Why Not Publication? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Ninth Valar · 11-07-2003, 01:28 AM

I've been reading around this forum and I know you have stated that there is no desire to seek publication for your revised Silmarillion (also that Christopher Tolkien has no plans to issue a new Silmarillion after the 2001 ed.). But with all the work put into this - and I'm sure at least someone involved has met the big CT - why not, provided Chris is still alive when you finish, sue to see this version published?

I know it may just be a fan thing to make the edit, but if it yields a better edition....

I just wonder.

Inderjit Sanghera · 11-07-2003, 08:59 AM

I know there is always dreaming, but the possiblity of such a thing taking place, or of C.T approving is slim. Unless we put a gun to head that is. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aiwendil · 11-07-2003, 11:52 AM

No one here knows Christopher Tolkien (unless whoever it is has a remarkable capacity for secrecy). It is exceedingly unlikely that the Tolkien Estate would sanction this project, or even approve of it. I say this based not only on general impressions of the way matters of publication work (though this, admittedly, is from one who has never had any experience with such things), but also on the position the Tolkien Estate has taken in other matters.

antoine2 · 11-07-2003, 06:29 PM

really,

we knows where live CT : in France, in a nice city in the south ...

Paris to the city of CT, it s just 5 or 6 h to go, but I don't imagine me to knock and to propose our new silmarillion ...

The Ninth Valar · 11-08-2003, 03:31 AM

Well, in fifteen years, CT probably won't be living, and his somewhat stringent policies may not be enforced so much. Don't get me wrong - I think what he's done with his father's work is nothing short of astounding and exemplary, but he seems to be a bit black and white about things.

If the project has merit, it will succeed, I believe. Old books are given new edits every now and again; just look at Ulysses, War and Peace, Moby-**** or numerous other classic works that are revised when "new" old manuscripts surface. Surely, since Tolkien intended for much of the material in debate to be included, if a way is found, shouldn't it be?

Olorin_TLA · 11-08-2003, 09:56 AM

CT is a cool guy, but he's been inadvertantly (or adveretently in cases) forced to "hide" himself, because he diddn't get a moment's peace from fans, some of whom apparently were of the stalker-mentality. Not that they stalked him (afaik), but you know what I mean.
This has also made him very defensive of hs father's work, which he loves.

Searching him out for the new Silmarillion could be a very bad move. He might after that not want anything to do with it.
On the other hand, he'll never know (proabbly) of it otherwise. And he might be for it, actually. We just can't tell.

My own personal advice is that when you are clsoe to compelting it, put up (and keep it there until he responds, if he ever does) an Open Letter to Christopher Tolkien, explaining why you're doing it, and how.

Aiwendil · 11-08-2003, 10:37 AM

I hope Christopher Tolkien is still living in fifteen years.

And I hope it doesn't take us fifteen years to finish this! (Though estimates have placed completion as far in the future as 2105).

I must say that I think the analogy to works by Faulkner, Tolstoy, and Melville is a bit misleading. Those are all completed works, put into a final form by their authors. To edit them seems more than a little unjustified. Tolkien never completed his greatest work (if he had, this project would not exist). I think this project is more justified, therefore. (And I realize you were not criticizing the justification for this project - quite the contrary).

Nonetheless, I see no hope of having it published. And, to be honest, I'm not really sure whether publication would be a good thing for it. As far as I'm concerned, this project is intended for us, our friends and family, and any fellow fans that manage to track us down.

Antoine: It never occurred to me that you and CT live in the same country! As hilarious as it would be to show up at his door out of nowhere babbling about a new Silmarillion (it's a scene I wouldn't miss for anything) I think you're right. That would probably hurt our chances rather than help them.

**lindil** · 11-11-2003, 02:53 PM

"
Well, in fifteen years, CT probably won't be living, and his somewhat stringent policies may not be enforced so much."

Like Aiwendil, I wish CJRT many long and healthy years.

I do however tend to agree that the only way this might ever see publication is if someone else [other than CJRT] has the final say. He already regrets his editorial work in the Ruin of Doriath [which I think he should receive only praise for] and would doubtless look on our efforts as largely at least, as cheeky as Bilbo writing songs about Earendil in his son's House.

If perchance all of the Tolkien scholars such as Shippey, Fleiger, Hosttetter and co. read it and thought it was worthy of publication, then it might have a chance.

However the further into this we go, and the further we contemplate major changes such as to the end of the Ruin of Doriath, the less likely it will be seen as anything other than of of dozens of possible 'Expanded Silmarillions', none more justifiable than any other.

This does not make it any less worthy imo, nor does do anything but increase the possibility that someone with close connections to the estate may try something similar [not that I wish it on anyone!] but of course should we finish this, whatever different changes someone/others would make they would certainly have the terrain well mapped out for them by virtue of our work. And we might even score a footnote in an 'Official Expanded Silmarillion'.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

**lindil** · 11-14-2003, 03:30 PM

I have been pondering for a few days now; why not an 'Annotated Silmarillion' if we have an 'Annotated Hobbit'?

OF course from out pov the ideal 'annotations' would be additional [canonical] material from HoM-E and UT and co., not various anecdotes, mythological, literary source information, bizarre drawings from obscure european editions and such [not that this is bad, the Annotated Hobbit is quite interesting actually].

Of course the immediate problem is that this really only an annotation if done in a way that is likely to be less than desirable a read.

But still the idea in general has merit, especially in light of the idea of Guy Kay's [CJRT's editorial helper on the QS77] idea [reently read in Tolkien's Legendarium' that the stories and such in HoM-E were better served as narrative material, than scholarly fodder. Well, since we have them one way, why not another?

So I think the idea of a

Silmarillion Companion or a Annotated Silmarillionor better yet utilizing our working titleTranslations frm the Elvish.

OF course for anything like this to pass muster with the estate [read CJRT] it could not have anything as 'creative' as the Fall of Gondolin, or speculative rewrites [even using JRRT's words] of the Ruin of Doriath.

But at the very least it might possibly be approved as a sort of dual column Silmarillion 'plus'

texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT
texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT
texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT
texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT
texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT

which is exactly how the annotated Hobbit is set up [well the left hand pages anyway].

This [or parallel pages] in fact would work very nicely for the overlapping Annals of Aman/QS material.

Another option is that smaller glosses [say Salmar's horn] could be inserted as italics into the text, or things like the Shibboleth version of the death of Amras could be either directly inserted [with italics] or sidebarred.

Finrod & Andreth and Druedain material could ideally be inserted chronologicaly,

A [re]combined Narn would only make sense as a replacment chapter[s] and Of Tuor and his Coming could of course be a stand alome chapter placed before the Narn, with the remainder of the Gondolin material coming after.

As appendices ideally there would be Laws and Customs, Osanwe-Kenta, and conclude with the Commentary on the Athrabeth as [possibly] intended.

Something like this might pass muster with CJRT. Especially if editorial editions were absolutely minimal and easily spotted.

OF course an ideal companion volume [II] would be the Narrative version of the 2nd and 3rd ages.

This would be pretty hard to get accepted at all, although if the first one was in some form or fashion accepted, after its completion would of course be the time to suggest it.

Anyway, that is some of where my thought has been lately.

Of course one great thing about this version is there would be no Rog to deal with... [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

Aiya · 01-02-2004, 11:37 PM

But can you really blame C.Tolkien for being so protective?

But perhaps, if completion was nearing while CT was still alive and kicking, perhaps approaching him would be the wrong approach. Perhaps approaching someone-else- who would be interested and also close to CT, but perhaps less protective. The only example I can think of now is Christopher Lee - a definite Tolkien scholar, who -met- -the- Tolkien, and I believe knows C.Tolkien.

Just a thought.

Aiwendil · 01-03-2004, 08:45 PM

I don't think that Christopher Lee and Christopher Tolkien are exactly old chums. Christopher Lee met J.R.R. Tolkien once. As far as I know, that was his only connection with the Tolkien family. And I don't think Christopher Tolkien confers regarding how to handle the estate with actors from Jackson's movies.

Again, I think the whole point is moot. This thing will not be published. And that is that.

Findegil · 01-06-2004, 07:24 AM

And if I look at the speed we are going, it could only be published by our far removed ancestors.
So we have not to bother about that time jet.

Respectfully
Findegil

InklingElf · 08-05-2004, 02:33 PM

I admire everyone's (all who have been working extensively on the project) decision in not publishing -- I know how it feels to be working just for fun -- and yet something tells me it's a shame that all of your work will go unnoticed by the general public. You don't have to force yourselves upon meeting with C.T. either.

Findegil you're right your pace is quite slow -- but in a few years who knows what you come up with?

You guys are great -- keep on keeping on

davem · 08-06-2004, 04:31 AM

Perhaps a good place to start would be Charles Noad, who is usually very helpful with this kind of thing.

Charles Noad put together a fascinating essay - On the Construction of the Silmarillion - included in 'Tolkien's Legendarium'
http://www.greenwood.com/books/BookD...d=1&sku=GM0530. Noad is a recognised expert & knew Tolkien. He also proof read some (all?) the volumes of HoME & knows Christopher Tolkien well . On top of that he's a very nice guy (so I can claim to have had a couple of conversations with a guy who is friends with CRT - how's that for name dropping!!)' who can be contacted via the Tolkien Society, where he's the archivist: http://www.tolkiensociety.org/ts_info/contacts.html. There's also an address for the Tolkien Estate there.

Aiwendil · 08-06-2004, 08:25 AM

Thanks, Davem. I've always enjoyed Noad's essay in Tolkien's Legendarium - and I'm quite impressed that you've spoken with him (enough that I shall overlook the shameless name dropping! - actually, I'm sure I'd drop his name as well if I could).

However, my position, at the very least, remains unchanged. I don't intend to take any steps toward trying to get anything published.

InklingElf - thanks for the vote of confidence. It's really pleasing and encouraging to find that other people are at all interested in what we're doing.

11-07-2003, 01:28 AM	#1
The Ninth Valar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The other side of over there Posts: 23	Why Not Publication? I've been reading around this forum and I know you have stated that there is no desire to seek publication for your revised Silmarillion (also that Christopher Tolkien has no plans to issue a new Silmarillion after the 2001 ed.). But with all the work put into this - and I'm sure at least someone involved has met the big CT - why not, provided Chris is still alive when you finish, sue to see this version published? I know it may just be a fan thing to make the edit, but if it yields a better edition.... I just wonder. __________________ This is not for you.

11-07-2003, 08:59 AM	#2
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	I know there is always dreaming, but the possiblity of such a thing taking place, or of C.T approving is slim. Unless we put a gun to head that is. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

11-08-2003, 03:31 AM	#5
The Ninth Valar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The other side of over there Posts: 23	Well, in fifteen years, CT probably won't be living, and his somewhat stringent policies may not be enforced so much. Don't get me wrong - I think what he's done with his father's work is nothing short of astounding and exemplary, but he seems to be a bit black and white about things. If the project has merit, it will succeed, I believe. Old books are given new edits every now and again; just look at Ulysses, War and Peace, Moby-**** or numerous other classic works that are revised when "new" old manuscripts surface. Surely, since Tolkien intended for much of the material in debate to be included, if a way is found, shouldn't it be? __________________ This is not for you.

11-08-2003, 09:56 AM	#6
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	CT is a cool guy, but he's been inadvertantly (or adveretently in cases) forced to "hide" himself, because he diddn't get a moment's peace from fans, some of whom apparently were of the stalker-mentality. Not that they stalked him (afaik), but you know what I mean. This has also made him very defensive of hs father's work, which he loves. Searching him out for the new Silmarillion could be a very bad move. He might after that not want anything to do with it. On the other hand, he'll never know (proabbly) of it otherwise. And he might be for it, actually. We just can't tell. My own personal advice is that when you are clsoe to compelting it, put up (and keep it there until he responds, if he ever does) an Open Letter to Christopher Tolkien, explaining why you're doing it, and how. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-11-2003, 02:53 PM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	" Well, in fifteen years, CT probably won't be living, and his somewhat stringent policies may not be enforced so much." Like Aiwendil, I wish CJRT many long and healthy years. I do however tend to agree that the only way this might ever see publication is if someone else [other than CJRT] has the final say. He already regrets his editorial work in the Ruin of Doriath [which I think he should receive only praise for] and would doubtless look on our efforts as largely at least, as cheeky as Bilbo writing songs about Earendil in his son's House. If perchance all of the Tolkien scholars such as Shippey, Fleiger, Hosttetter and co. read it and thought it was worthy of publication, then it might have a chance. However the further into this we go, and the further we contemplate major changes such as to the end of the Ruin of Doriath, the less likely it will be seen as anything other than of of dozens of possible 'Expanded Silmarillions', none more justifiable than any other. This does not make it any less worthy imo, nor does do anything but increase the possibility that someone with close connections to the estate may try something similar [not that I wish it on anyone!] but of course should we finish this, whatever different changes someone/others would make they would certainly have the terrain well mapped out for them by virtue of our work. And we might even score a footnote in an 'Official Expanded Silmarillion'. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ November 12, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

11-07-2003, 11:52 AM	#3
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	No one here knows Christopher Tolkien (unless whoever it is has a remarkable capacity for secrecy). It is exceedingly unlikely that the Tolkien Estate would sanction this project, or even approve of it. I say this based not only on general impressions of the way matters of publication work (though this, admittedly, is from one who has never had any experience with such things), but also on the position the Tolkien Estate has taken in other matters.

11-07-2003, 06:29 PM	#4
antoine2 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 41	really, we knows where live CT : in France, in a nice city in the south ... Paris to the city of CT, it s just 5 or 6 h to go, but I don't imagine me to knock and to propose our new silmarillion ...

11-08-2003, 10:37 AM	#7
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I hope Christopher Tolkien is still living in fifteen years. And I hope it doesn't take us fifteen years to finish this! (Though estimates have placed completion as far in the future as 2105). I must say that I think the analogy to works by Faulkner, Tolstoy, and Melville is a bit misleading. Those are all completed works, put into a final form by their authors. To edit them seems more than a little unjustified. Tolkien never completed his greatest work (if he had, this project would not exist). I think this project is more justified, therefore. (And I realize you were not criticizing the justification for this project - quite the contrary). Nonetheless, I see no hope of having it published. And, to be honest, I'm not really sure whether publication would be a good thing for it. As far as I'm concerned, this project is intended for us, our friends and family, and any fellow fans that manage to track us down. Antoine: It never occurred to me that you and CT live in the same country! As hilarious as it would be to show up at his door out of nowhere babbling about a new Silmarillion (it's a scene I wouldn't miss for anything) I think you're right. That would probably hurt our chances rather than help them.

11-14-2003, 03:30 PM	#9
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	I have been pondering for a few days now; why not an 'Annotated Silmarillion' if we have an 'Annotated Hobbit'? OF course from out pov the ideal 'annotations' would be additional [canonical] material from HoM-E and UT and co., not various anecdotes, mythological, literary source information, bizarre drawings from obscure european editions and such [not that this is bad, the Annotated Hobbit is quite interesting actually]. Of course the immediate problem is that this really only an annotation if done in a way that is likely to be less than desirable a read. But still the idea in general has merit, especially in light of the idea of Guy Kay's [CJRT's editorial helper on the QS77] idea [reently read in Tolkien's Legendarium' that the stories and such in HoM-E were better served as narrative material, than scholarly fodder. Well, since we have them one way, why not another? So I think the idea of a Silmarillion Companion or a Annotated Silmarillionor better yet utilizing our working titleTranslations frm the Elvish. OF course for anything like this to pass muster with the estate [read CJRT] it could not have anything as 'creative' as the Fall of Gondolin, or speculative rewrites [even using JRRT's words] of the Ruin of Doriath. But at the very least it might possibly be approved as a sort of dual column Silmarillion 'plus' texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT texttexttexttext......HOM-E/UT which is exactly how the annotated Hobbit is set up [well the left hand pages anyway]. This [or parallel pages] in fact would work very nicely for the overlapping Annals of Aman/QS material. Another option is that smaller glosses [say Salmar's horn] could be inserted as italics into the text, or things like the Shibboleth version of the death of Amras could be either directly inserted [with italics] or sidebarred. Finrod & Andreth and Druedain material could ideally be inserted chronologicaly, A [re]combined Narn would only make sense as a replacment chapter[s] and Of Tuor and his Coming could of course be a stand alome chapter placed before the Narn, with the remainder of the Gondolin material coming after. As appendices ideally there would be Laws and Customs, Osanwe-Kenta, and conclude with the Commentary on the Athrabeth as [possibly] intended. Something like this might pass muster with CJRT. Especially if editorial editions were absolutely minimal and easily spotted. OF course an ideal companion volume [II] would be the Narrative version of the 2nd and 3rd ages. This would be pretty hard to get accepted at all, although if the first one was in some form or fashion accepted, after its completion would of course be the time to suggest it. Anyway, that is some of where my thought has been lately. Of course one great thing about this version is there would be no Rog to deal with... [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [ November 14, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

01-02-2004, 11:37 PM	#10
Aiya Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 22	But can you really blame C.Tolkien for being so protective? But perhaps, if completion was nearing while CT was still alive and kicking, perhaps approaching him would be the wrong approach. Perhaps approaching someone-else- who would be interested and also close to CT, but perhaps less protective. The only example I can think of now is Christopher Lee - a definite Tolkien scholar, who -met- -the- Tolkien, and I believe knows C.Tolkien. Just a thought. __________________ "I was there the day Isildur took the ring - I was there when the strength of men failed."

01-03-2004, 08:45 PM	#11
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I don't think that Christopher Lee and Christopher Tolkien are exactly old chums. Christopher Lee met J.R.R. Tolkien once. As far as I know, that was his only connection with the Tolkien family. And I don't think Christopher Tolkien confers regarding how to handle the estate with actors from Jackson's movies. Again, I think the whole point is moot. This thing will not be published. And that is that.

01-06-2004, 07:24 AM	#12
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	And if I look at the speed we are going, it could only be published by our far removed ancestors. So we have not to bother about that time jet. Respectfully Findegil

08-05-2004, 02:33 PM	#13
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	I admire everyone's (all who have been working extensively on the project) decision in not publishing -- I know how it feels to be working just for fun -- and yet something tells me it's a shame that all of your work will go unnoticed by the general public. You don't have to force yourselves upon meeting with C.T. either. Findegil you're right your pace is quite slow -- but in a few years who knows what you come up with? You guys are great -- keep on keeping on

08-06-2004, 04:31 AM	#14
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Perhaps a good place to start would be Charles Noad, who is usually very helpful with this kind of thing. Charles Noad put together a fascinating essay - On the Construction of the Silmarillion - included in 'Tolkien's Legendarium' http://www.greenwood.com/books/BookD...d=1&sku=GM0530. Noad is a recognised expert & knew Tolkien. He also proof read some (all?) the volumes of HoME & knows Christopher Tolkien well . On top of that he's a very nice guy (so I can claim to have had a couple of conversations with a guy who is friends with CRT - how's that for name dropping!!)' who can be contacted via the Tolkien Society, where he's the archivist: http://www.tolkiensociety.org/ts_info/contacts.html. There's also an address for the Tolkien Estate there. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

08-06-2004, 08:25 AM	#15
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Thanks, Davem. I've always enjoyed Noad's essay in Tolkien's Legendarium - and I'm quite impressed that you've spoken with him (enough that I shall overlook the shameless name dropping! - actually, I'm sure I'd drop his name as well if I could). However, my position, at the very least, remains unchanged. I don't intend to take any steps toward trying to get anything published. InklingElf - thanks for the vote of confidence. It's really pleasing and encouraging to find that other people are at all interested in what we're doing.