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#1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 118
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Some here have suggested that Frodo was a Christ-like figure. I disagree. As much as I love him, he failed. He failed to let go of the ring at Mount Doom. He claimed it as his own, and it was only by luck, exept that of course it had nothing to do with luck, that the ring fell in and took Gollum with it. Even Frodo was found a sinner in the end. Don't get this wrong, he is my hero! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Wistful, willful, wingless, fly! |
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#2 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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On Christ-like Tolkien characters: many of the characters in LotR have some Christ-like qualities, but remember that none of them are perfect. Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf all have some Godly qualities. Of these characters, Sam comes closest to being truely Christ-like.
I love Frodo too, though! It's a good thing Iluvitar was watching over it all, even though no one realized it.
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WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?) |
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#3 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Posts: 176
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Why do you think that about Sam, Rosa?
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"Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie |
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#4 |
Ghost of a Smile
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Well, i never thought of Frod o of=r any of the others as being Christ like. I just can't compare Christ and the characters.
Remember though, we all have good qualities which some would call "god-like", i think the characters you mentioned just had good personalities. (only my opinion, don't hit me!)
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Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master. |
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#5 |
Ghost of a Smile
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OOps that should say "Frodo or" not "Frod o of=r" i should look at what i type!
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Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master. |
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#6 |
Ghost Eldaran Queen
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A remote mountain in Valinor
Posts: 353
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Starbreeze - Looks like you're having the kind of day I have had! I am having a heck of a time trying to type anything coherent!
I agree with you, Rosa!
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A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!" |
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#7 | |||||
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: A Broom cupboard in Utumno
Posts: 185
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Another subject where Tolkien himself received much correspondence. He answered it (most eloquently, as only he can) with some of the following ripostes:
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Letter 191 Quote:
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†Actually referred to as "the One" [Eru Illuvatar] So, if it hadn't been for the finger of God prodding Gollum up the slope of Orodruin all would've been in vain ... Gollums the real hero!! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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Give me fish now, and keep nassty chips! |
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#8 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brandyhall, Texas
Posts: 67
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Hehe, Truely spoken. Gullom was the hero!!!
As much as I'm a big fan of Frodo. Gullom was the finally step in the ring's destruction. Did Gandalf not say, Gullom woud have a bigger part to play in it's story? And Gullom only ridded the world of the Ring BECAUSE he'd wanted it back and was happy to have it back and slipped from the cliff! Ah the topic of greed! |
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#9 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Posts: 176
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He also fell into the Cracks of Doom because Frodo told him (as the Ringbearer) that if he ever touched him again, he would be cast into the Fires of Mt. Doom. So, a part of that 'Other' had to be Evil, if by the power of the One, Gollum fell into the chasm from whence it was made. Which brings back full circle to the notion of how/why does Evil serve Good? An extremely Christian notion.
Jeez...I actually said 'whence.' Verily, I did, I did! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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"Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie |
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#10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: A place worse then Mordor........School!
Posts: 1,075
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Hang on Glenethor. If you read RotK you will see that it was accually the ring that swore that Gollum would be thrown into the fire if he touched the ring(which the ring refers to as 'me')
And remebering the ring it was the ring which made all these charicters corupted. They all, including Gollum were ok guys exept for the fact that the ring existed. That rotton piece of gold made Frodo do the things he did. If you hang on a sec I'll get my book and prove it's the ring that talks to Gollum.
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"There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?) |
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#11 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: A place worse then Mordor........School!
Posts: 1,075
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This is in RotK, chapter-Mount Doom,page-245-246
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Why han't it spoken before? Well maybe the ring needed to borrow a voice since rings don't normaly posess voices. And in order to do that it needed enough control over someone. What do you think about that.
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"There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?) |
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#12 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brandyhall, Texas
Posts: 67
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Yes, I think we can all come to agreements that the RING is EVIL!!
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#13 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow
Posts: 176
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#22!
[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Rosa, I respectfully disagree. You didn't use the whole quote of the passage. What you cite is Sam's perception of the interaction. The voice in the preceding paragraph is clearly Frodo's. It is a bit ambiguous, but that does not negate the fact that a significant theme of Tolkien's (and certain branches of Christianity) is that Evil is subordinate to Good, and Good will always conquer. It is an age old question, which is beyond the scope of this debate (don't want to get another thread locked down, now, do we? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) that I think Tolkien deals with, especially in the character of Gollum. As Gandalf says, in both the book and the movie, 'my heart tells me that Gollum still has some part to play for good or ill.' Now, I am a Christian, nominally C of E, and I find this question as fascinating as it is valid: Whence came Evil? Many argue that Evil doesn't exist, that it is all in the realm of psychopathology. I disagree, and my academic background is in psychology. Evil is real, but the mystery is, why does God allow it to? There are a million answers to that question. In any case, we have different opinions, and that is ok, eh? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Jeez, I love that movie! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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"Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie |
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#14 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,355
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There is an extensive debate on whether the Ring or Frodo spoke on Orodruin in a thread called "Frodo or the Ring?" found in the Books forum. Feel free to update that thread or import arguments from there to here.
Similarly, there is a thread about whether Frodo failed or not. In my view, the quotes provided that Frodo did not fail. He took the quest as far as was humanly (Hobbitly?) possible. He could not throw the Ring into his own fireplace; how could he be expected to destroy it months later after experiencing great suffering and the enhanced influence of the Ring? This is why he was given companions. To assist him not only in getting the Ring to Mordor but also to help him exercise the will to destroy it. Unfortunately, the breaking of the Fellowship eliminated his companions (except for Sam who was likely the one person who would not be able to engage in a conflict with Frodo) leaving him on his own. He went as far if not farther than anyone else could have gone. How is this a "failure"?
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#15 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 297
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Tolkien says that there isn't one definite Christ-like figure, but each of the heros display Christ-like qualities at times. Frodo, Sam, Merry & Pipin, Legolas & Gimli, Aragorn, Boromir's death, and even Gollum at times.
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Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile |
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#16 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 118
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Yoda to Luke Skywalker Anyway, I just wanted the topic to attract attention [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I love Frodo, and I loved him most when he put the ring in his finger at the Cracks of Doom... explain this if you can. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Wistful, willful, wingless, fly! |
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#17 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Before I continure on the topic, I just have to clear this up: Rose Cotton and Rosa Underhill are two different hobbits. One is "Rose" (as in "Rosie") the other is "Rosa" (as in "Rosamunda"). Thank you. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
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There are more, but I'm really tired today and can't think of them all. (These similarities between Christ and Sam are what started my new WWSD? campaign. I don't know what Jesus would do, but I have a pretty good idea what Sam would do. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img])
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WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?) |
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