‘Strains of Elvish Song and Voices', Bradford Lee Eden

[Faramir Jones]

An article well deserving reading is Bradford Lee Eden's ‘Strains of Elvish Song and Voices: Victorian Medievalism, Music and Tolkien’. It looks at the influence of English Victorian fiction on Tolkien's writing style, particularly in relation to 'musical-literary symbolism'. (p. 149)

Dr. Eden, while admitting 'many tangents and influences to follow' in looking at the musical influences on Tolkien's writing style, and giving examples, believes that 'a careful study' of his writings 'shows an extensive predilection and use of language similar to the Victorian writers'. These 'Victorian writers' are three in number: Alfred Lord Tennyson, Algernon Charles Swinburne, and William Morris. The author examines the writings of these 'three major English Victorian fictionists', and draws 'parallels between their use of musical-literary language and Tolkien's'. (p. 150)

The author sets the scene very well, in explaining what 'medievalism' meant in a Victorian context. It comprised:

a wide range of artistic, cultural and political pursuits. In religion, the Oxford Movement sought to bring back the ancient liturgical and musical traditions once practiced in English cathedrals prior to the Dissolution. In painting, the works of Dante Gabriel Rosetti and the Pre-Raphaelite Brotherhood, while short-lived, served to inspire styles of painting well into the twentieth century. In historiography, the writings and constitutional work of scholars such as J. R. Green, William Stubbs, and Edward Freeman looked back into the English past. In social and aesthetic criticism, the essays of Victorians such as John Ruskin, William Morris, Thomas Carlyle, A. W. Pugin, and Benjamin Disraeli were constant and politically motivated. Even in their physical environment, the Victorians sought to emulate the Middle Ages. Neo-Gothic law courts and town halls, cathedrals and churches, railway stations and public buildings, were built to contrast dramatically with factory smokestacks and commercial industry. Finally, in literature, Alfred Tennyson, Algernon Charles Swinburne, and William Morris sought to emulate ancient and medieval prose and poetry, as well as use Arthurian romances and themes, to transport their readers into a "heroic age" where things such as honor, virtue, and chivalry were the norm rather than the exception. It was this heritage into which Tolkien was born and in which he grew up; even the university environment of Oxford itself was reflective of the medieval culture from which it had first emerged. (pp. 150-151)

Tennyson, Swinburne and Morris were chosen by the author because they were the Victorian writers who 'best illustrate' the blending of medievalism with musico-literary symbolism. The three 'incorporated musical themes and motives throughout their fiction, especially in relation to their Victorian "resetting" of the medieval Arthurian and French epic tales'. (p. 152)

Tennyson is looked at as weaving musical ideas 'such as harmony and discord' into a number of the Arthurian stories, in particular Balin and Balan in his Idyls of the King. (pp. 152-154) I leave the reader to find out for himself or herself how this was said to be done.

Swinburne is given his due in this article; because while Tolkien fans may have heard of Morris as an influence on the Professor, and may have heard of Tennyson in a more general context, I don't believe that many have heard of Swinburne as an influence.

The author explains how Swinburne's poems 'are on tragic love and heroism, dominated by strife and frustrated love, by fickle men and women who are victims of a malevolent fate. Furthermore, he was a scholar in the truest sense; he revived medieval forms such as the rondel, the alba, and the ballad'. (p. 155) His version of the tale of Balin and Balan, published in 1896, is looked at in detail, with the point made that the 'use of nature, sea, and musical imagery is very reminiscent of Tolkien's early mythological writings'. (pp. 155-157) Again, I leave the reader to see if he or she agrees with this.

Morris, the 'ideal Victorian medievalist', whose influence on Victorian medievalism was 'profound and unique', also used poetry to depict Arthurian romances, again illustrated by examples. (pp. 157-158)

The author then looks at Tolkien's writings, in particular his earlier mythological and poetic ones, alleging that they are 'strongly influenced' by the musico-literary symbolism of the Victorian writers already mentioned, as well as by the musical predilection of his family, though it had not surfaced in him.

He looks at Tolkien's early published poetry and the musical allusions in them; the character of Tinfang Warble in The Book of Lost Tales; the early version of the character of Dairon the minstrel, originally intended to be the brother of Lúthien; the verse versions of the story of Beren and Lúthien in The Lays of Belariand and their ''powerful language'; the legend of the making of the Sun and Moon; and the character of Tuor, the earlier stories of him showing him to be the greatest musician among Men, due to his stay in Gondolin. (pp. 158-162)

What I particularly like here are Dr. Eden's recommendations that readers look at the early verse versions of Beren and Lúthien's story, and the early stories of Tuor, of which he says that the versions published in The Silmarillion do not do them justice; because they are something I very much endorse. (They are, sadly, a little spoilt by the mistake in confusing Tuor four times with his cousin Túrin.)

I agree completely with the conclusion here, that 'the Victorian predilection towards medievalism, and for musical symbolism in particular' had a 'strong influence' on Tolkien's writing style. This heritage 'helped to inspire Tolkien's compositional process, his musical roots helped to nurture his interest in philology and the sound of words, and his own love of both music and linguistics combined to produce one of the greatest mythologies ever written'. (pp. 162-163)

As well as this very readable overview of the influence of Victorian medievalism, the author has to be warmly commended for his championing of Swinburne, and of the earlier versions of Tolkien's stories of the Elder Days, which those who confine themselves to the 1977 version of The Silmarillion miss out on.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

... William Morris sought to emulate ancient and medieval prose and poetry, as well as use Arthurian romances and themes, to transport their readers into a "heroic age" where things such as honor, virtue, and chivalry were the norm rather than the exception. ...[/I] (pp. 150-151)

...Hear, hear!

...I haven't read Swinburne, and Tennyson only have only skimmed & picked. Time, time.

He looks at Tolkien's early published poetry and the musical allusions in them; the character of Tinfang Warble in The Book of Lost Tales; the early version of the character of Dairon the minstrel, originally intended to be the brother of Lúthien; the verse versions of the story of Beren and Lúthien in The Lays of Belariand and their ''powerful language'; the legend of the making of the Sun and Moon; and the character of Tuor, the earlier stories of him showing him to be the greatest musician among Men, due to his stay in Gondolin. (pp. 158-162)

I always found Tinfang Warble, and Dairon, and for that matter Maglor-- each of them, haunting.

What I particularly like here are Dr. Eden's recommendations that readers look at the early verse versions of Beren and Lúthien's story, and the early stories of Tuor, of which he says that the versions published in The Silmarillion do not do them justice; because they are something I very much endorse. (They are, sadly, a little spoilt by the mistake in confusing Tuor four times with his cousin Túrin.)

But I've missed out on Tuor-- I burnt out on HoME before I got to him. I shall have to investigate. Thanks for the heads up!

[Bêthberry]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to take a rather bleak view of this essay, for many reasons. For me, it fails utterly in proving that Tolkien's writings "were strongly influenced by the musico-literary symbolism of Victorian fictionists." There are many reasons for this.

I am initially put off by his stated aim: "This article will focus on the influence of English Victorian fiction on Tolkien's writing style" (p. 149). Eden throughout his essay refers to the works he quotes from Tennyson, Swinburne and Morris as "fiction" and they as "fictionists". These words denote prose fiction, not poetry. Dictionaries even name "novelist" as a synonym for "fictionists" and Tennyson was no novelist, as were Dickens, George Eliot, the Brontes, Trollope, etc. The confusion is particularly unfortunate because the period in question is noted particularly for its prose fiction, the high point in the tradition of realist novels. Instead, the works Eden quotes are poems and their authors are properly called poets. They are long poems which tell stories and perhaps that confuses him, but from time immemorial poetry was used to tell narrative. Look at Beowulf for example. It is a poem, not fiction. To confuse the Arthurian legends with the development of prose fiction is to do a great disservice to those legends even in their Victorian form. Perhaps Eden is not very familiar with narrative poems or perhaps he is trying to discuss these writers as fellow writers of fantasy, but that also is incorrect and inaccurate. So already I'm not trusting his use of language or his knowledge of the field.

(I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of his other essay on Tolkien, "The Music of the Spheres", for similarly sloppy diction. He calls Tolkien "a classicist and medievalist" when Tolkien was not a classicist. He spent his entire professional life and imaginative life defending northern literary traditions, not the Greek and Latin ones. He cannot properly be called a classicist; he knew those languages, but his training was as a medievalist, and particularly an Old English medievalist. It doesn't help that in this essay he calls Elrond's brother "Eros" ( ) (p. 189) either, although as a possible typo this is not as bad as confusing Turin and Tuor, which in a scholarly paper is reprehensible. Again, such confusion does not inspire my confidence in what he has to say.)

Some of you might call this concern for a precise and correctly used vocabulary a pedantic quibble, but as Tolkien has taught me, words do matter. My next point raises no such quibble because it is a basic tenet of literary source scholarship. Nowhere in this essay on "Strains of Elvish Song and Voices" does Eden provide evidence that Tolkien actually read Tennyson's Idylls or Swinburne or even Morris for that matter. If he wants to claim that their writing influenced Tolkien's style, he has to demonstrate great, consistent, and lasting familiarity with their works. The only shred of reference he provides is a footnote to Douglas A. Anderson's Tales Before Tolkien, which briefly identifies Tolkien's familiarity with Morris. That isn't good enough for an argument that is supposed to prove "J.R.R. Tolkien's writings, especially his early mythological and poetic endeavours, were strongly influenced by the musico-literary symbolism of Victorian fictionists" (p. 158-159).

A writer's influences are exceptionally tricky to get right. Tom Shippey said it better than I can in The Road to Middle-earth and so I will quote him here.

Originally Posted by Shippey, pp. 343-344

Tolkien was irritated all his life by modern attempts to rewrite or interpret old material, almost all of which he thought led to failures of tone and spirit. Wagner was the most obvious. . . . But what upset Tolkien was the fact that Wagner was working, at second-hand, from material which he knew first-hand. . . . Once again he saw difference where other people saw similarity. Wagner was one of several authors with whom Tolkien had a relationship of intimate dislike: Shakespeare, Spenser, George MacDonald, Hans Christian Andersen. All, he thought, had got something very important not quite right. It is especially necessary, then, for followers of Tolkien to pick out the true form from the heretical, and to avoid snatching at surface similarities.

That bolding is mine. It is a great shame that Eden refers merely to one small essay by Shippey in his references and not to Shippey's great work on Tolkien's method, because there he would have learnt that Tolkien's sources are original ones and not the second-hand mewlings of those who likely were not as familiar with the originals as Tolkien was. Not once in the entire essay does Eden acknowledge that Tolkien's greatest influence was Beowulf, not a medieval work but an Old English work.

What is required in addition to that kind of biographical information is concerted analysis of the various texts. Summary, description and mere quotation provide only "surface similarities." For example, let me give you links to several famous English poems which are not examples of Victorian medievalism but which are replete with musical imagery. And sea imagery. And if you want I can give you poems which discuss language which aren't Victorian medievalism either.

Keats, "Ode to a Nightingale" "Fled is that music: Do I wake or sleep?"

Shelley, "Ode to the West Wind" "Make me thy lyre, even as the forest is:/ Why if my leaves are falling like its own/ The tumult of thy mighty harmonies/ Will take from both a deep, autumnal tone

Wordsworth, "The Solitary Reaper" "The music in my heart I bore,/ Long after it was heard no more."

Thomas Gray, "Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard" All of life in this poem is sound, a "living lyre"

Adelaide Proctor, "A Lost Chord" "But I struck a chord of music/Like the sound of a great Amen"

Anne Bradstreet, "In Reference to Her Children" "But sing, my time so near is spent"

Philip Sydney, "You Gote-heard Gods" extensive development of musical references about love-sickness in Arcadia, not a medieval tradition

Harmony and disharmony are fairly basic themes and not defining content. It should be clear from this random smattering of poetry that musical imagery and allusions are not limited to Victorian medievalism. Nor is interest in language. Nor is sea imagery. etc. What is needed is analysis to consider what the musical references mean, how they function, how they fit into the philosophy of the poems. If only Eden had been able to supply the kind of analysis that John Hollander does in The Untuning of the Sky: Ideas of Music in English Poetry 1500-1700 he might have been able to discriminate better between what is a significant theme and what is simple figure of speech. Hollander's book is about how the great theme of cosmic unity was demythologised so that it became simply a decorative metaphor. Isolated quotations do not by themselves demonstrate cosmology. Exposition is needed.

And to go back to Shippey's argument about Tolkien's differences with Wagner: if Wagner failed to achieve the tone and spirit of the first hand materials Tolkien worked with, how much more different was Swinburne's work than some of those early heroic poems. To try to claim that Swinburne influenced Tolkien is both laughable and absurd. Swinburne was attempting to do something modern with his Arthurian legends and that isn't a perspective Tolkien had much sympathy with. I really wonder just how well Eden knows Tolkien.

And just so you know how curmudgeonly I am today, I will point out one more aspect where Eden got it not quite right.

Originally Posted by Eden

Almost all of Tolkien's early work is done in the context of tales or stories as related or even sung to a listener or listeners. What we are reading is the documentation of that listening experience, again another strong indication that Tolkien was trying to portray the way medieval audience would have heard and listened to the great stories of their past.

We can argue over what Eden means by medieval here, although in the context of his essay it seems to refer to post 1066 literature, the literature not of Old English but of Middle English, after the French invasion which Tolkien so deplored. Arthurian legends and the troubadour tradition did not have a patent on oral production. Here's one last poem which should demonstrate that Tolkien's original source was not medieval, and not Victorian, but Old English. I'll quote a modern translation and give a link to the Old English.

Caedmon's Hymn

Originally Posted by modern translation

Now let me praise the keeper of Heaven's kingdom,
the might of the Creator, and his thought,
the work of the Father of glory, how each of wonders
the Eternal Lord established in the beginning.
He first created for the sons of men
Heaven as a roof, the holy Creator,
then Middle-earth the keeper of mankind,
the Eternal Lord, afterwards made,
the earth for men, the Almighty Lord.


In the beginning Cædmon sang this poem.]

Yes, the name "Middle-earth" comes from a poem out of the Old English oral tradition--the first extant poem in the history of our language. Tolkien didn't need to ape the Victorian hit parade.

And just so you know I'm not all that mean, I think very highly of Gregory Martin's contribution, "Music, Myth, and Literary Depth in the 'Land ohne Musik' " And of many other of the contributions in this valuable and significant book. (Haven't read them all yet).

I wouldn't have written at length so despondently about Eden's essay had I not thought that it gave an entirely wrong and misleading view of Tolkien. I can easily and lightly overlook disagreements with my own point of view, with those of Shippey and other major scholars on Tolkien, but I can't ignore a profound misrepresentation of Tolkien's work.

[Pitchwife]

Unfortunately I can't comment on the essay itself, not having read the book (yet!), but I couldn't help applauding your post, Bêthberry. Not only did I find it highly enjoyable as a piece of spirited criticism, but as far as I can judge from my knowledge of Morris and Swinburne (not so much of Tennyson), you hit several nails on the head there.
One minor correction, though - Morris at least can quite reasonably be called a 'fictionist' (albeit not a typical realist Victiorian novelist), as beside his narrative poetry he delighted in writing 'prose romances', as he called them - tales of war, quests and adventure set in a half imaginary version of the Dark and Middle Ages. Tolkien himself acknowledged the influence of these romances on his own writings in several of his letters.
The influence can be traced from the floridly archaic prose-style of BoLT, which is pure Morris, to LotR, which shares several motives with Morris' The Roots of the Mountains' - most notably a love triangle involving a shieldmaiden who goes to war when her love is spurned! For further elaboration, see this site and that one.
Not to forget that Morris was just as enthusiastic about (and in his turn influenced by) Northern literature and poetry as Tolkien - he translated several Icelandish sagas into English and also attempted a (sadly quite unreadable) 'modern English' version of Beowulf.

[Bêthberry]

Thank you, Pitchwife. I was a bit worried that it would be too spirited but I'm glad you enjoyed it. And gladder that you have replied with such interesting content.

While you are right that Morris could be called a fictionist, my problem with that term was how Eden uses it generally to refer always to the three of Tennyson, Swinburne and Morris. He seems to want to yoke them together when they don't all fit that description, which was my point. I think it would be a better essay had the author differentiated a bit among his three Victorians. Also, the examples Eden supplies of Morris' writing are all from the poetry, so that also sits a bit awkwardly with the descriptor 'fictionist'. Probably too I would be happier with your 'prose romance', which I think is closer to what Morris was doing than 'fictionist.'

You might be surprised to know that you have in your reply here provided more evidence of Morris's influence on Tolkien than Eden supplies in the essay. The one little footnote he supplies on Anderson's Tales Before Tolkien doesn't even mention Morris (although Morris is the only one of these three presented in that book). I know of Morris' influence, but my point is about the method in this essay. At the very least there should be the quotes from the letters which your links supply. It seems that Eden thinks all he needs to do is quote some lines with similar themes and that proves influence. And, in fact, he quotes only from Tennyson, Swinburne and Tolkien in his opening and doesn't even mention Morris as one of his chosen three Victorian fictionists until the fourth paragraph.

Maybe mewlings applies most to Tennyson. I saw Morris' Kelmscott Chaucer when I was in Ottawa last month and it is a beautiful work of art. It is not a medieval work of course, because the style is different--no medieval book I've ever seen had that much illustration--but as a faithful rendition of beauty in book form it is stunning.

One of the points, too, that I wished Eden had considered is why the later accounts don't have the strong references to music which the earlier versions do. Was Tolkien working against the Victorian medievalism Eden tries to prove--or was that part of the effect of Christopher Tolkien's editing?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

One of the points, too, that I wished Eden had considered is why the later accounts don't have the strong references to music which the earlier versions do. Was Tolkien working against the Victorian medievalism Eden tries to prove--or was that part of the effect of Christopher Tolkien's editing?

I don't see how it could be the latter. Christopher Tolkien's approach throughout HoMe is scholarly and analytical; where the texts are subjected to editing the alterations are always minor, and whenever he does not give a text in full, he gives a precis of the abridged content. Indeed, if anything, the tendency in the later volumes is toward less abridgement than in the earlier ones.

I think, rather, it's a matter of Tolkien's taste and style changing. I do think that the Victorian mediavalists exerted a strong influence over much of Tolkien's early writing (in particular the Book of Lost Tales and associated poetry), but I would say that this influence began to wane as early as the 1920s and was more or less gone (except, perhaps, unconsciously and very indirectly) by the time of LotR.

This thread made me curious, so I looked for references to Morris, Swinburne, and Tennyson in Letters. There are two references to Morris. The first is from the very first letter in the collection, to Edith in October 1914:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Amongst other work I am trying to turn one of the stories [from the Kalevala] - which is really a very great story and most tragic - into a short story somewhat on the lines of Morris' romances with chunks of poetry in between . . .

This, of course, was the ultimate germ of the story of Turin. The other reference is from letter 226, of 31 December 1960, to Professor L.W. Forster. After Tolkien denies any influence of World War II upon the plot of LotR, he says:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

The Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme. They owe more to William Morris and his Huns and Romans, as in The Houses of the Wolfings or The Roots of the Mountains.

There are no references to Swinburne or Tennyson.

On the subject of Victorian Romanticism in Tolkien, though, one must also consider George MacDonald, to whom there are several references in Letters. Indeed, in a 1938 letter to the editor of the 'Observer', Tolkien says that The Hobbit is:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

derived from (previously digested) epic, mythology, and fairy-story - not, however, Victorian in authorship, as a rule to which George Macdonald is the chief exception.

In a letter from 7 September 1964 to Michael di Capua (a publisher), he wrote:

Originally Posted by Tolkien

I should like to write a short preface to a separate edition of The Golden Key. I am not as warm an admirer of George MacDonald as C.S. Lewis was; but I do think well of this story of his.

The other references to MacDonald relate to his use of the word 'goblin'.

I seem to recall Tolkien mentioning MacDonald and/or Morris in 'On Fairy Stories' as well, but I don't have it near at hand.

In any case, I would say that if one is to go by Tolkien's own comments on the subject, the only significant influences on him from among the Victorian Romanticists were Morris and MacDonald.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks, Aiwendil. I've misplaced my copy of the Letters and so couldn't check them.

There are no references to Morris that I could find in a quick perusal of OFS. There are, however, three comments about MacDonald.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, OFS

None the less this detail is plainly only a secondary use of an ancient and very widespread folk-lore notion, which does occur in fairy-stories; the notion that the life or strength of a man or creature may reside in some other place or thing; or ins ome part of th ebody (especially the heart) that can be detached and hidden in a bag, or under a stone, or in an egg. At one end of recorded folk-lore history this idea was used by George MacDonald in his fairy story The Giant's Heart, which derives this central motive (as well as many other details) from well-known traditional tales.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, OFS

The Magical, the fairy-story, may be used as a Mirour de l'Omme; and it may (but not so easily) be made a vehicle of Mystery. This is what George MacDonald attempted, achieving stories of power and beauty when he succeded, as in The Golden Key (which he called a fairy-tale): and even when he partly failed, as in Lilith (which he called a romance).

Originally Posted by Tolkien, OFS

Death is the theme that most inspired George MacDonald.

In footnote 4, Eden remarks:

Originally Posted by Eden, p. 152

MacDonald's influence on Tolkien's writings can be specifically attributed to Tolkien's concept of children's literature, and especially the production of The Hobbit, but I can find no direct influence of MacDonald on Tolkien's early mythological writings.

[Faramir Jones]

Some very interesting comments on this article.

Bêthberry, you have a good point about the presentation of the article, including the use of the term 'fictionist', which is misleading, hence perhaps my quoting it only once. I fully understand your 'not trusting his use of language or his knowledge of the field'.

However, I would defend his reference to Tolkien as 'a classicist'. Tolkien did study Latin and Classical Greek in school, and won a scholarship to study such languages in Exeter College. While he later transferred to English, winning a First Class Honours, he was appreciative of his classical training. In his Letters, he said, 'I was brought up in the Classics, and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer'. (Letters, Letter 213.)

In terms of your comments on the author's other essay, "The Music of the Spheres", I haven't read it, so won't comment on it.

While I agree completely that Tolkien took the term 'Middle-earth' from Ceadmon's Hymn, your term 'Victorian hit parade' is unfair on those three writers and their works. While Eden presented them badly, they have survived such bad presentations and worse...

I think that those of us who have commented so far agree about the significance of William Morris's influence on Tolkien, confirmed by the references in his Letters, quoted by Aiwendil. There are also the references to George McDonald, in particular in On Fairy Stories.

I have to say that while there are no references to Tennyson in the Letters, it was pointed out to me (so I can claim no credit!) that there are a lot of similarities between Bilbo's Last Song:

http://blue.carisenda.com/archives/j...last_song.html

and Tennyson's famous 1889 poem, Crossing the Bar, traditionally used as the last poem in collections of his work:

http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/2045-Alfr...ossing-the-Bar

I agree with you, Aiwendil, about Tolkien's style and taste changing, and your view that

the Victorian mediavalists exerted a strong influence over much of Tolkien's early writing (in particular the Book of Lost Tales and associated poetry), but I would say that this influence began to wane as early as the 1920s and was more or less gone (except, perhaps, unconsciously and very indirectly) by the time of LotR.

In one of his letters, Tolkien described his writing style in LotR. He gave a particular passage, and he then gave two different versions of it, one in medieval English and the other in modern English. He used this example to show that he aimed for a 'moderate or watered archaism'. (Letters, Letter 171)

My own view is that it was not just a matter of his changing style and taste; it was also a way of making it comprehensible to modern readers, who might otherwise dismiss it as a 'Victorian throwback' to Morris.

[Bêthberry]

Good to see some extensive disucssion going on on the Downs! We have Music in Middle-earth to thank for that!

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

However, I would defend his reference to Tolkien as 'a classicist'. Tolkien did study Latin and Classical Greek in school, and won a scholarship to study such languages in Exeter College. While he later transferred to English, winning a First Class Honours, he was appreciative of his classical training. In his Letters, he said, 'I was brought up in the Classics, and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer'. (Letters, Letter 213.)

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I said in my original post here, Tolkien did have training in Greek and Latin, but he left the classical world for English and philology. He was not an authority on the classics as he was in philology and medievalism and that is how Eden was attempting to portray Tolkien. It was, I suggest, evidence of imprecise vocabulary attempting to prove a point that could have more precisely and accurately been explained otherwise.

While I agree completely that Tolkien took the term 'Middle-earth' from Ceadmon's Hymn,

My reference to Caedmon was also intended to demonstrate that Tolkien's knowledge of the oral tradition was not limited to, in Eden's words, "the trouvere/troubadour tradition in medieval music" (p. 60). And that, "Almost all of Tolkien's early work is done in the context of tales or stories as related or even sung to a listener or listeners" ( Eden, p. 60) applies as well to Old English, a language and a literature Eden never mentions, although he does mention the Finnish Kalevala and Icelandic sagas.

your term 'Victorian hit parade' is unfair on those three writers and their works. While Eden presented them badly, they have survived such bad presentations and worse...

Oh, I think the Victorian poets are quite safe from my sarcasm, which was directed at Eden's approach and method.

I have to say that while there are no references to Tennyson in the Letters, it was pointed out to me (so I can claim no credit!) that there are a lot of similarities between Bilbo's Last Song:

http://blue.carisenda.com/archives/j...last_song.html

and Tennyson's famous 1889 poem, Crossing the Bar, traditionally used as the last poem in collections of his work:

http://oldpoetry.com/opoem/2045-Alfr...ossing-the-Bar

Bilbo's Last Song is not in my copy of LotR. Nor, I believe, has it ever been included in an edition of LotR. It was written some time after LotR was published and quite a few decades after the early writings which Eden quotes.

What would you say is going on here between Tolkien's and Tennyson's poem?

[Faramir Jones]

You're right about the extensive discussion, Bêthberry!

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. As I said in my original post here, Tolkien did have training in Greek and Latin, but he left the classical world for English and philology. He was not an authority on the classics as he was in philology and medievalism and that is how Eden was attempting to portray Tolkien. It was, I suggest, evidence of imprecise vocabulary attempting to prove a point that could have more precisely and accurately been explained otherwise.

I agree that he was not an authority on the classics as he was on philology and medievalism, nor would he ever have claimed to be or be seen as such by others. In that context, Eden was misleading.

I would, however, regard Tolkien as a classicist by upbringing, even if he did not practice as an expert. The influence of his classical upbringing can be seen in his works, such as in the portrayal of the Valar, who are as much inspired by the Graeco-Roman gods as by the Norse ones.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

My reference to Caedmon was also intended to demonstrate that Tolkien's knowledge of the oral tradition was not limited to, in Eden's words, "the trouvere/troubadour tradition in medieval music" (p. 60). And that, "Almost all of Tolkien's early work is done in the context of tales or stories as related or even sung to a listener or listeners" ( Eden, p. 60) applies as well to Old English, a language and a literature Eden never mentions, although he does mention the Finnish Kalevala and Icelandic sagas.

I fully agree that he left these things out.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Bilbo's Last Song is not in my copy of LotR. Nor, I believe, has it ever been included in an edition of LotR. It was written some time after LotR was published and quite a few decades after the early writings which Eden quotes.

What would you say is going on here between Tolkien's and Tennyson's poem?

While it is separate from LotR, it's obviously supposed to be a last poem by Bilbo before his departure from Middle-earth at the end of that book, presumably sung or recited at the Gray Havens.

According to Schull and Hammond's Reader's Guide, the poem was given by Tolkien to his secretary, Joy Hill, on 3 September 1970, and first published in 1974. Schull and Hammond say that the 'content and mood' of the poem 'call to mind' Tennyson's 'Crossing the Bar'. (Reader's Guide, p. 107) I therefore claim absolutely no credit for this comparison between the two poems, which has previously been made by many others.

In terms of what is going on here between the two poems, this is my opinion:

Similarities:

1. Both deal with a journey over a sea, with death involved. Tennyson is dealing with a journey after his death, while Bilbo is dealing with one that will take him to the Undying Lands, where he will shortly after die, due both to his great age, and such lands not being suitable for mortals to live in long.

2. Both are dealing with a journey through time and space. Tennyson speaks of travelling 'out our bourn [boundary] of Time and Place' (Line 13), while Bilbo, as we know, is going to the Undying Lands, which have been set apart from Arda since the end of the Second Age, saying 'lands there are to west of West,/ where night is quiet and sleep is rest'. (Lines 15-16)

2. The imagery of the Evening Star, whom we know is in Tolkien's universe Eärendil the Mariner, and of whom Bilbo wrote a poem in LotR, appears in both poems. Tennyson's poem starts with the line, 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo's finishing with 'I see the Star above my mast!', as well as mentioning in line 17 that he is 'Guided by the Lonely Star'.

3. The image of the sun setting, which starts both poems. Tennyson starts with 'Sunset and evening star', while Tolkien has Bilbo start with 'Day is ended, dim my eyes', and in line 6, he says, 'beyond the sunset leads my way'. In both poems, this is used as a metaphor for the narrators' lives drawing to an end. Tennyson also has a reference to twilight: 'Twilight and evening bell,/And after that the dark!' (Lines 9-10)

4. The image of the bar, which is in this context, according to The Oxford English Dictionary, 'A bank of sand, silt, etc., across the mouth of a river or harbour, which obstructs navigation'. Both poems speak of it as something important, both physical and metaphorical, to be crossed in their journeys. Tennyson's poem has crossing it as its title, hopes that 'there be no moaning of the bar,/When I put out to sea', (Lines 3-4) and ends with the hope that the narrator will 'see my Pilot [God] face to face/When I have crost the bar'. (Lines 15-16) Bilbo speaks of being guided by the Lonely Star 'beyond the utmost harbour-bar'. (Line 18)

5. The idea of the narrator being called to his voyage, both literal and metaphorical. Tennyson speaks of 'And one clear call for me!' (Line 2), while Bilbo speaks of 'Farewell, friends! I hear the call'. (Line 3)

6. Tennyson's poem was a late one, intended by him to appear as his last work, being included as such in collections of his poetry. (I myself have a copy of an 1899 edition of his poems, published seven years after his death, in which this is the case.)

Tolkien's poem was intended to be a last work by Bilbo before he left Middle-earth. It was also a late one by him, although in his case an adaptation of an earlier poem, Vestr um haf (Old Norse for 'West over Sea') from the 1920s or 1930s (Reader's Guide, p. 107), presumably written after LotR, but given to his secretary only a few years before his death, as already mentioned.

Differences:

Tennyson's poem has the narrator somewhat detached and passive, trying to comfort those he will leave behind: 'And may there be no sadness of farewell,/ When I embark;' (Lines 11-12) Bilbo, by contrast, is eager to be off on his voyage, with lines such as

Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall. (Lines 3-4)

Farewell, friends! The sails are set,
the wind is east, the moorings fret. (Lines 9-10)

Ship, my ship! I seek the West,
and fields and mountains ever blest. (Lines 21-22)

While there are differences between the two poems, I feel that they are far outweighed by the similarities.

[Pitchwife]

Having looked up Tennyson's poem (thanks for the link!), I'd like to add just one little bit to Faramir's comparison of the two poems:
Tennyson hopes to see my Pilot face to face, which I agree is obviously a reference to God; Bilbo goes to see the Valar - not God but the gods, the officers of the ship, so to speak, i.e. the closest thing to God that can be found within the confines of Arda; and we have every reason to assume he will move on to see the true Pilot (captain?) shortly after.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for your contribution, Pitchwife!

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Having looked up Tennyson's poem (thanks for the link!), I'd like to add just one little bit to Faramir's comparison of the two poems:

Tennyson hopes to see my Pilot face to face, which I agree is obviously a reference to God; Bilbo goes to see the Valar - not God but the gods, the officers of the ship, so to speak, i.e. the closest thing to God that can be found within the confines of Arda; and we have every reason to assume he will move on to see the true Pilot (captain?) shortly after.

I had thought about that when writing my previous entry, but wasn't sure about including it. Tolkien deliberately leaves out the question as to what happens to mortals in his universe after they die, with the exception of the Dwarves. Of Men and Hobbits, we know nothing. Do they see Eru Ilúvatar after death? We do not know.

He did talk in a draft of a letter of about September 1963 on what awaited Frodo and Bilbo at the end of their voyage:

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. (Cf III 252 lines 12 to 21 and 263 lines 1-2.) But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessiveness....As for reward for his part, it is difficult to feel that his life would be complete without an experience of 'pure Elvishness', and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full the fragments of which had so delighted him. (Letters, Letter 246, p. 328)

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for the elaboration of similarities, Faramir and Pitch. This relationship is, I think, substantially different from the one that Eden implied in Tolkien's early writings and for that reason I think the question is quite a bit different than one of unacknowledged debt and influence which he tried to argue.

I see a few other differences, such as those of metre and rhyme scheme. "Bilbo's Last Song" is much more like Tennyson's "Blow, bugle, blow", particularly with its sonority and alliteration. The themes of sea and death and melancolic longing are common in Victorian poetry-- such as, as I'm sure you know, Arnold's"Dover Beach" and even Swinburne's 'In the Bay", which uses the 'harbour-bar' image a little over ten years before Tennyson does. However, what I think is the most importance difference between the two poems, in spite of their similarities, is their provenance.

Right you are that "Crossing the Bar" is traditionally set at the end of Tennyson's collected poems. Hallam Tennyson in his Memoir reported his father's last request, which has been honoured down through the years. However, Tolkien's "Bilbo's Last Lay" (the original title of this lyric) was written under a very different context. As Tennyson Sr.'s request makes clear, he conceived of the poem as a conclusion to his entire life's work and a fitting end. He must have assumed the audience that existed for all his work. With Tolkien, however, we have a very different situation. He wrote the poem for one person, his secretary, and she kept the poem private until after his death. I don't know what prompted the writing--was it to thank her for years of work with him, was it at her request for a final song from Bilbo, did they discuss Tennyson's final lyric? Certainly Tolkien never asked his editors to include it in future editions of LotR and he never asked his son Christopher to make it public as his final work. Did Tolkien ask that the poem be kept private, at least until after his death? More contextual knowledge of the poem would be helpful.

You see, I think "Bilbo's Last Lay" is an elaborate literary joke on Tolkien's part. He had a lively and even wicked sense of humour, as, I think, most professional medievalists do. Even his title, "Lay" is full of punnery and was ultimately rejected because it's association with medieval lays would not be widely appreciated. It is very important that the speaker in Tennyson's poem would appear to be the poet himself whereas Tolkien's poem clearly identifies Bilbo. This is not Tolkien's last poem, but Bilbo's. And Bilbo, while a wonderful character, is clearly at times the repository of some affectionate humour over his scribblings and his inopportune habit of falling asleep. Perhaps one could suggest that Tolkien was here providing a comment on Tennyson's role as the expositor of elven lore for a new age.

You see, I doubt very much that Tolkien had much admiration for Tennyson. This could explain the absence of any comment on him, as much as simple lack of knowledge of the elder poet's work. I would love to know what is in Tolkien's Arthurian romance, the one which Humphrey Carpenter and Verlyn Flieger mention as uncompleted so I could compare it with Tennyson's Idylls. But I am not the only one who finds Tennyson's Arthurian romance a disappointment. According to Roger Sale, in his review ("Tennyson as a Great Poet") of John D. Rosenberg's The Fall of Camelot, quite a few others have as well. Henry James apparently thought Tennyson's Arthur was "rather a prig" and Swinburne thought he was reduced "to the level of a wittol, Guinevere to the level of a woman of intrigue, and Lancelot to the level of a 'co-respondent' ". Hopkins offered "Charades from the Middle Ages" as a title while Swinburne, again, suggested, "Idylls of the Prince Consort" (p. 443). That's quite a cat fight, to borrow a comparison from the American figure skater Johnny Weir, as most of these writers have fairly prestigious credentials in medievalism themselves. Was it simply professional jealousy? What I would like to do is suggest where Tolkien thought Tennyson didn't 'get it quite right' as a way of explaining why "Bilbo's Last Song" could be an elaborate literary joke rather than evidence of deep and abiding influence.

To do that, I'd like to present some of Tolkien's thoughts on translating Old English into modern English. Faramir, you have thoughtfully referred to Tolkien's Letter 171 which offers some explanation of what Tolkien thought a modern translation should be. I'd like to expand on that.

Tolkien's "On Translating Beowulf" presents some of the cruxes in translating Old English. (His thought is applicable to the language generally and not limited to the great poem. ) For example, how is one to translate recurring words. The word eacen can variously be translated as 'stalwart', 'broad', 'huge' and 'mighty'. These are all somewhat acceptable to Tolkien, except that in using all these variations, we lose the

Originally Posted by Tolkien, p. 50, The Monster and the Critics and Other Essays

hint that in poetry this word preserved a special connotation. Originally it means not 'large' but 'enlarged', and in all instances may imply not merely size and strength, but an addition [italics Tolkien's] of power, beyond the natural, whether it applied to the superhuman thirtyfold strength possessed by Beowulf (in this Christian poem it is his special gift from God), or to the mysterious magical powers of the giant's sword and the dragon's hoard imposed by runes and curses. . . . This is only a casual example of the kind of difficulty and interest revealed by the language of Old English verse . . . For many Old English poetical words there are (naturally) no precise modern equivalents of the same scope and tone: they come down to us bearing echoes of ancient days beyond the shadowy borders of Northern history.

Another problem is how to convey the sense of poetic and archaic words--that is, words which for the time of Beowulfs creation were intended to convey the verbal affect of archaism. Tolkien provides multiple examples of situations where both "colloquialism and false modernity" will fail to provide "the understanding of the original which it awakes" (p. 53)--I have bolded this because I think it shows the central germ of Tolkien's feeling about translation. What is to be aimed for is something which helps render as similarly as possible the feelings of the original.

Originally Posted by Tolkien, p. 55

But, whether you regret it or not, you will misrepresent the first and most salient characteristic of the style and flavour of the author, if in translating Beowulf, you deliberately eschew the traditional literary and poetic diction which we now possess in favour of the current and trivial. In any case a self-conscious, and often silly, laughter comes too easily to us to be tempted in this way. The things we are dealing with here are serious, moving, and full of 'high sentence'--if we have the patience and solidity to endure them for a while. We are being at once wisely aware of our own frivolity and just to the solemn temper of the original, if we avoid 'hitting' and 'whacking' and prefer 'striking' and 'smiting'; 'talk' and 'chat' and prefer 'speech'and 'discourse'. . . .

Note that Tolkien also counsels against the opposite fault of using words merely because they are old or obsolete. Diction must be, for him, words which "remain in literary use, especially in the verse, among educated people" (p. 55). So he's not calling for "antiquarian sentiment' or 'philological knowingness' (p. 56).

If we look at Tennyson's translation of an Old English poem and compare it with a contemporary literal translation, we can see some of these problems. Here's a link which provides the original Old English, Tennyson's version, a literal translation, and a line by line translation of The Battle of Brunnaburh.

I have difficulty getting passed Tennyson's Bracelet bestower, when the original is ring-giver to men. On what grounds would Tennyson forgo the culturally significant "ring" for the Old French word "bracelet'? Alliteration for the sake of alliteration destroys meaning. Why would he give us "lifelong glory in battle" rather than be faithful to the original warrior concept of "won eternal glory in battle"? To say nothing about how horribly the metre is mangled, which makes the translation full of derision. It makes a mockery of the Old English alliterative verse in its attempt to recapture it. No wonder W.H. Auden--a student of Tolkien's--said that Tennyson "had the finest ear, perhaps, of any English poet; he was also undoubtedly the stupidest" (Sale, p. 450). (Ohhh, I was right to quote Johnny Weir, this is a cat fight.) And to judge Tennyson's inability to awaken the ancient heroic ideal, consider the last verse.

Originally Posted by Tennyson, final stanza

Never had huger
Slaughter of heroes
Slain by the sword-edge--
Such as old writers
Have writ of in histories--
Hapt in this isle hither
Saxon and Angle from
Over the broad billow
Broke into Britain with
Haughty war-workers who
Harried the Welshman, when
Earls that were lured by the
Hungy of glory gat
Hold of the land.

Originally Posted by literal translation

Never was there more slaughter
on this island, never yet as many
people killed before this
with sword's edge: never according to those who tell us
from books, old wisemen,
since from the east Angles and Saxons came up
over the broad sea. Britain they sought,
Proud war-smiths who overcame the Welsh,
glorious warriors they took hold of the land.

I'll take "Proud war-smiths" as more fitting of the ancient ideal than "Haughty war-workers." And I'll sure pass on 'gat' and 'Hapt'. None of this is "moving, serious, and of high sentence."

In fairness of course, this translation is not Tennyson's finest poem. But I think it demonstrates more than adequately how not to translate Old English and how not to be a medievalist according to Tolkien. It's risible and as such I think Tolkien rather slyly and with some ingenuity found a way to parody Tennyson's final lyric.

[Faramir Jones]

I was pleasantly surprised to read your last entry, Bêthberry, which gave me a lot to think about!

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I see a few other differences, such as those of metre and rhyme scheme. "Bilbo's Last Song" is much more like Tennyson's "Blow, bugle, blow", particularly with its sonority and alliteration. The themes of sea and death and melancolic longing are common in Victorian poetry-- such as, as I'm sure you know, Arnold's"Dover Beach" and even Swinburne's 'In the Bay", which uses the 'harbour-bar' image a little over ten years before Tennyson does.

I agree that the metre and rhyme are different.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

However, what I think is the most important difference between the two poems, in spite of their similarities, is their provenance.

Right you are that "Crossing the Bar" is traditionally set at the end of Tennyson's collected poems. Hallam Tennyson in his Memoir reported his father's last request, which has been honoured down through the years. However, Tolkien's "Bilbo's Last Lay" (the original title of this lyric) was written under a very different context. As Tennyson Sr.'s request makes clear, he conceived of the poem as a conclusion to his entire life's work and a fitting end. He must have assumed the audience that existed for all his work. With Tolkien, however, we have a very different situation. He wrote the poem for one person, his secretary, and she kept the poem private until after his death. I don't know what prompted the writing--was it to thank her for years of work with him, was it at her request for a final song from Bilbo, did they discuss Tennyson's final lyric? Certainly Tolkien never asked his editors to include it in future editions of LotR and he never asked his son Christopher to make it public as his final work. Did Tolkien ask that the poem be kept private, at least until after his death? More contextual knowledge of the poem would be helpful.

It would certainly be helpful to know more about the background to Tolkien's poem, if such information can be found. I agree completely that Tennyson conceived of his poem as 'a conclusion to his entire life's work and a fitting end. He must have assumed the audience that existed for all his work'; and we don't have any similar evidence to arrive at a similar conclusion regarding Tolkien and his poem.

I was very interested in what you had to say here:

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

You see, I think "Bilbo's Last Lay" is an elaborate literary joke on Tolkien's part. He had a lively and even wicked sense of humour, as, I think, most professional medievalists do. Even his title, "Lay" is full of punnery and was ultimately rejected because it's association with medieval lays would not be widely appreciated. It is very important that the speaker in Tennyson's poem would appear to be the poet himself whereas Tolkien's poem clearly identifies Bilbo. This is not Tolkien's last poem, but Bilbo's. And Bilbo, while a wonderful character, is clearly at times the repository of some affectionate humour over his scribblings and his inopportune habit of falling asleep. Perhaps one could suggest that Tolkien was here providing a comment on Tennyson's role as the expositor of elven lore for a new age.

You see, I doubt very much that Tolkien had much admiration for Tennyson. This could explain the absence of any comment on him, as much as simple lack of knowledge of the elder poet's work. I would love to know what is in Tolkien's Arthurian romance, the one which Humphrey Carpenter and Verlyn Flieger mention as uncompleted so I could compare it with Tennyson's Idylls. But I am not the only one who finds Tennyson's Arthurian romance a disappointment. According to Roger Sale, in his review ("Tennyson as a Great Poet") of John D. Rosenberg's The Fall of Camelot, quite a few others have as well. Henry James apparently thought Tennyson's Arthur was "rather a prig" and Swinburne thought he was reduced "to the level of a wittol, Guinevere to the level of a woman of intrigue, and Lancelot to the level of a 'co-respondent' ". Hopkins offered "Charades from the Middle Ages" as a title while Swinburne, again, suggested, "Idylls of the Prince Consort" (p. 443). That's quite a cat fight, to borrow a comparison from the American figure skater Johnny Weir, as most of these writers have fairly prestigious credentials in medievalism themselves. Was it simply professional jealousy? What I would like to do is suggest where Tolkien thought Tennyson didn't 'get it quite right' as a way of explaining why "Bilbo's Last Song" could be an elaborate literary joke rather than evidence of deep and abiding influence.
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If we look at Tennyson's translation of an Old English poem and compare it with a contemporary literal translation, we can see some of these problems. Here's a link which provides the original Old English, Tennyson's version, a literal translation, and a line by line translation of The Battle of Brunnaburh.

In fairness of course, this translation is not Tennyson's finest poem. But I think it demonstrates more than adequately how not to translate Old English and how not to be a medievalist according to Tolkien. It's risible and as such I think Tolkien rather slyly and with some ingenuity found a way to parody Tennyson's final lyric.

I'm in agreement that Tolkien had fun with 'Crossing the Bar', just as he had fun with the nursery rhyme 'Hey Diddle Diddle', inventing its 'ancestor' in the shape of 'The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late'. But I don't see any evidence that a reason for having such fun in this case was due to a dislike of Tennyson and his works. I don't rule your theory out as a possibility; it's just there is no evidence for it.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Tolkien's poem was intended to be a last work by Bilbo before he left Middle-earth. It was also a late one by him, although in his case an adaptation of an earlier poem, Vestr um haf (Old Norse for 'West over Sea') from the 1920s or 1930s ....

If we know this to be true (do we?) then shouldn't we be discussing Vestr Um Haf? I'm impressed by the Tennyson poem, to be sure, but if the professor said he started with Vestr Um Haf (did he say that?) perhaps this discussion should go there.

Tolkien was pretty generous about what might have influenced him but that's different than a statement that something DID influence him.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I'm in agreement that Tolkien had fun with 'Crossing the Bar', just as he had fun with the nursery rhyme 'Hey Diddle Diddle', inventing its 'ancestor' in the shape of 'The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late'. But I don't see any evidence that a reason for having such fun in this case was due to a dislike of Tennyson and his works. I don't rule your theory out as a possibility; it's just there is no evidence for it.

Having written a long post in reply this afternoon, only to have the Downs crash when I attempted to post it, I have now remembered the wisdom of Word.

The evidence lies in the exposition, which is an acceptable method of scholarly argument, particularly in the absence of historical references such as that provided by letters. My main point of contention in my first post is that Eden’s essay lacks a solid method for establishing the possibility of influence. He failed to provide either historical evidence or discussion about the nature and type and method of establishing relationship; his essay was not much more than quotation, summary and description. There are ways of exploring influence and conceiving of the “retextualisation” of earlier sources even in the absence of historical data. Were I to write a scholarly article, I would elaborate further on how Tennyson’s translation of The Battle of Brunanburh fails to satisfy Tolkien’s criteria for successful translation. There are a great many more points in Tolkien’s preface on translating Beowulf which could be applied to Tennyson’s poem. The deductions would be my own, but they would be based on Tolkien’s criteria and so my method would be legitimate. For instance, Tennyson’s poem was in fact based on his son Hallam’s prose translation of the Old English poem (first published in The Contemporary Review November, 1876) and some of the more egregious errors are Hallam’s rather than Tennyson’s. (See here for comparison: Comparison of Tennyson's translation with Hallam's. But Tennyson repeated them. He was clearly not working with original sources and this was Tolkien’s frustration with Wagner in particular, as well as other writers of more generally good renown. It is also interesting that the summary of the events which Tennyson provided didn't in fact present what is now understood to be the facts about the poem's provenance and significance.

Tennyson’s translation first appeared in his Ballads and Other Poems in 1880 and was very popular. I’m sure that students, as is the wont of students, would grasp at any opportunity for a crib and I’m equally sure that their teachers were wise to their ways. I would happily make another trek to Oxford to explore curricula and journals and diaries of the days as there is a good possibility of finding evidence there that Tolkien would have directly known the translation.

What I would also do, in this theoretical paper of mine, is consider how Tolkien handled other literary influences. Here particularly I would point out the importance of George MacDonald. If I remember correctly (my Tolkien books were put in storage during home renovations and unfortunately I haven’t been able to find their boxes) Tolkien began to write a preface to a new edition of The Golden Key but he became more and more convinced that MacDonald got it wrong. And so Tolkien abandoned the preface to explore how to get it—faerie--right in Smith of Wootton Major. Again, I would be establishing Tolkien’s habits of writing. I’ve forgotten who now, but one critic I’ve read even suggested that Nokes somehow represented MacDonald himself. I’ll have to track down that reference and see if it’s really worth using.

I might also use your example, with appropriate acknowledgement of course, of Tolkien’s “The Man in the Moon”.

Of course, the nature of parody is tricky. It can be a sign of respect or a sign of ridicule, humourous or satirical. What I am doing really is using Shippey’s explanation of Tolkien’s point about the integrity of original sources and the failures of tone and spirit in some modern writers and by analogy applying it to a possible relationship between Tennyson and Tolkien over “Bilbo’s Last Lay” and “Crossing the Bar”. (By the way, apparently Joy Hill owns the poem and not the Estate.) And my argument would be as open to debate as Shippey's argument about Smith is, from Flieger's point of view. But it would be an acceptable method.

And to return this to my original point. I didn't begin with a desire to denigrate Tennyson or Swinburne or Morris. In fact, I quoted his contemporaries’ opinions about the Idylls to suggest that there were many different points of view about how to recontextualise medieval material—there was no one way and a great deal of difference amongst the writers who were handling the material. I began with deep frustration that a scholar had such a poor grasp of method and material. There have been several very good studies of the influence of Victorian medievalism on Tolkien that aren't limited by a limited presentation of music and sea imagery. And in particular I didn't like Eden's suggestion that Tolkien was not quite upfront about his influences--"whether he chose to admit it or not" (p. 162). The study of influences on writers is a far, far more complex subject than Eden gives thought to. It's also one deserving of a great deal of care and respect. Didn’t Tolkien himself say something to the effect that the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of older literature are extremely complex?

EDIT: Helen, I've had no time to follow up your gracious note about Vestr Um Haf. Sorry.

[mark12_30]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The study of influences on writers is a far, far more complex subject than Eden gives thought to. It's also one deserving of a great deal of care and respect. Didn’t Tolkien himself say something to the effect that the ways in which a story-germ uses the soil of older literature are extremely complex?

Off of a quotes page from a Google search ; I am entirely ignorant of the particular source:

"One writes such a story not out of the leaves of trees still to be observed, nor by means of botany and soil-science; but it grows like a seed in the dark out of the leaf-mould of mind: out of all that has been seen or thought or read, that has long ago been forgotten, descending into the deeps. No doubt there is much selection, as with a gardener: what one throws on one's personal compost-heap; and my mould is evidently made largely of linguistic matter." ~On the creation of LotR

[Faramir Jones]

Bêthberry and mark, you're quite right about the difficulties of trying to discern the possible literary influences on a writer, in this case on Tolkien. As you showed, mark, the latter himself made it clear of his own awareness that a lot of such influences are unconscious.

I'm sure we agree that any person writing about such possible influences needs to exercise humility, making clear that there is a large element of speculation involved. Words like 'might', 'may' and 'possible' need to be used a lot. I myself have tried to say this in my own writings. Whether I have succeeded or not is another matter.

I came across something interesting on this subject by the writer George MacDonald Fraser (1925-2008), in his book The Light's on at Signpost (2002), which dealt with his scriptwriting days in Hollywood, but which also included other matters. He said that he was working for the newspaper The Glasgow Herald in the 1960s; and there was a debate in the canteen on whether the orcs in LotR were the same as the goblins in The Hobbit. He wrote to Tolkien, and received a reply:

Yes, orcs and goblins were identical, and he added the fascinating information that they had been inspired by his childhood reading of The Princess and the Goblin and The Princess and Curdie, eerie spellbinders which had helped to freshen my own infant nightmares. Their author was a Scottish minister named George MacDonald. (George MacDonald Fraser, The Light's on at Signpost: Memoirs of the movies, among other matters, (London: Harper Collins Publishers, 2003), p. 53.)

Fraser, after saying that this George MacDonald was related to him through his paternal grandmother, discussed the difficulty of discerning other inspirations, giving as an example what had been written on himself:

His [Tolkien's] orcs and goblins are George MacDonald's, but as to other inspirations, who knows? It is a common mistake to think that one can spot with certainly the wellsprings of an author's imagination, as I know only too well, having had a critic state flatly that I was plainly much influenced by Conrad - of whom I had not read a single word at that time. (Ibid., pp. 53-54.)

That said, I think that what you, Bêthberry, wrote in your last post is worthy of publication; and I hope to see it in print in the future.

[Bêthberry]

You are too kind, Faramir. Really, the pleasure was having a good discussion here amongst we Downers and I thank you and Helen, and Pitchwife and Aiwendil, for that.

And interesting stuff from George MacDonald Fraser. Thanks for posting that.

[Bêthberry]

There's something else I might add to that hypothetical paper of mine, that demonstrates something of how Tolkien thought of Tennyson.

Originally Posted by The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son

It is the heroism of obedience and love not of pride or wilfulness that is the most heroic and the most moving; from Wiglaf under his kinsman's shield, to Beorhtwold at Maldon, down to Balaclava, even if it is enshrined in verse no better than The Charge of the Light Brigade.

I read this some years ago and quite forgot about this detail, so I must thank Squatter for recently reminding me of it.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by mark12_30

If we know this to be true (do we?) then shouldn't we be discussing Vestr Um Haf? I'm impressed by the Tennyson poem, to be sure, but if the professor said he started with Vestr Um Haf (did he say that?) perhaps this discussion should go there.

Vestr Um Haf is unpublished, Helen. According to Scull & Hammond, it was written in the 1920s or 1930s long before Tolkien wrote the conclusion to LotR and only adapted much later. ( The J.R.R. Tolkien Companion and Guide, I, 110, 802,857; II, 107.