Fanfiction: the definition of Mary-Sue

[Niphredil Baggins]

Someone somewhere asked what is a Mary-Sue. I’ll respond the best I can:

A Mary-Sue can be a fanfiction story of any fandom.

Typical characteristics in a Mary-Sue:

-the hero is a girl
-she has an exotic name
-her eyes, hair or both are an unusual colour
-the writer’s favourite character falls in love with her
-she has all the good characteristics the writer would like to have herself (usually the writer is a girl)
-she has none or very few flaws in her personality: she is kind to everyone, brave, beautiful, sickeningly sweet…
-she often has immense supernatural abilities
-everything in the story is centred around her
-she makes other characters behave uncharacteristically
-she often sings (but not all singers are Mary-Sues)

A Mary-Sue is the writer’s daydream and a reader’s nightmare: the reader can’t identify with Miss Perfect, but wants someone human, regardless of species.

A ‘Lord of the Rings’ Mary-Sue could be like this.

Her name is Caralinda. She is a High School student in California. Her eyes are bright green, her hair is flaming red. One day she inherits from her grandmother a diamond ring. When she puts it in her finger, she enters Middle-Earth. There she joins the Fellowship of the Ring. Legolas falls in love with her and starts composing love poetry. Aragorn is jealous, and the friendship of Gimli and Legolas is jeopardised because of her. She gets captured by orcs and rescued by Boromir. Frodo opens his heart’s troubles to her. No-one thinks any evil thoughts about her, because she is so adorable and sincere. She can prophesy the future and offers her visions in riddle-songs. In the end her actions save Frodo and it is she who destroys the ring.

Give your thoughts and definitions, and I claim no copyright to the story-idea above; however, if you steal it, please keep your story away from good fanfiction sites. I stole no ideas fom no particular writer, if you recognise your character, no fault of mine.


<font size=1 color=339966>[Title edited by moderator]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 4:33 AM December 29, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

[Lomelinde]

Wow. You sum up about half to three-quarters of all the Tolkien fanfic out there perfectly. Is it some innate supernatural power, or just skill? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Nice.

I enjoy reading Tolkien fanfics (when I have time) but I try to avoid this particular category like the plague. Alas, it is becoming too difficult nowadays. Sigh...

[Nimrodel]

Mary Sue

[ June 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nimrodel ]

[Losthuniel]

ah, Mary -Sues. my nemisis. *ducks random bits of masonry people have throw at her* well you knew i'd show up sometime? But i have promised (on the Mary-Sue Litmus test thread) to stop ranting incessantly agaisnt them. I have adapted the fanfiction term to RPs, since no one has an official name for these characters. however bad you think they are in fanfiction, multiply the annoying factor by 10, and you have your RPG Mary-Sue. they are the Uruk-hai of Mary-Sues.
i love LotR fanfiction, and even though i cant write it very well, i love reading. for all of you tired of wading through the mindless millions of the fangirl-inspired fics, i found this great one on Fanfiction.net
caled 'Time and Space' by ArtemisPrime. the basis is Legolas gets transported to the future, and is put in a mental hospital. there he meets the only person who can reunite him with Aragorn and get him home.
whateverit sounds like to the contrary, this is definitly not a Mary-sue. in fact, it may be the best fic on the whole damn site!
enough ranting, heres the link:
Time and Space

[Liriodendron]

I've never read fanfiction, after reading that, I don't think I need to! Sounds like a daydream. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Losthuniel]

whadda mean? (sorry, stupid here) its a very good story,ignore my summary, go read it.

[Liriodendron]

Oh, I meant the first story, When I have a little more time, I will go to your story and read it, cause you said it's good! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Losthuniel]

my story, hell no, thats not my story. good lord! ME, write something like THAT? have you got your lions crossed! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] .

[Liriodendron]

Giggle, we're not communicating well! My fault. By your story I meant your recomendation. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]I'd rather do a picture than write a story!

[Losthuniel]

lol! i get it now!
BTW, welcome to the Downs. we dont bite (much) anyways, have fun being dead!

[Liriodendron]

Thank you so much, Losthumiel. I plan on having fun. Hey ho! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Nimrodel]

Losthuniel, That's a good story. I'm glad you posted the link. I'm printing it up and reading it a chapter at a time, as time allows.

[Niphredil Baggins]

I write to fanfiction.net, and sometimes I write to people who review my stories well to thank them, and some of them turn out to be quality writers themselves, but some, well... I usually don't comment on their stories, they are young, they will learn; I did. My stories have evolved from a half-Mary-Sue to tragedy and dark humour. I've learned the characteristics of a Mary-Sue in order to avoid those stories without wasting too much time trying to decide if a particular story is one.

[Losthuniel]

whats your penname on ff.net?

[Ithaeliel]

I am starting to feel bad about having a heroine in my story at all.

[Losthuniel]

dont feel bad! everyone loves heroines! in all the stories i write, my heroes are female. its making sure your character is sufficently developed is the trick. i admit, some of my characters have not developed throughout the story, but i just scrap those and start again.
heres a good website for all the heroines
Sheroes

[Niphredil Baggins]

I'm known att ff.net as Arwen Imladviel. Not all my stuff is Tolkien, but almost. The poetry is the worst. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Of course heroines are allowed! In Tolkien-inspired stories there is all the more room for females, since Tolkien himself had so few significant ones there.

Besides, some male characters of the writer's own invention behave very much like Mary-Sues. They are called Gary-Lou.

I have three female heroes in three different fics, one a hobbit, one an elf, one a Maia. None of them is, I think, a Mary-Sue. Go and read their lives and you'll see what I mean.

oh, and then I have one funny story with only Tolkien's characters, none my own.

[Susan Delgado]

Is fanfiction.net down? Not only can I not get into Losthuniel's link, it won't even let me into the main site there.... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Losthuniel]

It should work now...

[The Silver-shod Muse]

I sometimes give my heroines minor fits of depression to keep their preppiness under control. It works, and it adds a facet of negative personality.

[mystra]

hi! i totally agree! im reading a medieval novel at the mo and the main heroine is sooooooo perfect! shes really starting to annoy me! she can beat all the knights at woteva they do, she getys away with it!!!!!! and she saves the day in a battle. urrgh!
anyway!!!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] um.... ok, i have ranted and raved, um... thats it i think!! byeee! luv myst. ps. a lot of the pointless fan fic is actually quite enjoyable, even if it is predictable. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Ithilwen]

Susan Delgado, fanfiction.net has been having major server problems for approximately the last two weeks - sometimes the site is up and functioning reasonably well, sometimes it's up but acting very quirky, and much of the time it's down. If you persevere (and try accessing the site at differing times throughout the day - I find it's working best for me around 7-9AM Central Daylight Savings Time), you'll probably get through eventually. This problem is driving those of us who have our fics posted there crazy! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

[Susan Delgado]

Thank you, Ithelwen. I just tried and it worked. It's a great story, too [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Ithilwen]

Susan, there are tons of wonderful stories posted on fanfiction.net (which is why the current server problems are so frustrating!), but they tend to be buried in an avalanche of truly horrible fics! I prefer Silmarillion-based fics, so I don't know all the best LoTR authors posting there, but if the Search function is working the next time you go to fanfiction.net, do an authorsearch for Dwimordene - I think you'll really enjoy her stories, and she'll have links on her authorpage to many other good writers (look under her "Favorite Authors" and "Favorite Stories" sections).

[Losthuniel]

in the story I'm currently writing, (fantasy , of course) my heroine is a goth raver type.

As for the crap you find on ff.nt, I am working to establish a home for good fanfic, so send yours in and I will edit it. *ducks spam police* ok, ok, I'm finished.

[Ithilwen]

I mentioned this in a thread in The Books, but I'll repeat it in this thread anyway [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] The writer's group Henneth Annun has opened a new archive, and since the fic have to be recommended by several members to be posted there, they're generally very good. The url is www.henneth-annun.net. Check it out when you're finished reading the fics here at the Downs! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Morgul Queen]

Don't worry about the Evil Empire, that's what Stories of Arda and RMH are for, eh?

On the subject of great FF authors, I have a list of some of the best on FF.net.

TreeHugger
JastaElf
Jay of Lasgalen
Jenolas
Dragon-of-the-North
Jocelyn
AC4
Marnie
The Nightrunners
PutterPatty
Dragon Confused
Wednesday mc
Camilla Sandman
Lord Elrond's Bailiff
Harpwire
Ithilien
Katharine the Great

These, I swear, are some of the best authors I have ever seen....including published ones too. For anyone who likes slash, If anyone here does, AC's The Folly of Starlight is absolutly amazing, and even if slash isn't your cup of tea it is still worth checking out. I am absolutly in love with the history she has created for Legolas, Thranduil, Oropher, Elrond, Elros, Gil-galad and basically most of the canon characters are involved in some way, shape, or form.

If you still don't wish to have a look, Jasta's Dark Leaf is just as good. DL is found in its entirety at RMH which is listed above. Give it a look people.

[aleesa]

Gary-Lou and Mary-Sue? Thanks for the description. I've read a few fanfictions where the Mary-Sues can get so annoying. I mean, I read a fanfiction about character that is so sweet and perfectly beaautiful and the male lead (Legolas) falls hopelessly in love with her. Ok...I shouldnt't be rude just because someone wants to write his or her fanfic...Sorry...
But then, there are good fanfictions that aren't just about swooning heroines or too-perfect characters and I love to read them. Keep those good fanfic coming people... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Ack, I can't stand Mary-Sues. But admittedly, I have been guilty of using them in my stories. When I first started writing fanfiction I was really in to Harry Potter, and one of my characters was such a horribly perfect Mary Sue it made you want to be sick (though I didn't notice at the time). Black hair, very very blue eyes, pretty, mysterious, clever, you know what I mean.
Does anyone have any tips on how to stop female characters becoming Mary-Sues? I'd suggest not letting them join the Fellowship, giving them at least one flaw or something they're unhappy about. Give them a really big nose *heh heh*.
I write on fanfiction.net under the pen name of Daisy Brambleburr, and I've got a lot of fics up.
Here's a question, have you ever read a Mery Sue fic (a serious one, not a parody) that you thought was really good?

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Speaking of good writers on ff.net, Altariel is fabulous. I love Faramir fics and her "A Game of Chess" is a masterpiece that's set after the War of the Ring. It is NOT a Mary-Sue.

While I don't like to read Mary-Sues, I don't mind people writing them because that's how most people start out when they're writing. Wish fulfilment stories are okay as long as I don't have to look at them. Actually, some Mary-Sues overcome their questionable origins to become pretty good stories. There's one in particular at ff.net that I like quite a bit, even though the heroine has white hair, fights as well as a man, is Aragorn's long-lost cousin and has three canon characters attracted to her -- all hallmarks of a typical Mary-Sue. I won't give the title, because the author would probably be insulted that I thought her story a Mary-Sue.

Ways to avoid writing a Mary-Sue:

Don't invent new characters. Use only canon characters that already have defined roles in the story.

If you must invent a female character, make darn sure she doesn't end up romantically involved with a canon character EVER (unless it's Gimli). Invent a new character for her to fall in love with.

She must also not be related to any canon characters. Do not have her be a long-lost twin, cousin, bastard daughter or ex-girlfriend of anyone with a name.

Do not make her royalty of any type. Especially not a long-lost elven princess, or the true heir of the caliphate of Harad, etc.

Do not make her looks strikingly beautiful or ugly.

Do not make her better at a canon character's specialty than that character is. If she shoots better than Legolas, rides better than Eomer and finds mithril better than Gimli, she needs to be toned down. She can be good enough to win compliments, just not *better*. A non-Mary-Sue would ride better than Gimli, shoot better than Eomer and find mithril better than Legolas. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Do not have all the canon characters like/admire her. Some should dislike her, be indifferent or even suspicious.

Do not have her die and have everyone cry over her loss.

Do not give her a single word name that is a noun. Especially if that noun is "Cat".

Cheers!
-Lily

[Kalimac]

Bravo, Lily! I'd just like to make one addition:

Tortured pasts are forbidden. One parent who died of natural causes is OK. Two is pushing it, but doable. Parents who (in ME) die by Orc-related violence or (in the modern world) are murdered or die in childbirth are *out*. If your heroine is the sole survivor of a ruined village/Elvenkingdom/what-have-you, put down the pen and back away slowly.

I've been on a sort of fanfiction kick lately (doctor-ordered lounging around largely being responsible for that) and I'm guessing that literally half of the Sues, if not more, have some sort of disastrous or traumatic past. I'm not saying that you can't have a convincing character with a tragic past, but it is harder to make it work. Too often it's just a device to go for the waterworks.

OTOH, I'll admit to having a weakness for some Sue-ish stories, mostly the ones which stay within ME - I've yet to see a "Girl dropped into Middle Earth" story which worked when it wasn't supposed to be funny. But there's no need to stay away from OCs altogether. I've read some pretty good (if unlikely) fics where an OC falls in love with a canon character - UNATTACHED canon character, let me specify, so no fics about Pippin's love interest unless her name is Diamond of Long Cleave - but they were fun and readable because the OC didn't have superpowers or Luthien-defeating beauty, didn't join the quest, actually had interests/characteristics in common with the canon character ... you get the idea. I think a lot of the appeal in those stories is that they try to answer the question "What was it like *not* to be in the Fellowship?" It must have been rather strange to be a hobbit in the Shire, for example, watching all the Ruffians move in and old places being torn down and dug up, completely unaware of what this is symptomatic of, but still trying to figure out how to get on with life.

That being said, if you have a morbid sense of humour and several hours to kill, try googling "LOTR Sues". There is evil there that does not sleep...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't read much fan-fiction and definitely try to avoid Mary-Sue stories, since I haven't found any that I enjoyed reading. However, we do have the ultimate Mary-Sue parody RPG right here at the Downs. If you haven't read The Revenge of the Entish Bow (now being continued in 'The Reunification of the Entish Bow' on the Gondor RPG forum), you might want to take a look at Merisuwyniel and her Fellow/Galship...

[Bill]

If that's the definition of Mary Sue
or Gary Lou, the Harry Potter in the
philospher's stone book must be a Gary lou! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Lol, Niphredil!

If you´re still wondering about the "Official Mary Sue Definition", check out this "scientific guide" to Mary sues. It´s totally hilarous, and no, I didn´t read the whole thing.

[Daisy Brambleburr]

What about non-canon characters that are romantically involved with a canon character? In one of my fics I have a Boromir/OC romance, and it was hard not to turn her into a Mary Sue. How far can you go, in regards to inventing your own Middle Earth character?

[Kalimac]

Bill - actually, that's technically impossible, since Harry Potter is not an outside character in his own world. Canon Stu is, of course, another question, though I'd argue that Harry has enough flaws (tendency to fly off the handle, to jump into things and make huge mistakes, etc - which excuse him from that definition [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). Canon Sue turns up a lot - Eowyn gets hit with it a lot, unfortunately.

Daisy - I'm sending you a PM, hope that's OK. (I didn't want to go on too long about one particular type of story, since I don't want to make the mods frown).

Self-insertion or original character fics can be written without it being a mary sue... lol... I put all my original characters thru the wringer... and they sure ain't perfect lol

[Sapphire_Flame]

Well said, Twisted Angel.

Tortured pasts are forbidden.

As are mystery pasts. If your character doesn't know anything about their past/has some sort of amnesia, shred the fic immediately and start over.

I do agree with much of what is said here; I've had one or two Mary-Sue accusations of my own fic at FF.net, which I rather resented, but it has made me think more about my character and how she is relating to the canon characters I'm using. There are a lot of really horrible Mary-Sue's on FF.net. But there are stories with Original Characters that are done quite well, and with a minimal amount of Sue-like incidents.

One thing to mention: Making OC's too perfect is a major mistake. So is making them too angst-ridden in an attempt to avoid the above. Finding a happy medium can be difficult, but excellent if done correctly.

To you readers of FF.net, I recommend the authors shirebound, Baylor, and Pearl Took. Truly excellent authors.

Abedithon le,

~*~Aranel~*~

[Morgul Queen]

What is more annoying than 'Rings 'Sues are...HOBBIT 'Sues, mainly because thay have to have read the books to know about Hobbit Canon and they still mangle it anyway. Myself (Agent Darkling) and my friend/partner, Dizzy B. are the Protecters of the Hobbit Continuum so once again, if you see any Hobbit 'Sues, 'Lous, or excessive OOC-ness PM me and we'll put paid to them.

Also, we at the PPC have a Mary-Sue litmus test so you can make sure that your OC's aren't 'Sues. I can't remember the URL so if you want it PM me!

Ummm, Estelyn? Can I post PPC fics at the 'Downs, or is that not polite, it could serve as a warning to 'Sue authors?

[Catlyn21]

Ah...fanfiction...don't even get me started on it, I've been hooked since a friend showed me...

But anyway, I think that it is basically alright for people to post their Mary Sues on there -- as long as they realize that no self-respecting person is ever going to read them! No harm in just putting them there, eh?

Not all fanfic is bad though, the parodies and humor are hysterical (me being the pathetic writer of just one story...I don't even remember what its called, if you want to read it PM me), and the some of the angsty ones are pretty good...maybe thats just me, though [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

**My mom blocked me from fanfic 'cause I read it too much... guess thats saying something...**