![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
![]() |
![]()
One of the more interesting threads I’ve seen around here is Tolkien the Matricide. I had thought that I could simply bump that thread back up with a new post, but my thinking about the topic soon led me away from the initial intent and toward what I think is a new topic: Tolkien’s Problematic Fathers.
There’s no denying that the fathers in Tolkien’s works are better off than the mothers – the dad’s tend not be killed off! But on the other hand, the fathers do tend to be rather bad news for their children, or for their children’s friends and/or lovers. Elrond and Turgon, for example, made things pretty sticky for Aragorn and Beren simply because they didn’t like the idea of their daughters marrying Men. The examples from The Lord of the Rings are even more telling: Denethor: loves Boromir to the point where his son’s death drives the father mad; does not value Faramir who is, unmistakeably, the worthier son in many ways. Theoden: his son is killed while he is too busy being seduced or corrupted by Saruman; he ignores his duties to Eowyn and Eomer. Bilbo: Frodo’s adoptive father lands him into a whole peck of trouble by giving him the Ring. At the same time, there is a profound emphasis in the tale on the necessity of and for good fathers: Aragorn and Sam really and finally fulfil their roles as heroes when they become fathers. I would argue that Frodo takes on a paternal role toward Gollum in his guidance and protection of him, coupled with the clear mastery that he wields over the person who is, in many ways, an image of Frodo himself. Theoden is redeemed of his mistakes not so much by his reawakening by Gandalf, nor even by his success at Helm’s Deep, but by the way in which he finally reforges his relationship with Eowyn and accepts her as someone whom he can trust to lead his people. Which leads me to a rather wild theory, but bear with me: the battle between Good and Evil in Middle-earth is in some ways a battle between benevolent fatherhood and patriarchal control. Eru is a good father: he loves his children, gives them guidance and all that they will need to succeed and be happy, and then, when they are ready, he lets them have lives of their own. He feels sad when they make mistakes but he does not interfere, nor does he punish them or help them (except sometimes, when it is clear that they really do need his help, and that this help is deserved and will not diminish their freedom and independence). He is not an absent father, but an involved observer. Sauron (and before him Melkor), on the other hand, never wants to relinquish control of those he brings into the world; what’s worse, he doesn’t like the idea of anyone being an independent child of his and so he attempts to forcibly ‘adopt’ all the living beings he can. Without opening a whole different can of worms…one of the things that the discussions about Orcs and the possibility of their repenting always brings up is the idea of how much are they effected by their ‘upbringing’ under Sauron. In a way, we can look at the servants of Mordor as abused children who have been so battered that they cannot get out from under the violent patriarchal control of their domineering father: like all abused children they end up internalising the domineering gaze of their father (the “eye”) and even attempt to curry favour with their abuser so as to avoid further abuse. (I don’t normally draw connections between the text and the author’s biography, but in this case I can’t help but wonder how much of this might be a reflection of the fact that Tolkien began these stories of hobbits for his children, and that he wrote LotR “for” Michael and Christopher?) All of this might be a way for us to look at the nature of heroism in LotR: the way to be a hero in this world is to start thinking like a good father? Sam begins his journey with Frodo as a gardener and ends it as a father, and not just to the thirteen kids that Rosie has for him, but through the increasingly caretaking role that he adopts for Frodo. Frodo takes on, as I have already suggested, a paternal role toward Gollum. Gandalf acts in a paternal way to both Bilbo and Frodo, by teaching them, advising them and guiding them toward good decisions without forcing anything. Aragorn’s journey too, perhaps, is one from being a son (at his childhood home in Rivendell with his adoptive father Elrond) to becoming a father of Aldarion and of his people. So what’s going on here? Is the story really about the necessity of good fathers, or about the necessity of some kind of ‘balance’ forged between good fathers and good mothers – this latter idea is interesting in light of the Matricide thread. Is the tale upholding the idea of father-as-god or father-as-king? Is it working within and for a very hierarchical and patriarchal view of society with the father-knows-best authority-figures taking care of their child-like-inferiors? Or is there some other kind of father-child relationship being developed here? Is it really all about being a good father?
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 | ||
World's Tallest Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Where the view is long
Posts: 2,117
![]() |
Hmm I had never thought of it much.
Quote:
I don't know a lot about Tolkien's childhood, but if I'm not mistaken his own father died when he was three. Perhaps this had an profound effect on his ficitonal fathers. Quite a few of my friends in the real world have divorced parents and my best friend's father died when he was in fifth grade. I know that they have (hidden) thoughts of jealousy when my dad takes us tobogganing or to a theme park, or other stuff with the group of friends. While this doesn't quite explain everything, it seems quite plausible that the lack of a father in young Tolkien's life made big difference in his writing. I wouldn't to theorize on things like hidden anger against those who do have fathers, but it could be true. O and by the way... Quote:
![]() ![]()
__________________
'They say that the One will himself enter into Arda, and heal Men and all the Marring from the beginning to the end." |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Scent of Simbelmynë
|
Bound for the Straight Road I see, Fordim?
Congrats.
I was initially avoiding this thread, because I thought it must have been about the Dwarf-fathers, but I'm happy to see that this time I'm wrong. ![]() This is an extremely interesting idea. And one I'll certainly have to think about more before posting anything terribly well informed, but for now there are a few more fathers, more or less "good guys" who don't do well on your fatherhood scale. Hurin, while the curse on his children wasn't his fault, and perhaps he'd have been a great father if he'd been able to be around while they were growing up, I'm under the distinct impression that Turin might have turned out a whole lot better had he not wound up in Thingol's court as a fosterson. Feanor, look what happened to his kids! And mostly due to his direct influence. Sophia
__________________
The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me! Last edited by Sophia the Thunder Mistress; 01-28-2005 at 03:07 PM. Reason: adding bits, correcting other bits |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,451
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
this does raise a lot of issues - and Sohia has raised and interesting point. There is an awful lot of "surrogate" fathering going on throughout the books and it certainly isn't a clearcut case of "natural father good, substitute father bad" .
Despite the workings of Grima and Saruman, Theoden is a good substitute father to Eowyn and Eomer. Elrond, genuinely tries to do his best for Aragorn even though it would serve his interests not to - and don't forget he had Maglor and Maedhros as surrogate fathers for a while, which surely is off the scale for dysfunctionality . Yes Hurin's loss was catastrophic for Turin and Niniel but Denethor was destructive to his own son Faramir - it is his foil, Imrahil, Faramir's maternal uncle who reminds Denethor of the bond - although the belated realisation has its own near fatal consequences. Eol is even more destructive to Maeglin. Thinking about it, although mothers are so often absent there is a lot less surrogate mothering going on - Frodo, Eomer,Eowyn, Tuor & Aragorn all are received into households with no matriach (ok Aragorn has his mother til adulthood but she seems fairly marginal - he was raised by Elrond..)...and in Frodo's case into household which never had a matriach. I don't want to get too into the biography since I doubt greatly that that Tolkien wrote any of it consciously as an exploration of fatherhood or parenthood. But it is possible that he was influenced subconsciously by his own experiences as a son and as a parent. The atypical family set up was what he experienced - normal for him. The relationship between Bilbo and Frodo does not necessarily paralel tolkien's relationship with father morgan. However there are example of sons repeating the experienced pattern of parenthood - Denethor's favouritism of Boromir my be a reflection of his own father's relationship with Aragorn in the guise of Thorongil. May have to do a bit more research..
__________________
“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
![]() ![]() |
![]()
There are barely any female characters in the legend. And the relationship betwixt a parent and a child will always and forever be a fascinating story. There are so many interesting possibilities in this relationship and it is probably second only to that of lovers in fiction.
It's because of the lack of interesting mothers that we can focus on the many interesting fathers, when in truth it is all about parenthood in general.
__________________
Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Laconic Loreman
|
![]()
I'm surprised no one's mentioned Fengel yet, arguably (if not IS) the worst liked King of Rohan. He loved to eat and acquire gold (so he was gluttonous), fought with his marshal's and his children. Heck, Thengel left for Gondor and unwillingly returned to Rohan when Fengel died.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: California
Posts: 77
![]() |
This view of LOTRs is certainly very interesting; one that had never occured to me before. However, I believe that Tolkien probably did not conciously write about fatherhood. Not to say that it played no part in his writings, but I believe that Tolkien's aim was probably geared not just towards good fathers, but the virtue of good people. The role of the father may have been more important than that of the mother based on his own society's roles for women at that time, but he still manages to put in a few strong women in his stories. The strength and ambition of Galadriel, the wisdom of Melian, the devotion of Luthien and Arwen; it seems to me that Tolkien created a world where he would be able to show his audience what he thought was good, and what he thought was evil. Those who desire power and give in to temptation (Sauron, Sauruman, Melkor), which was represented by the One Ring, are the evil doers, while those who resisted the Ring were the true heroes.
I believe that the role of a good father in Tolkien's writings are really only a small part of a whole lot of ideology displayed in the novels about good and evil people.
__________________
The world is a great book, of which they who never stir from home read only a page |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |