Native Language is not the same as Cradle Language - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 06-24-2012, 04:23 PM

I've been reading the Letters and I came across Tolkien talking about this.

Essentially, he's saying that one's native language isn't necessarily the one first learned from the cradle.

Has anyone experienced this?

As for me, having Dutch ancestry from all four grandparents, I have noticed that when someone starts singing in Dutch, and I understand what's being said, it affects me at a very deep, emotional level. I'm wondering if this might be part of what Tolkien had in mind?

Nogrod · 06-24-2012, 05:06 PM

I read about a study years and years ago where they said that when facing emotionally charged situations (like telling someone you love her/him for the first time or asking for forgiveness in a highly envolved and embarrassing situation) people who come from a dialect-background and have adopted a kind of "common speech" after moving to a big city will revert into their dialects - or if they can hold themselves back from it, they feel that making those statements in the common speech is emotianally wrong in comparison with the dialect's way of expressing it would be.

That is not discussing people who would otherwise talk their dialect and only force themselves to speak the commong speech, but of people who have already adapted themselves to the new language surroundings and speak and think fluently or automatically the common way in normal situations... it's just that those exceptional circumstances bring their initial dialect to the fore.

Inziladun · 06-24-2012, 05:34 PM

Personally I've long had an affinity for the German language. I like the syntax, and the way it sounds when spoken. So much so that I chose to study it for a couple of years in school.
I've never been to Germany, nor do I have any living relations who are native to the land, so I was never able to really explain it. I found out in the past few years that I do have ancestors about four generations ago who were born in Switzerland and Germany, so maybe there's something to what lmp is saying.

Along the lines of Nog's thoughts, I have noticed that myself. Over the years I've been told that I've (unconsciously) developed a "generic" American accent out of character for the region of my birth. In moments of high emotion though, I do hear the original accent re-emerge at times (again unconsciously).

Galadriel55 · 06-24-2012, 06:35 PM

That's a very interesting situation, Inzil. Really cool.

I noticed that, although I speak English fluently - even better than my native/cradle language (Russian) - I just can't speak it when I talk to Russian-speaking people. If I know someone speaks Russian, I just cannot speak English with them. And if by some circumstance I have to speak English to my family (for example, if we have non-Russian speaking guests), I speak with a horrible Russian accent - even though I don't have one when I talk to people at school.

MCRmyGirl4eva · 06-24-2012, 07:18 PM

Galadriel 55, I know what you're talking about. I have a friend at school who immigrated from Russia, and though she is perfectly fluent in English, (her parents don't speak a word of it, though) when she gets mad, it becomes hard to understand her accent.

Galadriel55 · 06-24-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

Galadriel 55, I know what you're talking about. I have a friend at school who immigrated from Russia, and though she is perfectly fluent in English, (her parents don't speak a word of it, though) when she gets mad, it becomes hard to understand her accent.

Hmm... When I get mad I can yell in any language, without accents. It's just when I speak to a Russian-speaking person that I can't utter a word in English without that accent creeping in, regardless of the conversation or emotions.

This doesn't really prove anything about native vs cradle languages, though.

Lalwendë · 06-25-2012, 01:50 PM

There's two interpretations as I see it, both picked up on here: that he is referring to languages you don't necessarily 'know'; and that he is also referring to how an individual may speak a language with a very particular dialect.

In my own experience, I fell down with French, the verbs are utterly alien and I'm unable to pronounce it without feeling like a prize prat, but I can muddle on with German quite happily, it's almost instinctive (though probably grammatically incorrect). I have put that down to it being much closer to English, and also easier for someone with a northern tongue to speak. Northerners speak with an open mouth and get their tongue around words (as though munching a meat & tater pie

), much as you do with German, whereas a lot of southerners talk 'far back' and swallow half the letters rather than speak them - this is more suited to pronouncing the Romance/Latin languages.

As for dialects and accents, I use both. I find I try to speak more clearly when dealing with people who speak RP, unless they annoy me, in which case my obstinate genes kick in and I slip back into broad Lancastrian

I have perfect understanding of some of the most difficult British accents but struggle with anyone who talks far back. English has hundreds of varieties, even within England. If this is what Tolkien means, i.e. the difference between standard English and regional English, then I know exactly what he means.

06-24-2012, 04:23 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Native Language is not the same as Cradle Language I've been reading the Letters and I came across Tolkien talking about this. Essentially, he's saying that one's native language isn't necessarily the one first learned from the cradle. Has anyone experienced this? As for me, having Dutch ancestry from all four grandparents, I have noticed that when someone starts singing in Dutch, and I understand what's being said, it affects me at a very deep, emotional level. I'm wondering if this might be part of what Tolkien had in mind?

06-24-2012, 05:06 PM	#2
Nogrod Flame of the Ainulindalë Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Wearing rat's coat, crowskin, crossed staves in a field behaving as the wind behaves Posts: 9,308	I read about a study years and years ago where they said that when facing emotionally charged situations (like telling someone you love her/him for the first time or asking for forgiveness in a highly envolved and embarrassing situation) people who come from a dialect-background and have adopted a kind of "common speech" after moving to a big city will revert into their dialects - or if they can hold themselves back from it, they feel that making those statements in the common speech is emotianally wrong in comparison with the dialect's way of expressing it would be. That is not discussing people who would otherwise talk their dialect and only force themselves to speak the commong speech, but of people who have already adapted themselves to the new language surroundings and speak and think fluently or automatically the common way in normal situations... it's just that those exceptional circumstances bring their initial dialect to the fore. __________________ Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet...

06-24-2012, 05:34 PM	#3
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	Personally I've long had an affinity for the German language. I like the syntax, and the way it sounds when spoken. So much so that I chose to study it for a couple of years in school. I've never been to Germany, nor do I have any living relations who are native to the land, so I was never able to really explain it. I found out in the past few years that I do have ancestors about four generations ago who were born in Switzerland and Germany, so maybe there's something to what lmp is saying. Along the lines of Nog's thoughts, I have noticed that myself. Over the years I've been told that I've (unconsciously) developed a "generic" American accent out of character for the region of my birth. In moments of high emotion though, I do hear the original accent re-emerge at times (again unconsciously). __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

06-24-2012, 06:35 PM	#4
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,380	That's a very interesting situation, Inzil. Really cool. I noticed that, although I speak English fluently - even better than my native/cradle language (Russian) - I just can't speak it when I talk to Russian-speaking people. If I know someone speaks Russian, I just cannot speak English with them. And if by some circumstance I have to speak English to my family (for example, if we have non-Russian speaking guests), I speak with a horrible Russian accent - even though I don't have one when I talk to people at school. __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

06-24-2012, 07:18 PM	#5
MCRmyGirl4eva Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: The Elvenking's Halls Posts: 425	Galadriel 55, I know what you're talking about. I have a friend at school who immigrated from Russia, and though she is perfectly fluent in English, (her parents don't speak a word of it, though) when she gets mad, it becomes hard to understand her accent. __________________ "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit..." "'Well, I'm back.' said Sam."

06-25-2012, 01:50 PM	#7
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	There's two interpretations as I see it, both picked up on here: that he is referring to languages you don't necessarily 'know'; and that he is also referring to how an individual may speak a language with a very particular dialect. In my own experience, I fell down with French, the verbs are utterly alien and I'm unable to pronounce it without feeling like a prize prat, but I can muddle on with German quite happily, it's almost instinctive (though probably grammatically incorrect). I have put that down to it being much closer to English, and also easier for someone with a northern tongue to speak. Northerners speak with an open mouth and get their tongue around words (as though munching a meat & tater pie ), much as you do with German, whereas a lot of southerners talk 'far back' and swallow half the letters rather than speak them - this is more suited to pronouncing the Romance/Latin languages. As for dialects and accents, I use both. I find I try to speak more clearly when dealing with people who speak RP, unless they annoy me, in which case my obstinate genes kick in and I slip back into broad Lancastrian I have perfect understanding of some of the most difficult British accents but struggle with anyone who talks far back. English has hundreds of varieties, even within England. If this is what Tolkien means, i.e. the difference between standard English and regional English, then I know exactly what he means. __________________ Gordon's alive!