A Question About the Dead Marshes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lomelinde · 06-03-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote: "Who are they? What are they?" asked Sam shuddering, turning to Frodo, who was now behind him.

..."I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them."

"Yes, yes," said Gollum. " All dead, all rotten. The Dead Marshes. There was a great battle long ago, yes, so they told him when Smeagol was young, when I was young before the Precious came. It was a great battle. Tall Men with long swords, and terrible Elves, and Orcses shrieking. They fought on the plain for days and months at the Black Gates."

Just out of curiosity, what battle was Gollum speaking of? At first, I assumed it was the Last Alliance, but now I'm not so sure. If anyone has a clue, please clue me in!null

Elrian · 06-03-2002, 07:21 PM

The Battle of Dagorlad where the Last Alliance fought Sauron.

lathspell · 06-04-2002, 06:47 AM

Yes, it was the Last Alliance, and believe that in later time Gondor fought a battle their against the Easterlings.

greetings,
lathspell

TarElendil · 06-12-2002, 09:52 PM

they fought two battles there. one with the harad also. During one of the battles King Ondoher was slain along with his sons. One of his sons had went disguised into battle because it was law that one of the Kings sons must stay incase the King fell. The disguised prince died in the Dead Marshes.

Raefindel · 06-13-2002, 12:24 AM

Thank You,TarElendil, That was interesting. I didn't know that.

lathspell · 06-15-2002, 07:15 AM

TarElendil - I thought that battle was fought in Ithilien near the morannon, but I might be wrong.

greetings,
lathspell

Kuruharan · 06-15-2002, 07:46 AM

The war that TarElendil refers to was actually much later than the Last Alliance (1944 TA), and it was against the Wainriders. However, there were two battles fought in that war, one was at Dagorlad and one was in Ithilien. The Wainriders were driven into the Dead Marshes in their panic stricken flight, and I expect that many of the dead from the earlier battle made it into the Marshes as well, so it was not just bodies from the War of the Last Alliance.

MallornLeaf · 06-15-2002, 01:21 PM

I knew it was the battle of Dagorlad, but one question. this wasn't THE battle, was it? this wasn't the battle that sauron was defeated... was it? that took place in the fleids near mount doom, right?

Kuruharan · 06-15-2002, 01:39 PM

It was one of them. That was the battle where the Last Alliance drove into Mordor and beseiged Barad-dur. But, you're right that it was not the battle where Sauron came forth and was personally defeated.

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-15-2002, 06:16 PM

Here's another question: what exactly were those reflection things? They couldn't have been the men, elves and orcs themselves because they go to the Halls of Mandos after death. That leads me to another question that is completely off-topic, but oh well. Do orcs go to the Halls of Mandos too or do they get thrown out in the dark with Melkor? After all, it wasn't really their choice to be born ugly and marred, Melkor did that to them.

TarElendil · 06-15-2002, 11:43 PM

Quote:

The war that TarElendil refers to was actually much later than the Last Alliance (1944 TA), and it was against the Wainriders. However, there were two battles fought in that war, one was at Dagorlad and one was in Ithilien. The Wainriders were driven into the Dead Marshes in their panic stricken flight, and I expect that many of the dead from the earlier battle made it into the Marshes as well, so it was not just bodies from the War of the Last Alliance.

there were many battles fought in that general area. the Battle of the Camp was fought in ithlien against the harad and easterlinges, after which earnil became king. i wasnt speaking of any exact battle

Kuruharan · 06-16-2002, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Do orcs go to the Halls of Mandos too or do they get thrown out in the dark with Melkor? After all, it wasn't really their choice to be born ugly and marred, Melkor did that to them.

Boy, you do enjoy opening the cans o' worms don't you!

This is one of the most complex topics that Tolkien fans get in heated arguments about.

There is a thread in the Revised Silmarillion Forum that goes IN DEPTH with this question. I think that it is called Orcish Fear or something like that. I'll have to check.

06-03-2002, 07:06 PM	#1
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	A Question About the Dead Marshes Quote: "Who are they? What are they?" asked Sam shuddering, turning to Frodo, who was now behind him. ..."I know not who they are; but I thought I saw there Men and Elves, and Orcs beside them." "Yes, yes," said Gollum. " All dead, all rotten. The Dead Marshes. There was a great battle long ago, yes, so they told him when Smeagol was young, when I was young before the Precious came. It was a great battle. Tall Men with long swords, and terrible Elves, and Orcses shrieking. They fought on the plain for days and months at the Black Gates." Just out of curiosity, what battle was Gollum speaking of? At first, I assumed it was the Last Alliance, but now I'm not so sure. If anyone has a clue, please clue me in!null __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

06-03-2002, 07:21 PM	#2
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The Battle of Dagorlad where the Last Alliance fought Sauron. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

06-04-2002, 06:47 AM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	Yes, it was the Last Alliance, and believe that in later time Gondor fought a battle their against the Easterlings. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

06-13-2002, 12:24 AM	#5
Raefindel Sword of the Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,313	Thank You,TarElendil, That was interesting. I didn't know that. __________________ Blessed be the Lord my Strength, Who trained my hands for war and my fingers to fight. Psallm 144:1

06-15-2002, 07:15 AM	#6
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	TarElendil - I thought that battle was fought in Ithilien near the morannon, but I might be wrong. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

06-12-2002, 09:52 PM	#4
TarElendil Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Armenelos Posts: 136	they fought two battles there. one with the harad also. During one of the battles King Ondoher was slain along with his sons. One of his sons had went disguised into battle because it was law that one of the Kings sons must stay incase the King fell. The disguised prince died in the Dead Marshes.

06-15-2002, 07:46 AM	#7
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	The war that TarElendil refers to was actually much later than the Last Alliance (1944 TA), and it was against the Wainriders. However, there were two battles fought in that war, one was at Dagorlad and one was in Ithilien. The Wainriders were driven into the Dead Marshes in their panic stricken flight, and I expect that many of the dead from the earlier battle made it into the Marshes as well, so it was not just bodies from the War of the Last Alliance. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

06-15-2002, 01:21 PM	#8
MallornLeaf Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: who cares? Posts: 76	I knew it was the battle of Dagorlad, but one question. this wasn't THE battle, was it? this wasn't the battle that sauron was defeated... was it? that took place in the fleids near mount doom, right? __________________ ". . . All we must decide is what to do with the time that is given us." "I pass the test, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."

06-15-2002, 01:39 PM	#9
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,589	It was one of them. That was the battle where the Last Alliance drove into Mordor and beseiged Barad-dur. But, you're right that it was not the battle where Sauron came forth and was personally defeated. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

06-15-2002, 06:16 PM	#10
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	Here's another question: what exactly were those reflection things? They couldn't have been the men, elves and orcs themselves because they go to the Halls of Mandos after death. That leads me to another question that is completely off-topic, but oh well. Do orcs go to the Halls of Mandos too or do they get thrown out in the dark with Melkor? After all, it wasn't really their choice to be born ugly and marred, Melkor did that to them. __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis