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#1 | ||
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Just a curious little thing I stumbled on to share with you.
I was looking at the British Newspaper Archive and in some of the old papers from Wales and Cheshire there are such curious lines as: Quote:
The article gives the following explanation and etymology: Quote:
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#2 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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Good find, Lal! That may very possibly be the root of hobbits.
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#3 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
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Quote:
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#4 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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So a "hobbit" refers to weights and measures, eh? Maybe that's why a group of Hobbits is called a "gross".
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#5 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
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Quote:
![]() That is indeed an interesting find. Certainly not something I've ever heard before. You'd think T. would have said so though, if that origin had been a factor.
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#6 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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Brilliant, I say!
![]() But I think Inzil has a good point here - would Tolkien not mention the origin of the word somewhere if it had been the case? Then again, it sounds veery unlikely that it would be completely unrelated (especially given his knowledge). Unconscious influence would therefore seem the most logical (like that he had heard the word somewhere, forgot about it and later simply used it, thinking it was "his") - unless the Prof wanted this to be his own private secret, hidden from his readers and others? For that matter, this all makes the sentence "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit" much more dadaistic by origin than it would seem ![]()
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#7 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,992
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Quote:
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#8 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Tolkien did of course try to explain the etymology of the word hobbit within the Middle-earth context as being hol-bytla or 'hole builder'. But there's always been something of the real world about the word.
The use of the word hobbit or anything similar prior to Tolkien was scanty. And I'd not heard this new use before at all! There's the more well known possibility of it being linked to folklore terms such as hobgoblin/hobby oss/hobbledyhoy. And the word hobbit does occur in the Denham Tracts, which is a mid Victorian (and mad and rambling) collection of folklore, stories, lists, proverbs, etc. Again this is in connection with a British creature of folklore. It's likely that Tolkien did somehow read the word used in both ways and store it in the back of his mind to be brought out again subsconsciously on the day he was bored while marking exam papers and wrote that first line of The Hobbit down. He was later to be credited with creating the word - did he do that or just give it a new meaning? I find it satisfying that a hobbit is also a big measure of oats or barley ![]()
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#9 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
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I heard Shippey lecture on the origin of "hobbit" and other names as they originated in folklore - Lal is on the same track in her above post. However, the weight/measure source idea is fascinating! And who's to say it wasn't part of the "leafmould" of Tolkien's imagination...
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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#10 |
Dead Serious
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So barley isn't only available in pints, but in hobbits too?
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#11 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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Quote:
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#12 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Quote:
![]() I'm hoping to get over to Flintshire at some point soon (family history fieldtrip) and I might try it on some Welsh folks and see if they still use it. I might not try up in Cerrig-y-drudion though, they're all Sons of Glyndwr up there.
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#13 | |
Wight
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Settling down in Bree for the winter.
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![]() Quote:
The hobbit seems to be just the sort of unit of measurement for such a situation! ![]() |
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#14 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
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What is better than a bushel of oats?
-A hobbit of oats! What is better than a hobbit of oats? -Two hobbits of oats! Ahem. Yes, I know. Blantyr: furlongs per fortnight! Wow! ![]() Legate: I wish I could ask for something in hobbits. But the only grocery store that I frequent where they ask how much (weight) of something I need, is the local Russian store (where I'd ask for it in Russian)! Kinda defeats the purpose. But if ever I'm asked in English how much of something I need, referring to the weight, I'm gonna ask for a hobbit or two! Or, even funnier: I should ask for a half a hobbit. ![]() ![]()
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#15 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Considering a "hobbit" is a unit of weight, does that then make Fredegar Bolger the most valuable inhabitant of the Shire? That is, prior to his going on "The Lockholes Diet" (as advertised on ShireTV).
P.S. Hobbiton, as in a "ton of Hobbits".
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 03-09-2012 at 05:42 PM. |
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