Did Arwen know? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

*Varda* · 07-23-2002, 04:55 PM

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And he answered: "because I believed you to be indeed Luthien Tinuviel, of whom I was singing. But if you are not she, then you walk in her likeness."
"So many have said," she answered gravely. "Yet her name is not mine. Though maybe my doom will not be unlike hers. But who are you?"

Did Arwen know she was going to fall in love with a mortal and become one herself? If so, how?

Elrian · 07-23-2002, 05:07 PM

The choice of mortality or immortality would be on her when her father decided to depart into the West as I have said before. Choosing to go with Elrond she would be counted among the Elves, remaining in ME she would be counted among Men whether she married a mortal or not.

Lush · 07-24-2002, 06:39 PM

Yes, Elrian, but simply choosing to hang around Middle Earth is a little different from falling in love and giving up all that you know for that one love. I think that in this particular passage, Tolkien hints at Arwen's wisdom and foresight, as well as the fact that she probably liked Aragorn from the start.

Elrian · 07-25-2002, 10:55 PM

Still, she knew if she stayed she'd be mortal for love or not.

Elendur · 07-25-2002, 11:37 PM

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The choice of mortality or immortality would be on her when her father decided to depart into the West as I have said before. Choosing to go with Elrond she would be counted among the Elves, remaining in ME she would be counted among Men whether she married a mortal or not.

Elrond only decided to leave Middle Earth after the ring had been destroyed. Right?

Quote:

And he answered: "because I believed you to be indeed Luthien Tinuviel, of whom I was singing. But if you are not she, then you walk in her likeness."
"So many have said," she answered gravely. "Yet her name is not mine. Though maybe my doom will not be unlike hers. But who are you?"

This quote was said a long time before the ring was destroyed. Right?

So Elrond hadn't even asked her if she was coming with him or staying in Middle Earth at the time she said that her fate might be the same as Tinuviel's. And this was also Arwen's first time talking with Aragorn, if I remember correctly. So I think she foresaw love between Arargorn and herself.

Correct me if I'm mistaken about any of this.

Elrian · 07-26-2002, 02:43 AM

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Elrond only decided to leave Middle Earth after the ring had been destroyed. Right?

Elrond would leave eventually, and his children would have to choose, he and his children knew this long before the War of the Ring. Elrond was told of this at the end of the First Age, when he himself chose to Eldar. In that quote Arwen says maybe, not that she will have the same fate. If she forsaw the love between her and Aragorn at their first meeting, you sure can't tell by her words. If there had been no love between them or no marriage, the choice would have still been hers to make and she still could have chose to remain and be mortal.

Eowyn of Ithilien · 07-26-2002, 07:24 AM

perhaps, but the fact that she fell in love with a mortal was certainly an influence! And Elrond, master of lore told Aragorn that, but for him, his daughter would never feel it necessary to "choose" as her desire would lead her to the West
perhaps these are just the words of a loving father...perhaps not

Lush · 07-26-2002, 10:35 AM

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Still, she knew if she stayed she'd be mortal for love or not.

I think it was clear that she would not have stayed had it not been for Aragorn. Why would she had stayed otherwise? To make sure that the niphredil was properly watered every day?

Elenna · 07-26-2002, 11:02 AM

I think she knew. That's the great thing about Tolkein's works - it's either love at first sight or it wasn't meant to be and everyone knows it. If only real life was like that...

Child of the 7th Age · 08-01-2002, 05:21 PM

Elenna ---

Regarding love at first sight ...... I don't agree that it is "always" this way in Tolkien. The prime example we have to the contrary is Eowyn and Faramir. Also, although we do not know the details of Sam's relationship with Rosie, one gets the impression that it may have developed slowly over trips to the swimming hole and other normal activities of daily life. That would seem to fit in more with their personalities.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

doug*platypus · 01-12-2004, 03:01 PM

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Though maybe my doom will not be unlike hers. But who are you?

She's totally flirting with the poor young man, feisty wee thing she is! [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] She might as well have said:

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Helloooo handsome! Now you're worth giving up immortality for!

Love at first sight, for sure. I think that maybe until that point she didn't know what her fate would be, but that as soon as she saw Aragorn it was sealed.

Lalaith · 01-12-2004, 05:07 PM

I always imagine her saying it slowly, and meeting his eyes as she says it...

Finwe · 01-12-2004, 06:53 PM

Let's not get into the graphic details, shall we? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Most Elves had some amount of foresight regarding their own fates, and the fates of their loved ones. I daresay that Arwen, being the daughter of Elrond, who was one of the mightiest Elves in Middle-earth, had some amount of foresight about herself. Also, she might have been compared to Luthien in looks before, so she could have realized that her fate could be somewhat like Luthien's also.

Gurthang · 01-13-2004, 03:30 PM

Yes, everyone who met her compared her beauty to that of Luthien. She may have thought it more than just coincidental. She began to realize that there was more between them than just good looks.

I think she knew her fate would have had something to do with staying in ME, but had not yet seen the reason for it.

And then she saw Aragorn, and would have done a backflip if she hadn't been like 200 years old already! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Angry Brandybuck · 01-21-2004, 08:27 AM

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That's the great thing about Tolkein's works - it's either love at first sight or it wasn't meant to be and everyone knows it

I read somewhere, but I can't remember where, that who an elf loves is predetermined in a way. There is only ever one person they will love and they know that person when they see them. I don't know know accurate my memory is.

I just remembered, though, that Finwe's first wife died and he remarried, something which couldn't happen if the above was true, hmmm...

NightKnight · 01-21-2004, 10:13 AM

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And then she saw Aragorn, and would have done a backflip if she hadn't been like 200 years old already!

More like 2000 years old. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Finwe · 01-21-2004, 12:06 PM

Angry Brandybuck, the tale of me and my wives is a very long story. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

What happened to Finwe was a very rare thing. Yes, he had been deeply in love with Miriel, and after her death, he was never the same again, but he somehow found comfort in Indis. I don't know if I would call it love, per se, on his part, but I think that he found comfort in her. Indis, on the other hand, probably loved him for a long time, but the relationship was probably slightly one-sided. Finding comfort in someone is not the same thing as being in love with them, although the two seem rather similar.

Lobelia · 01-22-2004, 05:24 AM

The Luthien-Beren comparison was pretty obviously deliberate on Tolkien's part. Love at first sight does seem common in his fiction, though an aristocratic thing - Sam and Rosie are peasants and have known each other for years; I got the impression Rosie was his girlfriend, perhaps even his fiancee, who pointed out that he'd had his fun and she'd waited over a year and it was time to get married, thanks. They are not the stuff of mediaeval romance, or meant to be. Faramir did seem to fall in love with Eowyn pretty quickly and let's face it, they were engaged after about a week! :-) Maybe one of those things you do when the world is coming to an end and there's this really nice person of the opposite sex in the next ward...

As for Aragorn, he was a romantic-minded boy when he met Arwen, day-dreaming about their mutual ancestress and suddenly, there she is, the woman of his dreams, in the flesh! Maybe Arwen had similar feelings, after all those people saying, "Did anyone ever tell you that you look just like your great-great grandmother, dear?" (g) and she felt that if she looked like Luthien she would probably fall in love with a mortal and lo, here was this good-looking mortal boy, obviously smitten, just like Beren...

Kalimac · 01-25-2004, 01:57 AM

Lobelia - Sam and Rosie were probably in that stage where everyone knows it's going to happen one day, but she couldn't have been his fiancee yet. In ROTK, Sam says that Rosie didn't like the idea of his leaving "But as I hadn't spoken, she couldn't say so."

For what Arwen says, I'll admit, it always struck me as being gravely flirtatious, if that's possible. The fact that Luthien is the subject of conversation suggests that the "doom" she's thinking of is pretty specifically the doom of giving up her immortality for the sake of a man; after all, Luthien did not have the same sort of ancestry as Arwen and there was no question of losing her immortality otherwise.

I'll admit I am confused by what's being said about Arwen losing her immortality if she chose to stay in ME after Elrond left. Didn't Elladan and Elrohir stay after Elrond left? It's never said that they gave their immortality up, and it seems like the sort of thing that would be mentioned, considering the sacrifice and permanent separation it entailed.

Finwe · 01-25-2004, 10:37 AM

The impression that I got was that Elrond's children would have to make their Choice when Elrond left Middle-earth, they wouldn't have to leave with him. If they had wanted to be Elves, they could have remained in Middle-earth for a while, and perhaps, left with Celeborn.

symestreem · 01-25-2004, 03:16 PM

She didn't really choose to stay until she met Aragorn again in Lorien. I always pictured that line as kind of a "Hmm... you never know what will happen" line. Maybe she was just trying to make Aragorn feel better because he'd mistaken her for Luthien by saying he wasn't all wrong. If you ran through the woods calling the name of someone long dead, only ot find out it's not them, wouldn't you feel kind of stupid? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

07-23-2002, 05:07 PM	#2
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	The choice of mortality or immortality would be on her when her father decided to depart into the West as I have said before. Choosing to go with Elrond she would be counted among the Elves, remaining in ME she would be counted among Men whether she married a mortal or not. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

07-24-2002, 06:39 PM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Yes, Elrian, but simply choosing to hang around Middle Earth is a little different from falling in love and giving up all that you know for that one love. I think that in this particular passage, Tolkien hints at Arwen's wisdom and foresight, as well as the fact that she probably liked Aragorn from the start. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

07-25-2002, 10:55 PM	#4
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Still, she knew if she stayed she'd be mortal for love or not. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

07-26-2002, 07:24 AM	#7
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	perhaps, but the fact that she fell in love with a mortal was certainly an influence! And Elrond, master of lore told Aragorn that, but for him, his daughter would never feel it necessary to "choose" as her desire would lead her to the West perhaps these are just the words of a loving father...perhaps not __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

07-26-2002, 11:02 AM	#9
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	I think she knew. That's the great thing about Tolkein's works - it's either love at first sight or it wasn't meant to be and everyone knows it. If only real life was like that... __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

08-01-2002, 05:21 PM	#10
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Elenna --- Regarding love at first sight ...... I don't agree that it is "always" this way in Tolkien. The prime example we have to the contrary is Eowyn and Faramir. Also, although we do not know the details of Sam's relationship with Rosie, one gets the impression that it may have developed slowly over trips to the swimming hole and other normal activities of daily life. That would seem to fit in more with their personalities. sharon, the 7th age hobbit __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.

01-12-2004, 05:07 PM	#12
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	I always imagine her saying it slowly, and meeting his eyes as she says it... __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

01-12-2004, 06:53 PM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Let's not get into the graphic details, shall we? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Most Elves had some amount of foresight regarding their own fates, and the fates of their loved ones. I daresay that Arwen, being the daughter of Elrond, who was one of the mightiest Elves in Middle-earth, had some amount of foresight about herself. Also, she might have been compared to Luthien in looks before, so she could have realized that her fate could be somewhat like Luthien's also. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-13-2004, 03:30 PM	#14
Gurthang Sword of Spirit Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Oh, I'm around. Posts: 1,401	Yes, everyone who met her compared her beauty to that of Luthien. She may have thought it more than just coincidental. She began to realize that there was more between them than just good looks. I think she knew her fate would have had something to do with staying in ME, but had not yet seen the reason for it. And then she saw Aragorn, and would have done a backflip if she hadn't been like 200 years old already! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ I'm on a Mission from God.

01-21-2004, 12:06 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Angry Brandybuck, the tale of me and my wives is a very long story. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] What happened to Finwe was a very rare thing. Yes, he had been deeply in love with Miriel, and after her death, he was never the same again, but he somehow found comfort in Indis. I don't know if I would call it love, per se, on his part, but I think that he found comfort in her. Indis, on the other hand, probably loved him for a long time, but the relationship was probably slightly one-sided. Finding comfort in someone is not the same thing as being in love with them, although the two seem rather similar. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-22-2004, 05:24 AM	#18
Lobelia Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 150	The Luthien-Beren comparison was pretty obviously deliberate on Tolkien's part. Love at first sight does seem common in his fiction, though an aristocratic thing - Sam and Rosie are peasants and have known each other for years; I got the impression Rosie was his girlfriend, perhaps even his fiancee, who pointed out that he'd had his fun and she'd waited over a year and it was time to get married, thanks. They are not the stuff of mediaeval romance, or meant to be. Faramir did seem to fall in love with Eowyn pretty quickly and let's face it, they were engaged after about a week! :-) Maybe one of those things you do when the world is coming to an end and there's this really nice person of the opposite sex in the next ward... As for Aragorn, he was a romantic-minded boy when he met Arwen, day-dreaming about their mutual ancestress and suddenly, there she is, the woman of his dreams, in the flesh! Maybe Arwen had similar feelings, after all those people saying, "Did anyone ever tell you that you look just like your great-great grandmother, dear?" (g) and she felt that if she looked like Luthien she would probably fall in love with a mortal and lo, here was this good-looking mortal boy, obviously smitten, just like Beren...

01-25-2004, 01:57 AM	#19
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Lobelia - Sam and Rosie were probably in that stage where everyone knows it's going to happen one day, but she couldn't have been his fiancee yet. In ROTK, Sam says that Rosie didn't like the idea of his leaving "But as I hadn't spoken, she couldn't say so." For what Arwen says, I'll admit, it always struck me as being gravely flirtatious, if that's possible. The fact that Luthien is the subject of conversation suggests that the "doom" she's thinking of is pretty specifically the doom of giving up her immortality for the sake of a man; after all, Luthien did not have the same sort of ancestry as Arwen and there was no question of losing her immortality otherwise. I'll admit I am confused by what's being said about Arwen losing her immortality if she chose to stay in ME after Elrond left. Didn't Elladan and Elrohir stay after Elrond left? It's never said that they gave their immortality up, and it seems like the sort of thing that would be mentioned, considering the sacrifice and permanent separation it entailed. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

01-25-2004, 10:37 AM	#20
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The impression that I got was that Elrond's children would have to make their Choice when Elrond left Middle-earth, they wouldn't have to leave with him. If they had wanted to be Elves, they could have remained in Middle-earth for a while, and perhaps, left with Celeborn. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

01-25-2004, 03:16 PM	#21
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	She didn't really choose to stay until she met Aragorn again in Lorien. I always pictured that line as kind of a "Hmm... you never know what will happen" line. Maybe she was just trying to make Aragorn feel better because he'd mistaken her for Luthien by saying he wasn't all wrong. If you ran through the woods calling the name of someone long dead, only ot find out it's not them, wouldn't you feel kind of stupid? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ A Gandalf-uncloaking-free zone.