The Men of the Sea.....

[Neurion]

...Send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel.

Stirring stuff, and one of my favourite passages in Unfinished Tales, or perhaps any of Tolkien's writing. Since I first read it I've been fascinated by the idea of steel-bows, and I've wondered at the range and power such weapons would've had had they ever existed, not to mention the strength required to draw back the string.

What would these weapons have been like? Would they possibly have been made of spring-steel, or crafted by some lost art unkown to the 3rd Age?

[Lindolirian]

I have always wondered about the technological abilities of the Numenoreans. Tolkien makes it rather clear that they were the on the cutting edge and were always much more advanced than any other Men and even the Elves of Lindon. This rapid growth of technology makes me wonder how after 3000 years they were still stuck with archery and wind-powered ships when in 2000 years this world has come from Roman warships, catapults and archers (who were in there time very formidable) to today's warfare technology including everything from gunpowder to un-manned aircraft that can destroy a target from hundreds of miles away.
This is were it becomes painfully obvious as to where the creator of Middle Earth stands technologically. Tolkien hated industry and even modeled Mordor after a factory that destroyed a favourite green area of his in England. Tolkien allowed the Numenoreans to be advanced enough to be better than everyone else, but no further because it would have contradicted his entire theme of the evilness of industry.
I'm afraid that your questions concerning the lost technology might remain unanswered because Tolkien wanted it to be lost. If you notice the Numenoreans were destroyed ultimately because of their pride in their accomplishments. The Drowning of Numenor was not only a case of the Valar punishing the rebellious Men, but it was the author hiding their controversial industry and altogether destructive works that he despised so much.
Now if you want to know more about neat weapons and such, you'll probably have to turn to the real worl and research some English longbows or Roman ballistas...

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

I have always wondered about the technological abilities of the Numenoreans. Tolkien makes it rather clear that they were the on the cutting edge and were always much more advanced than any other Men and even the Elves of Lindon. This rapid growth of technology makes me wonder how after 3000 years they were still stuck with archery and wind-powered ships when in 2000 years this world has come from Roman warships, catapults and archers (who were in there time very formidable) to today's warfare technology including everything from gunpowder to un-manned aircraft that can destroy a target from hundreds of miles away.
This is were it becomes painfully obvious as to where the creator of Middle Earth stands technologically. Tolkien hated industry and even modeled Mordor after a factory that destroyed a favourite green area of his in England. Tolkien allowed the Numenoreans to be advanced enough to be better than everyone else, but no further because it would have contradicted his entire theme of the evilness of industry.
I'm afraid that your questions concerning the lost technology might remain unanswered because Tolkien wanted it to be lost. If you notice the Numenoreans were destroyed ultimately because of their pride in their accomplishments. The Drowning of Numenor was not only a case of the Valar punishing the rebellious Men, but it was the author hiding their controversial industry and altogether destructive works that he despised so much.
Now if you want to know more about neat weapons and such, you'll probably have to turn to the real worl and research some English longbows or Roman ballistas...

Oh, I've done a good bit of research about English longbows. Actually, that's one of the reasons I started this thread, as the longest recorded shot with an English longbow was 487 yards in 1919, which really makes me wonder how far a longbow made of steel could shoot!

[Lindolirian]

Oh, I've done a good bit of research about English longbows. Actually, that's one of the reasons I started this thread, as the longest recorded shot with an English longbow was 487 yards in 1919, which really makes me wonder how far a longbow made of steel could shoot!

Wow. 487. Well, I don't know too much about those things, but steel would make quite a difference and I agree with one of your other questions: How much strength would that require to pull? Probably a machine, but who knows, the Numenoreans were very tall and proportionally strong, especially if they have been trained for years (as one might expect in the Numenorean Archer Corps).

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

I'm afraid that your questions concerning the lost technology might remain unanswered because Tolkien wanted it to be lost. If you notice the Numenoreans were destroyed ultimately because of their pride in their accomplishments. The Drowning of Numenor was not only a case of the Valar punishing the rebellious Men, but it was the author hiding their controversial industry and altogether destructive works that he despised so much.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with your statement there, but maybe I can articulate my view on the matter clearly.

I don't believe that Tolkien would have projected his dislike of Industrial Revolution-type technology onto the Numenoreans; for the most part this sems to be confined to the orcs, Sauron, Saruman, and the men who fell under their sway (though I realize this does include the Numenoreans under Ar-Pharazon).
In my opinion, the Numenoreans sum up Tolkien's view of Good technology (i.e. that which doesn't destroy the surrounding countryside) versus that of Morgoth and his heirs. They had giant monuments and great ships and soldiers clad in armor fashioned of Mithril and bows made of steel, but Tolkien makes no mention of smoke or factories or burning until the completion of Ar-Pharazon's corruption by Sauron, and after the Downfall, the Faithful carried many of the facets of their culture to Middle-Earth with them. Just think of the Argonath, Minas Tirith, etc.

The point is, I think, that it was the Numenoreans abiding fear of death that wreaked their downfall. Tolkien makes the point that the Numenoreans had nigh-on everything one could desire, almost limitless natural resources, including Mithril, a fair island in sight of Aman, freedom from sickness or old age, incredible longevity, safe haven from the wars and strife that plagued most of the world, in short, they were the most blessed of mortals, and yet, after an Age, they still were not satisfied. The inability to percieve Death as the Gift of Men was, I think, the root of the Downfall.

[Lindolirian]

I don't believe that Tolkien would have projected his dislike of Industrial Revolution-type technology onto the Numenoreans; for the most part this sems to be confined to the orcs, Sauron, Saruman, and the men who fell under their sway (though I realize this does include the Numenoreans under Ar-Pharazon).

You're right here, Tolkien didn't hate the Dunedain, but it does apply to the Kings Men and the ones who persecuted the Faithful. I was just saying that Tolkien made sure that the records of their industry were lost in the drowning because he didn't want thr Numenoreans to be remembered only for that.

[Mithalwen]

I am sure there are people around who know more about archery than me but surely modern bows used for archery are generally metal. I tried only a couple of times a long time ago with a shortish bow of very flexible metal that was easy to draw and probably a great deal less powerful than a traditional yew long bow, however my brother in law had a very powerful metal bow which was of a much heavier metal and had various tensioning arragements - but probably well within Numenorean technology. Despite being strong and 5"10 I could hardly bend this bow at all. B-inLaw was 6"4 so not quite Numenorean height but he could draw this relatively easily.

I am not very up on physics either but I imagine that the great Numenorean stature would allow longer bows and so presumably greater power?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lindolirian

You're right here, Tolkien didn't hate the Dunedain, but it does apply to the Kings Men and the ones who persecuted the Faithful. I was just saying that Tolkien made sure that the records of their industry were lost in the drowning because he didn't want thr Numenoreans to be remembered only for that.

Well said. I wonder if the skill to make the steelbows was lost in the Downfall, or if perhaps they simply stopped using them over the years because they were no longer as tall or strong as they had been?

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am sure there are people around who know more about archery than me but surely modern bows used for archery are generally metal. I tried only a couple of times a long time ago with a shortish bow of very flexible metal that was easy to draw and probably a great deal less powerful than a traditional yew long bow, however my brother in law had a very powerful metal bow which was of a much heavier metal and had various tensioning arragements - but probably well within Numenorean technology. Despite being strong and 5"10 I could hardly bend this bow at all. B-inLaw was 6"4 so not quite Numenorean height but he could draw this relatively easily.

I am not very up on physics either but I imagine that the great Numenorean stature would allow longer bows and so presumably greater power?

Well, I've always imagined that the Numenorean bows would have been made in the same pattern as a traditional English longbow, one piece with no cams or other devices to lessen the draw-weight, which would make for one heck of a weapon, as a normal wooden longbow can have a draw-weight of up to 200 pounds.

BTW, if your brother-in-law is 6'4" then he's exactly Numenorean average height. I'm 6'3" myself, so I'm just a little bit under; a short Numenorean if you will.

[Rumil]

Hi all,

The steel bow question put me in mind of an old thread about archery, here;-

Archery thread

(With plenty of practical archery advice, the story of His Highness Thulajendra Raja P. Bhonsle Chatrapathy and instructions for creating your very own mighty stave from rulers and elastic bands!)

It seems that steel bows were once used in India, but weren't as effective as the traditional composite bows and were really status symbols rather than weapons of war.

I guess the Numenorens could have used a steel version of an ordinary bow, or alternatively a crossbow, which is often constructed partially from steel.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Hi all,

The steel bow question put me in mind of an old thread about archery, here;-

Archery thread

(With plenty of practical archery advice, the story of His Highness Thulajendra Raja P. Bhonsle Chatrapathy and instructions for creating your very own mighty stave from rulers and elastic bands!)

It seems that steel bows were once used in India, but weren't as effective as the traditional composite bows and were really status symbols rather than weapons of war.

I guess the Numenorens could have used a steel version of an ordinary bow, or alternatively a crossbow, which is often constructed partially from steel.

Interesting, but I doubt that the steelbows were, in reality, crossbows. Crossbow quarrels are usually about twelve inches or so in order to fit into the draw mechanism, and Tolkien states that the arrows shot by the steelbows were over forty-five inches in length.

[Numenorean]

Just incase anyone is unfamiliar with the passage that Neurion is reffering to, here it is:

In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared. 'The Men of the Sea', it was said, send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel’; and in those days the great cohorts of the King’s Archers used bows made of hollow steel, with black-feathered arrows a full ell long from point to notch. UT p170

A 45inch arrow fired from a hollow steel bow by a race whose average height is over 6ft 4inches is going to travel a pretty sizeable distance. From what I've read, Rumil is right about there being a history of steel bows in India. With regards to feasible shot distances, apparently in '1798 AD - The Turkish Sultan Selim, witnessed by the British Ambassador, shot an arrow 889 metres ( 972 yards ), a record not surpassed for nearly 200 years.'
Given that the Edainic weaponsmiths who first settled on Númenór 'had with the teaching of the Noldor acquired great skill' in the arts of forging and smithying of weapons, I tend to envisage the hollow steel bows of the Númenóreans to be large, ornate and tremendously powerful.

[Rumil]

Aha !

makes sense to me, (shamefacedly admits to never having realised how long an ell was). I'm much happier with longbows than crossbows in the hands of the Numenoreans for some reason anyway. I must say that that Sultan must have been a hell of a strong archer, that's a really long way!

[Michael Wilhelmson]

It only makes sense, in that a steel bow would have far more tensile strength than a wooden one, and if designed properly, would be an exceptional weapon, second only to perhaps better metals, and the synthetic bows today.