A dwarf as ringbearer?

[Nevtalathiel]

I was reading appendix A at the back of LORT last night and came across the following passage:

For the dwarves had proves untameable by this means (the rings). the only power over them that the Rings weilded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things...But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any dominion. though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

If the dwarves could not be corrupted by any of the rings of power, why wasn't a dwarf gives the One Ring to take to Mount Doom?

[Dwarin Thunderhammer]

I think a Dwarf would have made a good ringbearer. Much moreso than elves or men (maybe not hobbits). Even the elves wanted dominoins of their own, that's why some of the Noldor left Aman that and the whole jewel incident. Anyways men's spirits and bodies are somwhat weaker than the dwarves. I think that any man off less stature than Aragorn would have seccumbed to the power of the ring. Dwarves would have done a great job of taking the ring to mordor. They're small, they don't attract attention tothemselves when they need to be stealthy. They'r bodies could certantly have lasted a long time without food or water. Plus the Dwarf-Ringbearer wouldn't have given in to the ring. I think they are only outdone by hobbits in two areas. total innoncence, and that amazing power to always come through in a tight spot (enormous undrstatement).

Anyways good topic!

[Mhoram]

Excellent thread.

The only possible downfall of a dwarven ringbearer that I can see is "the Rings weilded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things"

Frodo said somewhere that he goes not to find treasure but to destroy one. If a dwarf's heart was inflamed by this, the most powerful of rings, would he be able to stay true to his mission. He might be so overcome with greed that he would forsake the mission and go looking to make his fortune. And even if he did get it to the cracks of doom, would he be able to throw away this wonderful treasure?

[Ancalime]

Sure, a dwarf would've made a pretty good ring-bearer. But would the elves have let that happen? Considering the usual animosity between elves and dwarves, I doubt that the elves would permit a dwarf to have possession of the One Ring, partially out of fear of what they might do with it. In that regard, a hobbit HAD to be the ring-bearer because the hobbits were totally neutral. They had been pretty much ignored, so they hadn't taken sides in any disagreements between the elves and the dwarves. Or at least that's how I understood it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kuruharan]

I think that what that passage is refering to is the impossibility of turning dwarves into wraiths like the Nazgul. No outside force could so dominate them and reduce them to servitude in that fashion. The rings could produce a lust for gold and treasure but little else. However, that passage was also just talking about the dwarven rings, not the One Ring. The dwarven rings were geared toward the greatest dwarven weakness, greed of gain. Somehow Sauron hoped to reduce the dwarves to slavery through means of exploiting this weakness.

Plus the Dwarf-Ringbearer wouldn't have given in to the ring.

I'm afraid that I have to disagree. While it may not have been such a particular pitfall of dwarves, I don't think that any of them would have been immune to the lure of the Ring anymore than anybody else. The desire for domination was not just a trait limited to one particular race. It seems to be one of the "Melkor ingredients" that is part of the Children of Iluvatar and Aule.

And even if he did get it to the cracks of doom, would he be able to throw away this wonderful treasure?

Probably no more able to throw it away than anybody else.

But would the elves have let that happen? Considering the usual animosity between elves and dwarves, I doubt that the elves would permit a dwarf to have possession of the One Ring, partially out of fear of what they might do with it.

One would hope that if the fate of the world was hanging in the balance and a dwarf was the appointed Ringbearer the Elves would be able to get over themselves and let him take it. I realize that may have been a forlorn hope, so it's probably best that it did not turn out that way.

[Mhoram]

The dwarven rings were geared toward the greatest dwarven weakness, greed of gain.

You sure about that? I thought all the rings were made by elves for elves. I know the poem refers to Seven for the Dwarves but isn't that just the way Sauron chose to distribute them? The Nine he personally gave to Men. The Three the Elves kept from him. Doesn't it seem strange that the Elves would make seven rings of power to give away to the Dwarves, whom they have no love for?

[Melian]

I think the Ring would have affected dwarves too. Maybe not by turning them into wraiths, but by making them so greedy that they wouldn´t be able to destroy it. Even more, a dwarf would put the ring on and go steal treasures from everyone! What I´m trying to say is that dwarves would be corrupted too, but maybe in a different way.
I have to say I like the explanation of hobbits being "neutral". We know how elves and dwarves are... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Congratulations on the thread! It´s great [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Niere-Teleliniel]

Just a thought: Maybe the ring wasn't given to a dwarf for the simple reason that the council saw that fate had 'chosen' for a hobbit to find it and a hobbit to inherit it, thus sealing Frodo as the ringbearer instead of Gimli for instance.

[Kuruharan]

You sure about that? I thought all the rings were made by elves for elves.

The Elven Rings were made for the Elves, the Human Rings for the Humans, and the Dwarf Rings for the Dwarves. In the UT it says that there was a difference between them. Sauron was the one who took the Nine and gave them to Men. The Seven had already been given to their recipients when Sauron sacked Eregion, but Sauron forced their locations from Celebrimbor. The Three were dearer to Celebrimbor and he did not reveal them.

I know that not all of that may be strictly canon, but I think that it shows that there was a distinction between the Three, the Seven, and the Nine other than that was just how the rings were given out by Sauron.

Just a thought: Maybe the ring wasn't given to a dwarf for the simple reason that the council saw that fate had 'chosen' for a hobbit to find it and a hobbit to inherit it, thus sealing Frodo as the ringbearer instead of Gimli for instance.

Bingo! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Mhoram]

You are probally right about the rings there, but it still seems just odd that the Elves would put time into making Seven rings of power to give to dwarves that would make them more rich. Just seems wierd.

[Merendis]

I think the reason a hobbit bore the ring was because tolkien chose the hobbit as a representation of the underdog. probably not the best suited for the job, but he was faithful and worked very hard. If the ring had been borne by someone who it owuldn't have power over, the symolism of the power of evil would have been utterly lost and the message wouldn't have ben the same. sorry for looking at this as something different than why the people in middle earth didn't choose a dwarf if that's what oyu were looking for

[VanimaEdhel]

Maybe if a dwarf had the ring, either they would have given into the power, or the power of the ring, itself, would have driven them into a greedy stupor. They could have run around randomly grabbing gold and silver and never gotten around to actually DESTROYING the ring. That would have been...to understate the obvious...bad.

[Glim Iceholder]

The Elven Rings were made for the Elves, the Human Rings for the Humans, and the Dwarf Rings for the Dwarves. In the UT it says that there was a difference between them. Sauron was the one who took the Nine and gave them to Men. The Seven had already been given to their recipients when Sauron sacked Eregion, but Sauron forced their locations from Celebrimbor. The Three were dearer to Celebrimbor and he did not reveal them.

I disagree. The Elves did not make the 9 for the men or the 7 for the Dwarves, that is simply the way Sauron choose to distribute; he chose to give The 9 to Men and The 7 to Dwarves. The Elves held The 3 dear because they were made completly by the Elves with no help from Sauron.

There were really no "Dwarf" rings or "Man" rings. The great rings of power( The 9, The 7, The 3) were all made by the Elves for the Elves, its just the 9 and the 7 were made with Saurons aid and he stole them back, corrupted them, and gave them out to make wraiths out of the bearers of them.

[Mhoram]

Glim, that's what I thought but Kuruharan spoke as though he had a source that says otherwise. I don't know, I only wait for a quote.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

That's interesting about the powers of the dwarven rings to inflame their lust for wealth. Is it that this is the only power the rings have over them, so that the same ring given to a hobbit or man would act upon them in a manner according to their race, or were the seven rings always associated with great wealth but intended to gather it for the elves, or were they corrupted by Sauron in such a way that they were particularly suited for the weakness of dwarves?

In other words, were those 16 rings identical in their powers? Or originally different from eachother? Or originally the same, but changed and corrupted into different types of rings to specifically ensnare the different races? Or simply acting according to the nature of the race of the one who wore it?

If there's no quotes to support (I don't think there's much on the nature of the rings) let's try logic to prove one or another of these.

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[Mhoram]

There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mirdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took posession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dum, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and not by Sauron; but nothing is said inthe present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into the possession of the Dwarves.] <-- Part in [] is commentary by Christopher Tolkien. -Unfinished Tales

UT is absolutly the least canon of all the published works. It was CT's first publication of some of Tolkien's notes and he himself has stated that he missed a lot of important notes of his fathers when compiling it. That being said. I would be willing to stand my logic on the situation up against any quote from UT. That logic being that the Elves were unlikely to create Seven rings of power to give away to Dwarves so that the dwarves would get richer.

The idea that Durin III was given his ring by the Elven-smiths is equally likely and unlikely, but in either case, nothing can be infered from it. Durin III was the king of Kazad-dum and was especially friendly with Elves for a dwarf. It was under his rule I believe that the West Gate to Hollin was built. He could have recieved a ring from the Elves and this wouldn't imply anything about the purpose of the Seven or the Elven intentions when making them, only that they felt Durin III was worthy of having one.

I'll also comment that in other writings it is implied that Sauron was upset that the Dwarves could not be conqured by the rings. This clearly indicates that it was HIS purpose that the Dwarves should have the rings. I would go on to suggest that if the rings were made for the Dwarves, the Dwarves would have already recieved them from the Elves and not from Sauron. But I concede, this is all my personally musings, though founded on texts and logic they be.

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Mhoram]

I concede that the Seven and Nine were probally different, just by the fact that they were always grouped in those categories. But whether they were different or not doesn't have any implication on whether they were made for Dwarves and Men or just for Elves.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

I agree with your logic here, Mho. It seems clear the rings had their own nature and powers from design.

It's also suggested elsewhere that the three were different from the seven and the nine (when someone asked Gandalf about the three being used as a weapon "they were created for healing and preserving" - my memory is vague but serves, I believe it was the council of Elrond). The fact the one ring had a specific power to bind the other rings, unlike the others, supports this as well.

I agree, given the history with the silmarils, it was very unlikely the Dwarven Rings were made for the dwarves by the elves. In fact, the verse of lore "three rings.." etc. was clearly written after the betrayal of Sauron. So it refers to his dispersal of the rings.

[lathspell]

A dwarf as ringbearer?... I like the idea too, although I don't think it would make the quest easier, but anyway the are the most resistant too dominion. But than Bilbo should have given the Ring too a dwarf instead if to Frodo, and that hasn't happened. The Ringbearers couldn't just give it away (except Sam but he only bore it a short while). Bilbo needs all the 'help' of Gandalf to let it pass on to Frodo. And in The Shadow of the Past (FotR - LotR) we find this:

'...He weighed the Ring in his hand, hesitating, and forcing himself to remember all that Gandalf had told him; and then with an effort of will he made a movement, as if to cast it away - but he found that he had put it back in his pocket.
Gandalf laughed grimly. "You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not "make" you - except by force, which would break your mind.

No Ringbearer could let the Ring go of his free will. The Ring himself decided. So I guess that even at the Council of Elrond, Frodo already was doomed to go with his burden.

Maybe if the Ring had come to a dwarf, it might have gone quicker or slower, easier or harder...who knows? But remember one thing: if someone else had found the Ring Gandalf most likely wouldn't be present from the beginning of the finding of the Ring for he knew from that day that there was something wrong.

'When did I first begin to guess?' he mused, searching back in his memory. 'Let me see - it was in the year that the White Council drove the power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of the Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared.'

[Kuruharan]

My bad on not putting the quote up.

That logic being that the Elves were unlikely to create Seven rings of power to give away to Dwarves so that the dwarves would get richer.
-and-
I agree, given the history with the Silmarils, it was very unlikely the Dwarven Rings were made for the dwarves by the elves.

I think that it is a point worthy of remembering that the Elves had been tricked into making the Great Rings in the first place. The true intent of the Rings was to provide Sauron a means of enslaving all the Free Peoples of Middle earth, that was not what the Elves thought the Rings were supposed to do. Thus, you would have to have Rings for all the Free Peoples in order for the scheme to work. Sauron had to get the Elves to make the Seven Rings for the Dwarves, otherwise there would have been a gaping hole in his evil plans. The difficulty of getting Elves to make Rings for Dwarves and Men may have been part of the reason that Sauron stayed and was more personally involved in their making. I think that it is quite likely that once the Mirdain were under Sauron's influence they would be open to any suggestions that he would make about how many and what kind of Rings to forge.

A note on how far under the influence of Sauron the Mirdain were; there is a tale that under Sauron's influence Celebrimbor overthrew Galadriel and Celeborn in Eregion, a very un-Elf thing to do (Even though this sort of thing seems to run in Celebrimbor's family). Although that story is from the UT, which is not strictly canon, it does give an indication into Tolkien's thinking about how susceptible the Mirdain were to the machinations of Sauron.

[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Orodhromeus]

If Sauron was able to forge the One Ring, there's no reason why he couldn't forge 19 other Rings to enslave the peoples of M-E. But he didn't for 19 Rings of Power were already forged by the Elves. After the One was forged, it was Sauron that attributed them to the races. My logic, no quote.

[Kuruharan]

But the forging the Rings of Power had been Sauron's idea in the first place, and "he guided their labors."

The ring verse is taken to presuppose the distribution of rings that Sauron believed was required to subjugate each of the major races in Middle Earth.

Now to me it would seem very odd if there were some "formula" for the number of rings of power needed to enthrall one race over another (humans require nine while dwarves take only seven). Obviously, for The Seven and The Nine Sauron had particular individuals in mind - though I don't know who might have been on such a list.

[Mhoram]

Obviously, for The Seven and The Nine Sauron had particular individuals in mind - though I don't know who might have been on such a list.

Guys if you are going to make statements about ideas that aren't fully accepted and well known you need to be providing quotes. I have never read anything that suggests the Seven and Nine were made with particular individuals in mind. Enlighten me with something Tolkien wrote?

Which is the more likely alternative?

• the rings were made (by the elves) some for dwarves and some for men
• there was some formula Sauron concocted for distributing rings among the different races
• Sauron had specific persons in mind to whom he planned to give rings
• They were arbitrarily divided up

[Kuruharan]

I don't know how the number nine was arrived at for the men, but the number seven for the dwarves was obviously chosen because there were seven kindreds of dwarves and the King of each House was intended to receive a ring. For men you have more of a problem because there were many more than nine kingdoms of men.

the number seven for the dwarves was obviously chosen because there were seven kindreds of dwarves and the King of each House was intended to receive a ring

Yes, that is my point.

ok, why was the west gate of moria made? because the elves of which made the rings, became friends with the dwarves, possibly because of same enimies (melkor, and then sauron). therefore, as a gift to the dwarves (before realising sauron's real purpose and before casting down their own rings), celebrimbor gave the 7 rings to the head of each house hold of the dwarves, thus, the " 7 rings for the dwarf lords in their halls of stone " comes into place.

[Wormtongue]

A Dwarf's lust for gold and riches is well expressed in "The Hobbit." Thorin Oakenshield's quest to destroy Smaug and gain the treasure "Under the Mountain" at ANY cost is a just example of the love of all that glitters. If the corrupting power of "the ring" is put into play, the Dwarves would like as not attempt a conquering unsurpassed by the races of Middle Earth. Dwarves may be stout and full of pride and will, but this, exploited by the ring, would be entirely too much for a Dwarf to bear.
The Hobbits, being self-deprecating, humble, and not TOO prideful, seems to me the logical choice. Dwarves are just too damn conceited, as are Elves!

[KingCarlton]

Hail Wormtongue, well placed answer...

hmmm.. I have a few queries about Dwarves and their legends..maybe I will place it in a new topic...

Cheers !