Tolkien specifically states in Laws and Customs of the Eldar that elves like sex very much however their sexuality and fertility is a bit like a food product which will keep indefinitely unopened but once it is it has a limited life. However they remember "The Days of the Children" as ' the most merry in life' and of course Elvish memories are very vivid

They have few children because they put more of their own strength into their children than mortals and seem to conceive only when they want to (lucky them) and will avoid having children at times of war or other upheaval. As time went on and they peaked in their achievements and they started to diminish and they realised the burden of immortal life they had fewer children. It may well be that Arwen was the last of the Eldar to be born in Middle Earth.

Oh and Tolkien didnot envisage Elves as feminine - he went ballistic when he saw a picture of Legolas that was too girly- it is in the Letters but I can't find my copy at the moment

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Mumriken

I read your post a bit too fast, overpopulation I don't think is an issue among elves. Humans want to breed because we will die and to carry on our genes is important. For a being that is immortal I think there would be no inner urge to have sex at all. Actually I doubt elves got any pleasure out of sex at all. If sex was as nice as it is for us humans to the fictional elves there would be MANY more elves.

Actually, Tolkien mentions in HoME that sex and parenthood are things that Elves greatly enjoy, even if they have fewer sexual urges than humans.

Elves do look very feminine so maybe the males haven't got as much testorone in them as humans do. Male elves tend to have long girly hair and actually look very female. So maybe they are like not sexually active or something....maybe bisexual or asexual?

Where did you read that? I know they are depicted as being rather feminine in the movies and in fanart, but I don't think Tolkien ever talked about this.

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Firstly, Aman is quite a resourceful land.

Enough to sustain a near-immortal population for millions of years without running short?

Last but not least, Elves do die, even in Valinor. And some don't come back *coughmirielcough*

Yes, but rarely. I take it you don't like Míriel?

And according to some Finwe had three sons too many...

No, he just had an extra wife. Poor sod. Silly sod.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Yes, but rarely. I take it you don't like Míriel?

I like her alright. Actually. She's ok.

(And I have a tendency to like even those characters that most people condemn *coughturincough*)

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Where did you read that? I know they are depicted as being rather feminine in the movies and in fanart, but I don't think Tolkien ever talked about this.

He did say many times that they are graceful, beautiful, etc., - qualities that are more associated with femininity than masculinity. We know that at least some men had long hair (it is mentioned in The Sil that Fingon braided his). And he said that, with the exception of Cirdan, they do not grow beards.

But this is no indication that they are assexual or bisexual. They are like that because Elves were given the gift of beauty from Iluvatar.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

They are like that because Elves were given the gift of beauty from Iluvatar.

I believe Tolkien used the term "hawt".

[blantyr]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I believe Tolkien used the term "hawt".

Excuse me, but is "hawt" a Sindarin word, Quenya or Sylvan?

[Galadriel]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I like her alright. Actually. She's ok.

(And I have a tendency to like even those characters that most people condemn *coughturincough*)

I dislike the way people blame Míriel for the downfall of the Noldor - as if Finwë and Fëanor had no part to play in that!

He did say many times that they are graceful, beautiful, etc., - qualities that are more associated with femininity than masculinity. We know that at least some men had long hair (it is mentioned in The Sil that Fingon braided his). And he said that, with the exception of Cirdan, they do not grow beards.

Aegnor was said to have spiky hair that stuck out in all directions - or words to that extent. :P Though being graceful and beautiful does not necessarily mean being feminine.

But this is no indication that they are assexual or bisexual. They are like that because Elves were given the gift of beauty from Iluvatar.

Agreed.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I believe Tolkien used the term "hawt".

Originally Posted by blantyr

Excuse me, but is "hawt" a Sindarin word, Quenya or Sylvan?

I believe it was from the Hi Elfz of Roflmaonin.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Galadriel

Enough to sustain a near-immortal population for millions of years without running short?

For the most part Elves did not have very many children and after bearing children, "the desire [for generation] soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things... they have many other powers of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfuill." [MR, p. 210] It is also said that they do not have many children because, "in the begetting, and still more... bearing of children, greater share and strength of their being, in mind and body, goes forth than in the making of mortal children." [MR, p. 212] They are also not lustful, "their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast." [MR, P. 210] So I would say there are not really population booms even in times of peace when the tend to reproduce because by nature they lose interest in generation and turn to other things.

[blantyr]

Also, while Tolkien was very good at many aspects of world building, realistic population levels and recovery times from things like plagues were not his strength. There are a lot of threads on these forums where we discuss in sometimes ridiculous detail things that Tolkien thought out well. Population levels aren't one of the areas he cared about most.

Realistically, in a darwinistic sense, populations of any given species expand to fully utilize resources. If elves and wild men take up the hunter-gatherer ecological slot, one might expect as many of them as there were once Native Americans in North America (before the arrival of the Spaniards and their European plagues.) Tolkien loved lots of wilderness. To get the feel of lots of wild spaces, he kind of ignored Darwin. He was a linguist rather than a biologist.

Clearly true west of the Misty Mountains. We know less of Valinor.

Not that I worry about it. I'm not about to crusade for 'realistic fantasy'. The feeling of the books just wouldn't be the same if the Fellowship could sleep over in some village every night.