![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Anyone with an interest in how Elvish music in Tolkien’s works, in particular in The Lord of the Rings, is interpreted by modern musicians, will find ‘Elven Music in Our Times’ by Mira Sommer a good read. She tries to answer these questions:
But how do composers today imagine such music? How do modern musicians interpret the culture of the Elves? And how great is the part which the Elvish languages play in the timbre and tone of the music? (Music, p. 255) Ms. Sommer’s overview is divided into two main parts. First, those musicians who directly interpret Elvish music, divided into two sections, one dealing with Peter Jackson’s The Lord of the Rings films, and the other looking at ‘Tolkien’s Elves in General Musical Interpretation’. (pp. 255-277) Second are what she calls ‘More “Elvish Musicians”’, where she looks at musicians who are inspired by Elvish music, but who do not directly interpret it. (pp. 277-280) Looking at the Jackson films, the author starts with The Fellowship of the Ring, which contains the largest number of interpretations of Elvish music of the three. At the start, I was interested to read that the ‘Elvish Lothlόrien Theme’ as spoken by Galadriel was a rendering of text translated into Sindarian, then performed in Quenya. (pp. 255-256) Also particularly interesting to read was that the ‘Song of Lúthien’ was translated into Sindarian, and with an ‘a capella melody…composed and performed by Viggo Mortensen’. (p. 258) Good for him! ![]() Other bits worth particular reading are those dealing with ‘Aragorn and Arwen’s Theme’, a song both written and sung by Enya, (pp. 260-261) and ‘Caras Galadhon and Galadriel’s Mirror’, the latter discussing the choral singing of the elves of Lothlόrien: 'The songs are really reminiscent of the measured notes of Gregorian choirs and have a meditative, almost intoxicating effect in conjunction with the instruments'. (pp. 262-264) I was intrigued to read that the instruments used in the above included the ‘monochord’, the ‘Ney flute from Egypt’ and the ‘sarangi’ from classic Indian music. (p. 264) In The Two Towers, I liked learning that in ‘Arwen’s Fate/The Grace of the Valar’ a UK singer of South Indian background, Sheila Chandra, was used. Not so great was the reminder that it was the background to a silly piece where Elrond persuades Arwen to leave Middle-earth, telling her that it she remains with Aragorn, he will die and she will be left alone. (pp. 266-267) As if she hadn’t known this, and had made her decision a long time ago! ![]() Finishing with The Return of the King, I also liked learning that Renée Fleming was the one who sang ‘Twilight and Shadow/The Grace of Undόmiel’, but was unfortunately reminded of the nonsense of that part of the film, involving Arwen leaving Middle-earth, then having a vision of her son, changing her mind and returning to her father to tell him of her final decision to be with Aragorn. (p. 268) Overall, I enjoyed reading about the production of the Elvish music in the Jackson films, music which I like listening to very much; but some of the pieces reminded me of parts of the films that were badly adapted, which the quality of the music does not conceal, like beautiful wrapping paper concealing an ugly present. In looking at ‘Tolkien’s Elves in General Musical Interpretation’, the author looks at the work of The Tolkien Ensemble, the group that made the first complete musical interpretation of all the poems and songs in LotR. (pp. 270-277) I’ll let the reader find out what she says, but will say that it’s a good introduction to people who don’t know them and their work. In dealing with musicians who find Elvish music an inspiration, though they do not directly interpret it, the author gives us an overview of some such people and bands: David Arkenstone, Enya, Jessica Butler, Qntal, Nightwish, Enam, and The Fellowship, admitting that her selection is limited. (pp. 277-280) She reaches this conclusion regarding the interpretation of Elvish music by modern musicians: In spite of all the different interpretations, the motifs share a basic simplicity and musical tone: they are all spherical, transcendental, and mystical. They seem to long for countries far away and appear as a deeply moving story. (p. 280) I agree with this conclusion, with the qualification that the musicians discussed aim for the above mentioned goals. Whether they have succeeded or not in this is a matter for the individual listener. That said, I warmly recommend this article as a very interesting overview of how Elvish music has been interpreted by musicians in the last number of years. ![]() Last edited by Faramir Jones; 03-06-2010 at 10:01 AM. Reason: I needed to delete something |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
Faramir,
I find this thread intriguing. From my youth (which was in the 1960s and early 70s) I listened for elements of Elvishness in music, and was deeply affected when I found them. I have found it in places ranging from Tchaikovsky (parts of the ballets) to The Moody Blues (Tuesday Afternoon.). Only last month, I found some in PHil Wickham's worship music. One never quite knows when it might pop up. That said, when the movies came out and people began publishing "Middle Earth"-style music, I had my checkbook ready. I have collected a fair amount and reviewed some of it here online as well as trying to instill some participation and later on some plain discussion Tolkien would have enjoyed some of the music that has come out, I think. And that is usually one of my measurements that I use. If the professor would have left the room, can we call it elvish? But that might bring us back around to "Canonicity". Interesting thread topic.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 04-10-2010 at 11:35 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Mark, thanks for the links to the materials you mentioned, which I enjoyed reading very much.
![]() I suppose all of us have our own definitions of 'Elvishness' that might overlap a lot, but are very rarely going to be exactly the same; so it's interesting for me to read where people have found what they feel are 'elements of Elvishness in music'. I agree that Tolkien would have enjoyed 'some of the music that has come out'. The problem, as you correctly pointed out, is that any decision we make about what music he might have enjoyed is affected by our personal biases. ![]() Do you think that Tolkien's sanctioning of Donald Swan's interpretation of his works made it easier for later interpretations to be accepted by some fans? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
![]() Quote:
(Considering Daeron and Tinfang Warble, why so few flutes? Lingalad rules!) Had I not heard piano played by Donald Swan, and blessed by The Prof, would I have accepted "The Leaves Were Long, the Grass Was Green" by the Tolkien Ensemble? The piano works beautifully there. (And then once I wonder what growing up in Rivendell might have done to a young ranger's voice, Tolkien Ensemble's 'Voice of Aragorn' works better and better. ) Do I owe that to Swan? Perhaps. A very intriguing thought.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Mark, I particularly liked what you said here:
Quote:
In terms of what Aragorn's upbringing in Rivendell might have done to his voice, that's an intriguing line of enquiry. ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
The Leaves Were Long, the Grass Was Green: Song of Beren And Luthien
Berit Johansen There are samples for the rest of the album as well. Including The Ent and the Ent-Wife. Unfortunately I can't find a link for Lebennin. Song of Gondor
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 04-14-2010 at 04:53 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Mark, thanks for those links!
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
|
This sure is something different and it might be something of just my imagination, but I have always thought this to be the real elvish music.
Rule of thumb concerning the link: at 0.40 it becomes really elvish (with the wind instrument coming in, a clarinet I presume), at about 1.40 it gets some air and finally from 2.10 onwards it starts to be what I think it should be - as elvish music. ![]() I know this can be debated, but that's my idea of elvish music... making everything in Middle-Earth just Irish/ wanna-be Celtic or medieval catholic might go well with what we presume the prof. was as as a child of his times. But looking at his knowledge of different cultures I can't but think that we make a diservice to his legacy by limiting our imagination to just the Western tradition. Had Tolkien heard of this...
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,991
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
That's an interesting idea and link, Nogrod. (Celtic I don't think need be limited to elven music, but could also apply to the The Shire, especially with folk dances.)
I think I can catch a haunting sense of reverie in the music, but I'd be interested in hearing what it is in Brahem's music that makes you think of elven music. ![]()
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | ||
Flame of the Ainulindalë
|
Quote:
![]() ![]() Quote:
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
You gave an interesting answer to Bêthberry's query here, Nogrod:
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]()
I don't have anything to add, but in case you are interested, here is a recent and related thread:
Elves and Music ![]()
__________________
Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 | |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
|
Quote:
But if the title is "Elven music in our times" I think we can look at it not only as a subject about which contemporary artists would the prof. have approved of, but also as how we could think of the elven music today with our wider perspectives. If Mira Sommer is of the mind that Nightwish is okay then she is... but I'd bet the prof. would have chosen Anouar Brahem over Nightwish in an instant. ![]() So where is the difference?
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,991
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
I find this discussion fascinating!
Quote:
Hobbit music is best respresented by the festivities surrounding Bilbo's birthday party, with its "songs, dances, music, games, and, of course, food and drink" ("A Long Expected Party"). It's all a bit racuous, with "Noises of trumpets and horns, pipes and flutes, and other musical instruments. . . . Hundreds of musical crackers had been pulled." And in competition with Bilbo's speech there is: Quote:
![]() Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So I would think that Tolkien had in mind contemplative forms of music for elves. We might all have differing ideas of what contemplative music is, but it would be interesting to consider both western and eastern traditions. (After all, Sanskrit would not be an unknown language to philologists.)
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Shade with a Blade
|
There's different kinds of Celtic music, too. The fast-paced Irish/Scottish folk music that we'd associate with Hobbits is really pretty recent stuff - but the older Celtic music, like sean nos and violin piobaireachd, has a different tone entirely, and could be seen as Elvish. They're much less...light, I guess? More formal, more deliberate, with a greater sense of age and significance. To me, piobaireachd and sean nos feel more ancient and elemental than other Celtic music, which is how I would imagine Elvish music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQy-WjdQPv4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8paj2hQHIo
__________________
Stories and songs. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,991
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Thanks for posting those links, Gwathagor. They are beautiful and I enjoyed them very much.
Yet they don't work for me. I've done too much Scottish dancing and listened to too much music from Cape Breton (Nova Scotia) for me to be able to identify that with the elves. It is still primarily, to me, Celtic, the music of the race of men. I need something altogether more otherworldly, without the historical cultural signifiers, which is why I like Norgrod's suggestion of something beyond our usual musical repetoire. There's a tradition of healing music in Japan, using the Zen bamboo flute (the Shakuhachi), which also to me sounds like something the elves would get into. But I don't imagine many Downers would second me on that. ![]()
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Shade with a Blade
|
Since Elves are ultimately earth-bound creatures, perhaps otherworldly music doesn't fit them? Unless you just mean otherworldly in contrast to historical. (In which case I agree with you.)
__________________
Stories and songs. Last edited by Gwathagor; 04-18-2010 at 10:30 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,991
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Sorry for the delay replying, Gwathagor; I was away most of yesterday.
Quote:
![]() But perhaps more to my point are the characteristics of elves which make them more in tune with ethereal world, even while in Middle-earth. As Bilbo says to Frodo of Rivendell, "Time doesn't seem to pass here; it just is" ("Many Meetings"). And their ability to inform both a material body and a spiritual essence. Frodo, striken as he is after Weathertop, sees that spiritual essence of Glorfindel in "Flight to the Ford". Quote:
Quote:
![]()
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
It might be interesting for people to see the two main definitions given by The Oxford English Dictionary of 'otherworldly'.
First is 'Devoted to spiritual matters or life; ascetic, spiritual; (more generally) unworldly. Also as n. [noun] (with the): ascetic, spiritual, or unworldly people as a class (with pl. concord)'. Second is 'Of or relating to a world other than the actual or material; esp. of or relating to a mystical or fantasy world'. Do people think that we include the Elves in Tolkien's world under both definitions? Every race there (including Man) is part of a fantasy world, created out of an author's imagination; so all come under the second definition. But is it that Elves are supposed to live for so very long (though they are not immortal), and have gone where Man cannot follow, hanging around with the Valar, that make us also think of them, above all other races, as coming under the first definition? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Flame of the Ainulindalë
|
I'd say the elves and the West do present themselves as the "other reality" in contrast to humans of the ME and thus I'd say they are more of the first definition. But I'm not sure if the word "unworldly" can be used in relation to them. The West is an odd mid-stop between "the world of men" and "the world beyond"...
Let me offer another possible POV for organising one's thoughts about the elven music. In the Pythagorean / Boëthian tradition from Antiquity we have three different kinds of "music" (spheres of it, notions of it, mode of being of it) which I'd guess the prof. was aware of with his classical education. The pure music was the "music of the spheres", the non-audible cosmic music of the reality itself (musica mundana by Boëthius). Then there was the music of a living being (well a "learned human" in this real world of ours) in structural harmony with the universe and its principles (musica humana for Boëthius). The third one is the music we can hear as the music we normally think of as music; sounds and rhythms to be perceived, and to be played with instruments/human voice (musica instrumentalis for B). The first one is quite easy to identify with the music of the Ainur and the third with the music we people make (or any other ME creatures?). But the question becomes, is there the middle one? Is it the music of the Valar and Maiar (and elves?) in the West; eg. not the primordial music of the universe only Eru could organise (even if it included the Valar) but the music the purer forms of existence could have produced in the World and to teach to the elves there in the West? And thus the elven music in the ME would resound something of that purer form of music being at the same time in a way compromised by getting thus far away from the original (both being further developed by "mere elves" and being farther away from the source)? Needs to think. The thought came faster than I could think it through... ![]()
__________________
Upon the hearth the fire is red Beneath the roof there is a bed; But not yet weary are our feet... |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Shade with a Blade
|
I think we've got two kinds of "otherwordly" here, the first being simply part of Elvish nature and the second having its ultimate source in Aman. Elves like Thranduil, Legolas, and Thingol display the first kind, elves like Galadriel, Glorfindel, and Elrond display the second kind.
For the first kind, "hypernatural" or "extranatural" might be better terms than "otherworldly." It is, in its essence, earthy. Celtic-ish music would suit this well. The second kind, is literally otherwordly, and appears in Elves who have had contact with the Valar/Maiar or who wield artifacts imbued with their power. This group would doubtless produce the sorts of ethereal music you describe, Bethberry.
__________________
Stories and songs. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 | |||
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
Posts: 3,329
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
I also hear something Elvish in Chinese/Japanese compositions for the pipa, like e.g Dance music for a festive evening in Rivendell A tone poem commemorating the heroic struggles of the Noldor in the First Age (titles invented by me ![]() What I find interesting about this kind of music is that one the one hand, it's very disciplined and rigorously elegant, while on the other hand (at least to European ears) it does have a weird, 'otherworldly' (...not going to discuss that in mid-sentence...) charm and, in some pieces (esp. the last one I linked) a wild, fairish abandon that really rocks. Very Elvish on both sides of the scale, as far as I'm concerned. Gwath, I think I totally see where you're coming from. Keeping in tune with the idea of Middle-earth as calque on medieval/Dark Age Europe, it certainly makes sense to look for parallels to Elven music within the European musical tradition, whether Celtic or Gregorian. But it just occurred to me that the culture of Middle-earth as described in the book is probably just as much a translation from the (imaginary) original as the English of the narrative representing the Westron of the 'real' Red Book. As The Prof himself said in LotR, Appendix F: Quote:
__________________
Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,991
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
![]() ![]() ![]() Quote:
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
Lúthien also danced before Morgoth's throne, that being a very public occasion.
And do people not remember the elves dancing and singing in The Hobbit? ![]() As for Bêthberry calling Lúthien a 'teenage' elf, words fail me. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
![]() Quote:
Mmmmm. On Midsummer's Eve. By the riverside. Under the stars.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
LUTHIEN:
But wandering in the summer in the woods of Neldoreth he came upon Lúthien, daughter of Thingol and Melian, at a time of evening under moonrise, as she danced upon the unfading grass in the glades beside Esgalduin. There came a time near dawn on the eve of spring, and Lúthien danced upon a green hill; and suddenly she began to sing. Keen, heart-piercing was her song as the song of the lark that rises from the gates of night and pours its voice among the dying stars, seeing the sun behind the walls of the world; and the song of Lúthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet had passed. ELROND'S Elves in The Hobbit:" "Sing all ye joyful, now sing all together? The wind's in the free-top, the wind's in the heather; The stars are in blossom, the moon is in flower, And bright are the windows of Night in her tower. Dance all ye joyful, now dance all together! Soft is the grass, and let foot be like feather! The river is silver, the shadows are fleeting; Merry is May-time, and merry our meeting." ..."A little sleep does a great cure in the house of Elrond," said he; "but I will take all the cure I can get. A second good night, fair friends!" And with that he went back to bed and slept till late morning. Weariness fell from him soon in that house, and he had many a merry jest and dance, early and late, with the elves of the valley."
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 05-23-2010 at 02:17 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Stormdancer of Doom
|
...and --- does Smith count? I can't help but feel he does-- The Queen of Faerie, in Smith of Wootten Major, danced with her elves in the woods; and Smith danced with them.
__________________
...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,991
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Quote:
![]() 'course, one has to wonder if elven women reached their sexual prime in late adolescence or, like women of the race of men, in middle age--however that designation may be determined for elves? Could this fullness, if reached in harmony, be the middle state that Nogrod spoke of, Quote:
![]()
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 | |
Fair and Cold
|
![]() Quote:
![]()
__________________
~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~ |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
![]() ![]() |
![]()
To be fair, Tolkien admitted that the singing of the Elves when Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves came to Rivendell was 'pretty fair nonsense I daresay you think it'.
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |