The Witch-king of Angmar

[Impmog2001]

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The Witch-king is made out to be this terrifying figure. I personally think that while he may have been terrifying, it wasn't so much him that was terrifying, but the fact that he embodied Sauron's evil. The Witch-king, and all the Nazgul for that matter, are really rather weak and pathetic, only given power by Sauron.

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[Halbarad]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

I think you have a point in that the Nazgul embody Saurons evil but I think that you miss the point that his power was in terror- he had the men of Gondor ****ing themselves. As to them being pathetic, you might recall that they were all kings and probably pretty powerful men when they recieved their rings- especially the Witch-king of Angmar. Not being pathetic when they recieved the rings, they would have become even more powerful when they recieved the power of Sauron as well. Being the main bogey-men for arguably the most powerful figure in Middle Earth is pretty impressive- even given that you are a slave. Domination is power, so if your terror dominates men then you are powerful- end of story. A little long winded perhaps but I think that covers it...

"A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not."</p>

[Valros Barazhor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

You also have to take into account that they surrounded themselves with all sorts of evil, The men of Gondor were peeing their pants but that Fell Beast didn't help any.
Also the Witch-King did all sorts of horrible stuff in Angmar
unleashing plague, freezing rivers and sending armies to kill
his neighbors, as well as being a Sorcerer! Pretty bad stuff.
He was just unlucky to have a little Hobbit wielding a dagger
made for the specific purpose of killing him.
Cheers, Valros

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[jallanite]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

Somebody managed to steal &quot;every&quot; horse and pony in Butterbur's stable and lead them through the town and out one of the gates without anyone (except probably the Nazgûls' human assistants) knowing a thing had happened. Try doing that in real life without some powerful magic.

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[Halbarad]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

Being able to clothe oneself in darkness would be a pretty cool skill. And the fact that the horses would have been ****-scared of the Nazgul make it all the more impressive. Good call jallanite.

"A little people, but of great worth are the Shire-folk. Little do they know of our long labour for the safekeeping of their borders, and yet I grudge it not."</p>

[Mhoram]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> lets speculate..

&quot;He was just unlucky to have a little Hobbit wielding a dagger made for the specific purpose of killing him.&quot;

Do you think Bombadil knew when he picked out those daggers from the wights hoard?


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[Earendilyon]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: lets speculate..

Neh. I don't think so. Tom wasn't an almighty creature of some kind. He gave them those knives because he thought they might come in handy on their travels, full of perils and hbeing hunted after by every evil spwan of Mordor.

"For I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." </p>

[obloquy]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: lets speculate..

Then again...

Tom knew about the Ring and the Riders, and he undoubtedly also knew about the origins of the Wight's hoard. I think it's quite possible that Bombadil recognized the good fortune of the daggers the Hobbits found.

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: lets speculate..

I don't think Bombadil had any thing to do with choosing them with any purpose in mind other than they needed swords.

However like Gandalf once told Frodo, there were other powers besides Sarons at work, when it came to directing the history of the Ring.



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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

Taking the discussion back to the Witch-king:
The thing that used to terrify me about the Witch King was'nt so much his power or appearnce but more the fact that he used to be a great king or sorceror but know was nothing but a slave to his ring and ring master. There's something chilling about that degree of desperateness. The same way you'd fear a hopeless junky with a switch-blade or a syringe. You know he gets nothing out of his actions but continued suffering. The fact that Sauron kept the rings himself just made it even sadder. The Ringwraiths really had nothing.
Although I strongly doubt that's why the men of Rohan were so @#%$ scared of him.

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[Valros Barazhor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

Think of it this way, Sauron was a big part of the pure evil of Morgoth. The Ringwraiths were a small part of that. There is some pretty scary stuff going on when you lose the will to live and lose all sensation in extremities after you defeat him! Melted/dissolved a steel blade... and could stomach and control a fell beast... EVIL, PURE CONCENTRATED EVIL!
cheers,

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[Hunter Two One]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

&quot;He was just unlucky to have a little Hobbit wielding a dagger made for the specific purpose of killing him.&quot;

i'm not quite sure i agree with that statement. there is no weapon that can harm a nazgul -- only the nature of the wielder. as has been mentioned by the witch-king when facing dernhelm/eowyn, no man can harm him. seeing that a hobbit is no man and neither is Eowyn, the type of blades used by both did not matter much at all.



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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

I don't know. I'd be more inclined to think it was more the sword. I don't like the idea that the witch-king was killed by semantics.

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[Valros Barazhor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

Actually to quote the book:
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will&quot;<hr></blockquote>
So it was the blade that not only wounded him but made it possible for Eowyn to strike him down.
cheers

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[Hunter Two One]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

i believe the blade itself was destroyed, if i recall correctly. you're right in saying that it wounded the witch-king but it does not prove that it allowed the witch-king's death by the hand of Eowyn.

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[onewhitetree]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;it does not prove that it allowed the witch-king's death by the hand of Eowyn.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

I must cordially disagree.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Her shield was shivered in many pieces, and her arm was broken; she stumbled to her knees. He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes glittered; he raised his mace to kill. But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground.... Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle.&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Sounds to me as though Merry allowed Eowyn's final, finishing blow to occur. Had she been able to get it in without Merry's distraction, the Witch-King probably would have died anyway, but she was in no position to do so, fallen to the ground, in the direct line of fire.
Anyway, on the logical side of things, what was the point of Merry's doing that at all, if it wouldn't have made a difference? Surely you give the old man JRRT more credit than that.

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[Sharkû]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...&f=10&t=000025This slightly older thread</a> also deals with about the same matter, whether the blade's power was relevant for the demise of the Nazgûl and other Wraith stories.
And I still believe only the cooperation of both fatalistic courage (Éowyn) and the element of surprise (Merry) were able to achieve victory.

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[Hunter Two One]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

i believe i was misunderstood. i did not say that Merry did not allow the opening for Eowyn to strike. my reference to &quot;it&quot; was the Numenorean sword that Merry used... not Merry himself. Merry provided the distraction for Eowyn to strike. the balde Merry used only hurt the witch-king -- by no means would that sword have been effectual against it (the witch-king) had anybody else (a human male) wielded it.

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[Valros Barazhor]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> by no means would that sword have been effectual against it (the witch-king) had anybody else (a human male) wielded it. <hr></blockquote>

I disagree with this for a few reasons:
First, the whole no man can defeat me theory sounds like a Numenorean braggart(the WK himself) as no one probably tried to in Thousands of years and if they did they probably lost due to the power invested in him by Sauron.
Secondly, That blade is stated to have been made for the sole purpose of destroying the Witch king in the text of the book. This begs the question can Numenoreans make magical items which I believe was discussed in another thread. My belief is yes.
I think that if Merry had any other blade he would have done absolutely nothing to the Witch King. Instead his Barrow-blade broke the spell that kept his wraithly undead form cohesive and allowed Eowyn to strike him with an un-magical blade.
just my belief, Cheers

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[Sauron]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: The Witch-king of Angmar

I believe that it was many things that killed the Witch King.
1. I think that the main thing that really hurt him and perhaps the most important thing was the will of both of them. Merry had a great will power because of Theoden dying. Eowyn had great will power because she wanted to prove herself on the battle field and because Theoden died.
2. Hobbit and female. If we are to take what he said literally Eowyn would be able to hurt him. Merry definitely would have because he was not a man at all.
3. Merry's sword, it was made to take care of these things. I am guessing it was supposed to be used by a person that could have dealt a death blow but hey it did its job. It delivered a wound to him that I think broke his will and allowed Eowyn to finish the job.

I think it is the will that makes the difference here. I mean everything seems to be done by a force of will. When Merry thrusted his knife into the Nazgul the Witch King's will was broken. I don't know about the rest of you but I think the will is the most important thing and gives power to everything. Sort of like the green lanterns having to use will power to use their rings I guess.

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