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#1 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 35
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Those who dare enter Lorien
It is mentioned several times in LOTR that many consider Lorien to be dangerous, and that of those who enter, few ever return. Faramir also tells this to Frodo in TTT.
So what happens to the ones who never return? Orcs, we know their fate. But what about men? Are they killed by the elves? Kept prisoner? Or do they remain by their own choosing?
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#2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
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I would think that the story of "disappearing people" is more like a spooky story unfolded by superstitious Eorlings and Gondorians and such. But, still I think it may be that this thing really happened to a few people (the legends are likely to have at least some real basis, right), and in that case I would say: if they came with evil intent (like raiders or something), I would expect their fate to be that of the Orcs. But in other cases, I would go for the last reason you state - that they remained of their free (?) will - I am placing here the question mark, because I could see them falling under some sort of enchantment in Lórien, and either wandering the borders without knowing where they are and where to go, until they die from starvation, or for example sitting in the middle of a glade and turning to stone or falling into a state similar to it, you know... Let's not forget that it's improbable, if not impossible, that a Man would actually live in Lórien among the Elves. That is close to unimaginable.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Well look what happened to Boromir...he entered...and came out changed. Thus, leading to his death.
I think the whole passage through Lorien is a test of will and spirit - if you fail, you might do something you regret, or even die. Yet if you pass, you go on to bigger things and you achieve greatness within yourself and in deeds. For that is what happened to the rest of the Fellowship. Although you could say that Boromir achieved a greater good...which I think he did, in the end. Totally. ![]()
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"Loud and clear it sounds in the valleys of the hills...and then let all the foes of Gondor flee!" -Boromir, The Fellowship of the Ring |
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#4 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 35
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I take Faramir at his word, that people really did go in and not return. That's just my impression from reading the book. There seemed to be enough rumours circulating which probably means there was some truth to this.
I can't imagine the elves killing a man (or not a man who intends no mischief). But, I can't imagine them allowing some wandering random man to live with them. Would they just wander aimlessly throughout Lorien until they died? Maybe... although I like to think there's a little colony of men who live on the outskirts, living a life of enchantment. Sort of like the ex-pat Brits who move to the Costas, sitting on the patio of their beach-side villa, toasting themselves with a glass of Rioja and saying "I don't know why we didn't do this years ago..."
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#5 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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I think of it as rather like the story of Rip Van Winkle by Washington Irving or Karl Katz by the Brothers Grimm (or even Ossian the warrior bard's last dialogue with St. Patrick). When mortals come in contact with Faerie, there is a time-space alteration. Time does not flow the same in Lorien as in the outside world (and this was noticed by Frodo and the others). What seems like a day could be a week, could be a year, could be a century. Those who enter without leave and managed to return to the outside world (if any) are irrevocably altered, aged beyond recognition.
This would only have to happen a few times before superstitions arose, stories of dread concerning the Elf Witch and her haunted forest abode. Similar stories from both Rohan and Gondor give credence to the germ of truth lost in time years before. The Elves, who obviously did not want mortal interlopers nosing around, would certainly foster the superstition, A very effective piece of propaganda, I must say.
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#6 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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#7 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Then perhaps I should have said the 'perception' of time flows differently within Lorien. There is no noticeable change, neither seasons nor trees bear the weight of change and age. To a mortal, this would have the same effect as if time stood still, save that they would continue to age while the world remained ever green. Without a means to gauge time, and given the enchanted nature of Lorien, it would be easy for a mortal to succumb to its enticement and forget the world outside; hence my allusion to Rip Van Winkle, or Thomas the Rhymer if you'd like.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#8 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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OK, but the Company (for example) would rather remain young while those in the outside world aged.
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#9 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 15
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#10 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: midway upon... in a forest dark
Posts: 975
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But to answer Galin's question, they'd age but not notice it, due maybe to the fair unchanging surroundings. But not even the Valar could remove the Doom of Men, yet maybe because of the power of the elven ring they could age more gracefully than others outside would. Galadriel is an Elf, immortal, and powerful even by Elven standards. Gondor's lore was fading as the kingdom itself did, and Rohan was sort of "barbaric" when it comes to literature and elven culture. What do you expect them to think? She didn't really maintain contact with Gondor, if she had it at all, so the concept of her being an enchantress is consequential.
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#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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Regarding my statement above, and with respect to the Company not ageing in Lórien (or ageing very slowly), from Hammond and Scull:
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#12 | ||
Flame Imperishable
Join Date: Dec 2007
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#13 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
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He wasn't bound to one place and traveled quite a lot, so nobody stayed close to him for much long. Maybe had the Fellowship remained together for longer time than just a few months...
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#14 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Going to Faerie is different than having someone from Faerie visit you. Gandalf doesn't bring Faerie. Gildor brings a taste of it, but I doubt that Frodo, Sam, & Pippin stopped aging when they were with him.
If they ahd stayed for a month with Tom Bombadil, would they have aged then? I wonder.
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#15 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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If Men went into Lorien (and they were probably either too busy elsewhere or too scared to do so), then they would likely have come out of there altered and somehow 'other'. Look how the place affected the members of the Fellowship, and they were more or less made welcome there. A Man might come out at best bewildered and at worst, changed.
It's a familiar tale in folklore and mythology, the mortal who enters Faerie and comes out many, many years later (the traditional time scale seems to be seven years later, whereas he feels he has been there for just one day) quite altered. It's also a familiar motif, the idea of a place that's far too perilous to enter because of the faeries - see Stardust and Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell for two good examples of it in modern literature.
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#16 | |
Flame Imperishable
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But Tom Bombadil's house isn't Faerie. Or is it? The debate goes ever on and on, down from the book where it began, now far ahead the debate shall go, over....... The thing is Tom Bombadil is more "down to earth", so I think that rather than stay the same in the way of elves and Maia, like "beings from above" they'd be more like the earth, changing, getting older, maybe very slowly but still getting older. Or maybe they'd age in the way of seasons, so every year they'd get older quicker than normal, but then be younger again in the spring.
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#17 | |||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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Oh, where is Littlemanpoet when I need him. I think Tom does just as much preserving and protecting, without a ring, as Elrond and Galadriel do with a ring. Very much Faerie, very changeless. And amazing that the ring has no effect on him: makes no change in him.
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#18 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Since Aragorn grew up in Rivendell, my guess is that Lorien would have less of an effect on him than it would have on, say, Forlong the Fat. We saw what effect Lorien had on Boromir. Anyone care to hazard a guess on the effect Lorien would have on Faramir? Or Imrahil? Or Denethor-- a frightening thought.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#19 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In the caboose pulled by the unseen.
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I like how you state it. Boromir did not fail himself or the Fellow-ship. As to Lorien, is this the Woodland Realm, where Geladria reigns? She was responsible for each one seeing what is in their heart. In Frodo's case, the probable future was revealed. The 'seldom return' comment is in relation to the difficulty of reaching this place, Lorien. It makes me wonder. |
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#20 | |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
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I wonder if it was the Elven (and Maiar) blood which coursed through his veins which made him better able to cope with the effects of Faerie? Or was it his upbringing in Rivendell (even though Rivendell is a welcoming place for Men)? Even so, when we go with Aragorn to Lorien on the journey of the Fellowship, he speaks of the place with huge reverence, so even he is not fully immune ![]()
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