The "if's" of the three Elven-Rings

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Ok, we all know that Sauron bound all the power of the great rings by chanting some sort of an evil spell & by knowing how many great rings exactly to enslave. Now supposing if he was totally oblivious to the existance of the Three, & left them out on his mojo in binding the great rings to himself, presumably, they would've been spared from the destruction of the One Ring. And if that happens, would the lingering elves would've stayed in Middle-earth knowing that the Three would still sustain them. What hypothesis can you come up?

[Lolidir]

that is a good question.

i must say that i am new to this forum thing and in some respect LOTR in general. i have read the books once but i know, well i can remember a lot more than a lot of others. i have tried reading The Silmarilion, but got tied up with books for school, so i wasnt able to finish. so i might not know as much as others but i am a very big fan and in time i think i will get up there along with the others.

well to give my opinion on the question.

if sauron had forgotten about the elven rings and nothing happened to them? well as elrond put it the time of the elves was over. i think it all depends on how much the elves would have gotten involved with the war and how many would have stayed, but thats talking about years and years of elves crossing over. ekves have been crossing over for many more years then just the time of the ring hadnt they? so in this case i think the elves would have continued to cross over depleting the numbers in middle earth. so in time i think the time of the elves would have ended, now it might not have been right then but as the new age begins and the race of men begins to rebuild the elves would slip quielty into the grey havens. so i think that even if sauron would have forgotten about the elven rings that the time of the elves would have still ended and they would pass fomr middle earth.

but like i said i havent read any other book than just the 3 and the hobbit so you might know something i dont and if so please enlighten me on it. this is just what i gather from the trilogy.

Making the rings was beyond the skill of the elves alone: they were made under Sauron's personal direction, presumably so he could weave his influence into thier very fabric. In many ways, they were an extension os Sauron's power. As Galadriel said, if the one ring was destroyed, the power of the elven rings would also be lost.

[gorthaur_cruel]

Greetings, fellow Gorthaur.

Ok, we all know that Sauron bound all the power of the great rings by chanting some sort of an evil spell & by knowing how many great rings exactly to enslave.

We do? I always thought that as Sauron taught the Elves how to make the Rings, he included a technique that allowed him to take control of it. It's as if Sauron gave them a program that the Elves editted a bit to make their own program, without knowing that there was a code included that allowed it to be easily hacked. So though Celebrimbor didn't actually use Sauron's help, his knowledge came from Sauron and so created it with the weakness built into the Ring-knowledge.

Of course, this is all just my speculation.

But even if the Three didn't fade, I think that the Elves would've eventually departed for Valinor. Remember that the Elves were already decreasing bit by bit during the Third Age. The loss of the Three only resulted in Galadriel and Elrond leaving, taking along much of their people.

[Lolidir]

[QUOTE=Lolidir]
as elrond put it the time of the elves was over. QUOTE]

after everything happened in the third age with the giant battles and everything the men were begining to emerge as the dominant race. and the elves would continue to cross over, for that is something they had been doing since before the third age isnt it? it was just a matter of time before they were all gone.

the other question is, What happend to the wood elves of Mirkwood? it doesnt ever say much about them. Gandalf had the other elven ring didnt he? so they were not bound to the rings fate. in fact they kept to themselves mostly. so i think that the elves of Elrond and Galadriel would have allg gone to the Grey Havens, but i think that the wood elves would have stuck around for at least a little while longer mainly because they keep to themsleves.

i hope i bring up a good point, as i have said i am new to this whole thing. doesnt hurt to try i guess.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

Greetings, fellow Gorthaur.



We do? I always thought that as Sauron taught the Elves how to make the Rings, he included a technique that allowed him to take control of it. It's as if Sauron gave them a program that the Elves editted a bit to make their own program, without knowing that there was a code included that allowed it to be easily hacked. So though Celebrimbor didn't actually use Sauron's help, his knowledge came from Sauron and so created it with the weakness built into the Ring-knowledge.

Of course, this is all just my speculation.

But even if the Three didn't fade, I think that the Elves would've eventually departed for Valinor. Remember that the Elves were already decreasing bit by bit during the Third Age. The loss of the Three only resulted in Galadriel and Elrond leaving, taking along much of their people.

Hey Gorthaur! Yeah ok, your analogy of code & hacking regarding the rings is actually agreeable. But supposing, by a mere chance of good fortune, that the Three were not shorn of their powers... I doubt the elves would forsake Middle-earth. Although the doom of mandos is very clear, the elven-rings block the weariness of time.

[Formendacil]

Even though Sauron never touched the Three, and even if you could hold him COMPLETELY innocent of their making (which you can't, since he seems to have instigated the whole Ring-making process in Eregion), the Rings, up to and including the Three, are of their very nature, by what they are designed to do, wrong.

The Three Rings, like all the Rings, were created, as far as the Elves were concerned, with the intention of "preserving" middle-earth. In other words, they were trying to hold back the tide of time, and keep things as it was. As it was at that point was with the Elves as the dominant species and the major overlords. The Elves were trying to stop their Fading, and the impending Dominion of Men, which they knew must eventually come.

The time would have come eventually for the Dominion of Men. The Music of the Ainur directed that it must come eventually, and it would seem likely as well that the Elves would eventually realize what a selfish and sinful thing they were trying to do in holding back time. As well as impossible. You can hold back time for a while, but I don't think that even the Rings would have kept the Elves in middle-earth forever. All that the Rings were doing was making it worse, because they were able to remain in middle-earth in a nearer-perfect state for much longer, hence (being Elves) they were able to become more attached to their lands, and thus when the time came to depart, much more torn about having to leave.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Ok I agree. So they were meant to fade for the doom of Mandos was inevitable.
But the weird thing is, Galadriel's ring intensified her longing for the sea. This was an unforseen side-effect (can somebody explain this side-effect?).
Some questions come to mind:

1.) Sauron being cunning, why didn't he do this (shared the lore of ring-making) in the 1st Age? He could've increased his power (perhaps to the level of Morgoth, since Morgoth was declining due to his excessive distribution) with this scheme.

2.) When Melian fenced Doriath with an enchanted girdle, did that girdle also protect Doriath from decays of time like that of Lorien (dual effects: preservering & protection against enemies)?

3.) When Sauron made the Great Ring, he put forth a major portion of his native power into it for it was said that the power of the elven-rings was very great & that which should govern them should be a thing of surpassing potency. So, I was wondering if the eleves did the same procedure, putting forth their native power as well. But if the Three were so mighty, I doubt that Celebrimbor's strength alone adequately supplied the Three's potency. Surely there must be more elves who poured out their essence. Anyone have an idea who these elves were?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Ok I agree. So they were meant to fade for the doom of Mandos was inevitable.
But the weird thing is, Galadriel's ring intensified her longing for the sea. This was an unforseen side-effect (can somebody explain this side-effect?).

Well, the Rings were created to keep things as close to the elven ideal of perfect as possible.

It was not possible for it do to that completely.

However, after centuries of trying, Galadriel finds herself wanting that elusive perfect more and more.

Hence, the yearning for Valinor, which actually IS the elven ideal of perfect, except that they didn't realize that until about three ages too late.

That's my take on the situation, anyway. It would seem to make sense though, considering the facts.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Well, the Rings were created to keep things as close to the elven ideal of perfect as possible.

It was not possible for it do to that completely.

However, after centuries of trying, Galadriel finds herself wanting that elusive perfect more and more.

Hence, the yearning for Valinor, which actually IS the elven ideal of perfect, except that they didn't realize that until about three ages too late.

That's my take on the situation, anyway. It would seem to make sense though, considering the facts.

But if what you say is true, why would she desire the Great Ring... seeking to supplant the Dark Lord (before she passed the test). Why would she be so troubled with the idea that her realm could possibly fade if her longing was towards the sea?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

But if what you say is true, why would she desire the Great Ring... seeking to supplant the Dark Lord (before she passed the test).

Galadriel is trying to re-create "perfect" in middle-earth. That does not mean that she herself is perfect. Prior the very creation of the Rings, Galadriel's desire is a kingdom in middle-earth, and widespread power. This desire is still present in the back of her mind at the end of the Third Age. In addition, remember that the temptation of the One Ring for Gandalf would be "to do good". Perhaps for Galadriel the temptation it offers would be supreme power in middle-earth (well, duh!), in which she COULD re-create "perfect". She couldn't, of course, but temptations don't necessarily have to truths.

Fortunately, Galadriel has had an Age of trying to create "perfect" with Nenya. She realizes that to do so is impossible, and so is able to resist the temptation of the Ring, and pass the test.

Originally Posted by Gorthaur the Cruel

Why would she be troubled with the idea that her realm could possibly fade if her longing was towards the sea?

The Elves are very uniquely tied to lands that they live in. This bond would only be intensified by having had a measure of success in re-creating that land in the image you wanted.

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

1.) Sauron being cunning, why didn't he do this (shared the lore of ring-making) in the 1st Age? He could've increased his power (perhaps to the level of Morgoth, since Morgoth was declining due to his excessive distribution) with this scheme.

2.) When Melian fenced Doriath with an enchanted girdle, did that girdle also protect Doriath from decays of time like that of Lorien (dual effects: preservering & protection against enemies)?

3.) When Sauron made the Great Ring, he put forth a major portion of his native power into it for it was said that the power of the elven-rings was very great & that which should govern them should be a thing of surpassing potency. So, I was wondering if the eleves did the same procedure, putting forth their native power as well. But if the Three were so mighty, I doubt that Celebrimbor's strength alone adequately supplied the Three's potency. Surely there must be more elves who poured out their essence. Anyone have an idea who these elves were?

Anyone has the answer to these 3 Q's?

Galadriel is trying to re-create "perfect" in middle-earth. That does not mean that she herself is perfect. Prior the very creation of the Rings, Galadriel's desire is a kingdom in middle-earth, and widespread power. This desire is still present in the back of her mind at the end of the Third Age. In addition, remember that the temptation of the One Ring for Gandalf would be "to do good". Perhaps for Galadriel the temptation it offers would be supreme power in middle-earth (well, duh!), in which she COULD re-create "perfect". She couldn't, of course, but temptations don't necessarily have to truths.

Fortunately, Galadriel has had an Age of trying to create "perfect" with Nenya. She realizes that to do so is impossible, and so is able to resist the temptation of the Ring, and pass the test.

Although I partly agree with your reasoning... I have some input of my own. I think that Galadriel was aware that she cannot replicate in full measure what the Valar had done & so I don't think she strove for perfection in that manner (just my opinion). I've finally come to a conclusion in regards to her lament in Lorien. Perhaps she saw her 2 fates in her mirror, the good & the bad. The good, being admitted to Valinor again but diminished. The bad, being the next tyrant of ME with the One Ring. It was said that Nenya, the Three, though not made as weapons of war, still enhanced the natural powers of its wearers & Galadriel had a gift f great foresight from the beginning, so perhaps this is what enhanced her foresight to see things more clearly & thus her heart grieves for the lose-lose situation. And what life would be there without the Mallorns as Haldir had said... were there any of these beautiful trees in Tol Eressea or Valinor?

[drigel]

My 2 cents for what its worth:

I think the only part elves contributed to in ringmaking was craftmanship. Even Feanor and the silmarils. I dont think any essense oozed out of them into their works.

Sauron in the 1st age was a part of Morgoths machinery. A high officer granted, but in this age his own natural abitlities were sufficient for his mission. By the second age, Sauron had seen an awsome defeat that (among other things) resulted in incredible destruction of ME, and his first taste of personal defeat by the jaws of Huan. The 2nd age we see Sauron as the Dark Lord - numero UNO. He needed more than what he could personally do to control the minds of men and elves, hence the need to craft the rings.

The girdle im not so sure. I need to research that, but I think it was for protection only. Galadriels ring caused no protection powers - only the slowing or abating of the effects of time.

It is an interesting notion that you have brought up. It definately brings up the elvish delima in ME. I think if your hypothesis played out, it would only temporarily (maybe 100-300 yrs..?../) delay the inevitable. The Long Defeat existed long before the 2nd age and the rings. It would eventually catch up with the elves, and probably wouldnt be pretty. I would see it as an culminating in a power struggle with mankind - who would of course eventually be supremely jealous and fearfull.

oh yea and mallorns came to ME from Numenor, which i would think ulitmately originated somewhere west of there