Facing 19 Fingers and One Big Eye

[alatar]

In the 'Voice of Saruman' chapter, Gandalf the White tells Saruman that he may leave Orthanc to go wherever he chooses, even to Mordor, if Saruman so wishes. What was Gandalf thinking? First, as a caveat, I'm not sure how well received Saruman would be at Barad-dur - if I were Sauron, I'd definitely watch my back. That said, Saruman had valuable information that could have aided Sauron in his war effort and in his efforts to recover the Ring.

So how would that play out? And what would the West face if Saruman did physically join up with the East, if Hand and Eye were to join forces.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

So how would that play out? And what would the West face if Saruman did physically join up with the East, if Hand and Eye were to join forces.

Hmmm...I think Sauron would have flayed Saruman alive, particularly after the Nazgul brought back news of Saruman's double-dealing and treachery. In fact, after Saruman's confrontation with the Nazgul at Orthanc, I don't believe Saruman would have even considered a trip to Mordor.

[Inziladun]

I believe by that time Sauron likely already had all the useful information that Saruman could offer, courtesy of their conversations by Palantír. I don't think Saruman knew of the plan to destroy the Ring, as either Sauron would have gleaned that from Saruman's mind during one of their conferences, or Saruman would have willingly informed Sauron so as to receive his favour in victory. If Saruman himself could not lay hands upon the Ring, that had to have been his "Plan B".
Sauron was well aware of Saruman's doings and did not need him, though I'm sure repaying Saruman for trying to get the Ring for himself would have been a priority for Sauron once the West was beaten.

[alatar]

I'm not sure Sauron would be comfortable with Saruman - a rival - hanging on the mat. On the other hand, I can't see Saruman playing second fiddle to the other maia either - even if he were the Captain of the Forces of Barad-dur, he would still be #2.

On the other hand, as Saruman had just been humiliated by Gandalf, and as he's already stated that he would accept lesser-than-optimal means to an end, he might become a captain of the East just to get revenge on the hobbits, ents and especially Gandalf.

Thanks for replying.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by alatar

On the other hand, as Saruman had just been humiliated by Gandalf, and as he's already stated that he would accept lesser-than-optimal means to an end, he might become a captain of the East just to get revenge on the hobbits, ents and especially Gandalf.

Oh, but he did exact revenge...in the basest, most meanspirited manner possible (a reflection of how far he had fallen), by becoming the petty dictator of the Shire, Sharky. He says as much to Frodo.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Oh, but he did exact revenge...in the basest, most meanspirited manner possible (a reflection of how far he had fallen), by becoming the petty dictator of the Shire, Sharky. He says as much to Frodo.

Hmm...started thinking about that. What again was the rationale for him to mordorize the Shire? Sure, he had business associates there, but I thought that when the Hobbits came upon him like some beggar on the road, he was going a different direction - so was the thought late in coming? I assume that, as he had little more than one fang left, he left the abodes of Elrond, Galadriel, Aragorn and Eomer alone.

Had he been looking to be a spoiler - didn't Galadriel try to keep him from resume-padding - if he had joined with Morder, he could have led the attacks on Lorien, maybe to better effect.

Maybe since the attack of the Ents, he developed a phobia about trees, and so had as many as possible cut down in the Shire.

[The Might]

In all of LotR one thing is more clear than anything - Sauron needed no help from Saruman. He had so many forces in Mordor he could have destroyed everything alone, and I really mean everything. It was a great misfortune that something slipped into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom, a truly unexpected event.

So if he was 110% sure he could anihilate all alone, why would he accept Saruman's help?

Give me one good reason for that. I doubt there is any.

He knew Saruman may try to backstab him and take his place as ruler and he was smart enough to avoid that. Plus, I am pretty sure people like Mouth Of Sauron would also not have welcomed Saruman, especially as they wanted the high posts as stewards over the western lands answering only to Sauron. So they may have dealt with Saruman before he even got to Mordor to ask for forgiveness.

Saruman did the only thing he could do, there was no other place he could enslave and rule with only a hand full of ruffians - the Shire was the perfect opportunity.
Ok, theoretically he could have tried to go East, past Mordor and to have Easterlings worship him, but even there Sauron had his agents and would not have tolerated competition, plus Saruman had a reason to go to the Shire - revenge.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

In all of LotR one thing is more clear than anything - Sauron needed no help from Saruman. He had so many forces in Mordor he could have destroyed everything alone, and I really mean everything.

Note that he (Sauron) *was* using Saruman to attack the rear of the forces of the West. Had the Uruks overrun Rohan, they would have then assisted in the attack on Minas Tirith.

It was a great misfortune that something slipped into Mordor and all the way to Mount Doom, a truly unexpected event.

Hey, whose side are you on?

So if he was 110% sure he could anihilate all alone, why would he accept Saruman's help?

Again, as he was using Saruman for something, why not use him for something else?

Give me one good reason for that. I doubt there is any.

I'll give two: One, as Saruman said to Theoden, one just doesn't cast aside the help of a maia so easily, and Saruman had to have had some information, such as about the White Council, that could prove advantageous to Sauron, and Saruman was a Ring maker too (which could prove helpful), and they were both maia of Aule, and so probably shared some secret guild handshake.

He knew Saruman may try to backstab him and take his place as ruler and he was smart enough to avoid that. Plus, I am pretty sure people like Mouth Of Sauron would also not have welcomed Saruman, especially as they wanted the high posts as stewards over the western lands answering only to Sauron. So they may have dealt with Saruman before he even got to Mordor to ask for forgiveness.

True. But by leaving him loose, they were leaving a loose end, which could not only lead to some future plot against them, but also a straight-to-video sequel named, "The Son of Saruman." Plus, it's good to keep your enemies close, as, as you say, it's easier to stab them in the back.

Saruman did the only thing he could do, there was no other place he could enslave and rule with only a hand full of ruffians - the Shire was the perfect opportunity.
Ok, theoretically he could have tried to go East, past Mordor and to have Easterlings worship him, but even there Sauron had his agents and would not have tolerated competition, plus Saruman had a reason to go to the Shire - revenge.

Agreed. The Shire was a soft target. I don't think that it was so much about 'revenge,' but more due to the circumstances. If the hobbits hailed from a Minas Tirithy kind of place, he (Saruman) may have chosen some other form of mischief.

[The Might]

Well, sir, although the old saying about "keep your enemies closer" has a certain importance, it still makes no sense at all why Sauron, who was sure he would soon be the sole master of Middle-earth use Saruman as a lieutenant of his forces. In the end both seeked the same - the Ring - and Sauron knew it. But there could only be one who possesed it, so Saruman would have been eliminated. This is beyond doubt, or at least I am sure of it. You say, Sauron could gain some advantages off the alliance - true, useful, but not necessary, not at all. Only a bonus at most.

Plus, I ask for some understanding here, but the whole idea about the son of Sauron makes no sense at all for me. Really, no sense. I mean, why would Sauron in any respect fear Saruman?

From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman. Which leads to the conclusion that no matter what Saruman did it was virtually impossible for him to really do anything in the end against Sauron - it was inevitable, he could not become the next Dark Lord.

This is why I all in all feel that the whole theory of Saruman helping Sauron is based on no evidence at all, hence it appears that Saruman would never have considered truly serving Sauron.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by The Might

Well, sir, although the old saying about "keep your enemies closer" has a certain importance, it still makes no sense at all why Sauron, who was sure he would soon be the sole master of Middle-earth use Saruman as a lieutenant of his forces. In the end both seeked the same - the Ring - and Sauron knew it. But there could only be one who possesed it, so Saruman would have been eliminated. This is beyond doubt, or at least I am sure of it. You say, Sauron could gain some advantages off the alliance - true, useful, but not necessary, not at all. Only a bonus at most.

I think that we are in agreement here. Sauron could do it all without Saruman, but Saruman, as you say, needed the Dark Lord (or the One Ring) to increase his dominion. I just was wondering if that ole honey-tongued viper (Saruman) would make an attempt to ride Sauron's coattails.

Plus, I ask for some understanding here, but the whole idea about the son of Sauron makes no sense at all for me. Really, no sense. I mean, why would Sauron in any respect fear Saruman?

Maybe because I wrote, "Son of Saruman." It was a lame attempt at humor; I will refrain in the future...

From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman.

I agree with the first half, but I thought that Gandalf - or any other of the Wise - with the One Ring would be equal to Sauron, or at least have the ability to become another Dark Lord.

Which leads to the conclusion that no matter what Saruman did it was virtually impossible for him to really do anything in the end against Sauron - it was inevitable, he could not become the next Dark Lord.

If only he had hobbits...and catapults...with lasers... But seriously (sorry ), wasn't it Gandalf the one who states at the Council of Elrond that by Saruman's knowledge the White Council were able to scare Sauron from Dol Guldur...oops, that's another thread.

This is why I all in all feel that the whole theory of Saruman helping Sauron is based on no evidence at all, hence it appears that Saruman would never have considered truly serving Sauron.

Much agreed. I'm attempting to speculate, given any evidence, what would happen "if." Weren't I recently accused of lacking in this ability?

All in jest - alatar

[The Might]

Speaking of Sauron's possible defeat at the hands of one of the Wise, I'd first take a look at how he may have been defeated as see in the history of Arda.

First, a look at letter #211:

Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the 'Downfall' or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron's subjects, not Sauron. Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning[1]: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans.
[1] Note the expression III p. 364 [2nd edition p. 365] 'taken as prisoner'.

So this apparent first precedent actually was not a precedent at all, but something different. The only occasions on which Sauron had truly been defeated where, as is said in the above letter:

Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind'

So when Númenor was destroyed. And:

Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.

The thing is, by the time of the War of the Ring, none of these two precedents could be repeated. Eru would not intervene that much (ok, he did a bit, but not on the scale of the destruction of an island) and also he had fully established his domination, unlike during the attack of the Last Alliance.

Considering the relative power of Gandalf with the Ring and Sauron without I most like to take a look at letter #144:

First, Tolkien explains that neither Frodo nor any other mortal, not even Aragorn could ever be able to defeat Sauron with the Ring. He then reffers to the Wise, saying:

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.

So the general idea that this quote gives is firstly that more or less Gandalf alone could ever have hoped to replace Sauron.

Elrond and Galadriel would have built up large armies and attacked Mordor, but victory seems to have been a plausible option at best, since a direct encounter with Sauron would have been fatal and that after probably all the dreams of replacing Sauron were a consequence of the Ring's own influence. So, the wisest and strongest of Elves had a dim chance at best.

Gandalf, on the other hand would have had a delicate balance of power if he encountered Sauron. The thing is Tolkien names no victor here, so one can speculate at best about Gandalf's chances to become the next Dark Lord.

So, all in all, it appears that noone truly could have challenged Sauron and won, except Gandalf perhaps.


And to return to the thread at hand, there is no mention of Saruman in this whole passage - showing that for Tolkien Saruman as a new Dark Lord was not even a possibility. So again, why would he then hope to be accepted by Sauron?

And, talking about the attack on Dol Guldur, it appears to have actually been planned by Sauron, so Saruman played a minor part there at best.


Btw, I apologize for myself lacking a sense of humor, I actually believed you meant the "Son of Saruman" idea as a viable possibility.

And as much as I enjoy speculating, as I did in the other thread, I believe that in some cases there simply is not enough supporting it. And I now for example feel the same about the idea of the old man near Fangorn having been a ghost or an image of Gandalf after having seen the quotes from HoMe which clearly pointed towards Saruman as a culprit.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by The Might

From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Saruman.

Don't you mean:

"From the works we know Gandalf was stronger than Saruman and that Gandalf with the One Ring on would be more or less about as powerful as Sauron."

It was a bit confusing when I read it the first time.

Other than that, everything I would have said about this has already been said.

[The Might]

Yeah, of course.