Melkor/Morgoth his vision

[Elenanna]

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I'm confused about something. When Morgoth speaks to Hùrin he says that nothing shall be hidden from him, so Hùrin will be able to see like Morgoth, right? But if Melkor had nothing hidden from his sight then wouldn't he know where Turgon and Gondolin were hid? Anyone any ideas?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo

</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

Some one who not only willingly came into the Canon setion, but posted several times. Amazing. I do not think I am quaified to answer this question, meaning I have not the books or the quotes to back me up. Perhaps there is another.

It seems fate is not without a sense of irony.</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

Hey does ne1 know all the rankings?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000112>Elenanna </A> at: 3/8/01 12:36:15 am

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

Er... thanks i guess. <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> Does anyone have any ideas then?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.

</p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Greetings

Welcome to the Silm forum Elennana.
I think that your question is answered in largew part by Osanwe-Kenta [ see the books thread 'a review of JRRT's Osanwe-Kenta] This means 'transmission of thought' and was the means whereby the Valar and Eldar [and rarely - men] communicate mind to mind. There are numerous instances in the LotR although not always readily seen as such. The prime example though being the Keepers of the three rings sitting up late into the night in the forests of dunland, speaking mind to mind [many partings RotK]. How this relates to Morgoth is I postulate that Morgoth could know the minds of his servants -when he chose to . Not all of them all of the time.
But if he kept spies in Hithlum watching Turin and Morwen's house he would see what they did.

So this would not be omniscience, but clairsentience -dependent on his servants.

I would try and re- post this in the book section and i bet you will get a lively reply.
or can move the thread there if you like.

Great question !

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns<u> Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum </u> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Greetings

Welcome Elennana! I think that the clue is given in Morgoth's words. Hurin sees what Morgoth sees, but Morgoth cannot perceive what Hurin knows. To follow up on Lindil's reference to Osanwe-Kenta (an essay regarding perception and communication via thought, explaining a bit about how Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf &quot;spoke&quot; silently, mind to mind at the end of LoTR), two persons can communicate via thought only if both are &quot;open&quot; to such communication. Because Hurin's mind was not &quot;open&quot;, Morgoth could not read or steal from him the location of Gondolin, but could transmit to Hurin what Morgoth saw or knew.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Elenna

You know, people post threads in here quite often that should be in Books. Always new downsers. It must be the title 'Silmarillion' that makes them think that; notice al these questions are based here.
Rankings, Ellenna, are...
1-10 Newly deceased
10-25 Pile o' Bones
25-50 Animated Skeleton
50-100 Haunting Spirit
100-250 Wight
250-500 Shade of Carn Dum
&gt;500 Ghost Prince of Cardolan

After that you can become the Essence of Darkness, the Spirit of Mist, the Hungry Ghoul... whatever you want. Provided it's not taken. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">
You have a long way to go.


</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Elenna

ok thx <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> is there a way that i can tranfer this question to 'Books' instead of re-writing it there?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

Actually, come to think about it what you said about the ring-bearers doesn't really help. Because Melkor was much more powerful than the ring-bearers and he didn't need a ring to increase his power. It was through the rings that they could connect, but Melkor didn't need rings since he was a Valar not Maiar or elf. You might be right about the enemies watching Morwen, Turin and Nienor but why didn't he instantly attack Brethil rather than leting them wait in sort of peace using minor orc raids. It's said that Melkor had plans for Tùrin's fate, but I'm sure slaying the dragon Glaurung was not amoung them.

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

The Rings don't figure into this analysis. At the time the bearers of the Three had their silent conversation, the One had been destroyed and the Three had failed and were nothing more than pretty jewelry. The Osanwe-Kenta is an essay by Tolkien published by one of the linguistic journals. It relates that the skill of Osanwe was natural to the Valar/Maiar and elves and that some (or all men) possessed the skill to some degree if they knew how to use it.

The essay discusses specifically Morgoth's attempts to use Osanwe forcibly and relates that even he could not forcibly enter another's mind and take what information he wished or control the actions of an unwilling subject (though the attempt would cause great distress to the subject). His power did not overcome this obstacle and his inability to penetrate a &quot;closed&quot; mind caused him great anger which contributed to his hatred of the Elves.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

yes, yes. but that still doesn't explain why he said that hurin would have his vision and nothing would be hid from him right? well... if nothing was hid from morgoth then why couldn't he see gondolin?

</p>

[Elenanna]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

i agree... it still doesnt, it only explains that the three were able to comunicate and that melkor could penetrate minds, doesnt ne1 know? or is it just that melkor only claimed to have overall vision and meant that nothing about hurins family would escape his vision?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Melkor/Morgoth his vision

The idea was that all that Morgoth sees would also be seen by Hurin. Morgoth did not &quot;see all&quot;. The text in the Silmarillion strongly suggests that there were peiods of time when Turin, at least, escaped his vision (whether his &quot;vision&quot; was those of Morgoth's minions as Lindil suggests or otherwise). The distiction here is that while Morgoth could &quot;transmit&quot; his vision or knowledge to Hurin on a one way basis, he could not read or steal information from Hurin's unwilling mind. Think of it as a person tied to a chair with his hands free but with his eyes glued open in front of a computer monitor linked to a message board. The person reads the messages but unless he wishes to respond, other posters will not know what he's thinking.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[lindil]

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yea

I think Morgoth , the Valar and in a lesser measure the Eldar could see or maybe feel events and people that were happening far away.
Morgoth did not see Gondolin for a few [hypothetical] possible reasons:
-limitations of Osanwe / 'viewing' through stone [as in the case of the palantiri]
-a protective illusion or mist [as in Tuor's cloak] given by Ulmo to it and Nargothrond.
-To search mountain ranges w/ this manner of sight may have been like a needle in a haystack - especially as he long assumed Godolin was in the South.
- fate/the will of Eru


As a related aside the Palantiri were [imo] a crystallisation [no pun intended] of this ability, probably I would guess, Feanor's level of skill transfered [as the light of the light of the Tree's was]to Noldorin gem work [silima or otherwise].
This ability however took specific intent and awareness, such as Sauron extendinghis will over his armies and then turning his attention to the ringbearers and Mt. Doom,the distraction thus leaving his armies willless, for the moent. Osanwe Kenta and viewing work in this way , as I understand it.
For numerous other examples of 'viewing' see the Osanwe Kenta thread in the books.
I will try and post more excerpts from the essay of JRRT's soon.

lindil

</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: yea

ok, i think i get it now <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> finally...

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Elenanna]

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Sauron

ok i've got another question... what happened to saurons and sarumans spirits? because maia don't die, only their bodies do.

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[enep]

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Re: Sauron

Like you said, Elenanna, only Maia's bodies or forms that they take can 'die' or be destroyed, and I think that once these are destroyed they can never be regained (except in special circumstances eg Gandalf's reincarnation) and then their spirits are left to wander the world, present but idle so to speak.

In the case of Morgoth/Sauron, their spirits were sent or banished beyond the Circles of the World in the Void. Saruman was left to wander, however, and I think they are the only (known) cases of Maia losing their bodies (Balrogs?)

- enep</p>

[lindil]

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belated welcome to the board and a Note

Ongel please forgive my oversite, and welcome to the board!

Note from the Moderator: This thread has been moved from the Silmarillion Theories,Canon ... Forum

lindil

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 3/10/01 6:39:16 am

[Elenanna]

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Re: Sauron

yes, but in the silm sauron was threatened by luthien and huan to have his body destroyed if he didn't give them the key, and she said that he would have to sneak back to his master without a body, so that means he would be in controll of his spirit even without his body. And he'd made himself a new body anyways

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[lindil]

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deep in

'enep said &quot;and I think that once these are destroyed they can never be regained (except in special
circumstances eg Gandalf's reincarnation) and then their spirits are left to wander the world, present but idle so to speak.'

I think that the inability of the spirits of Maia to re-'incarnate ' is rare and strange.

sauron could not because of the power e had invested in the ring, when it was gone as Gandalf I think said , ' the greater power of his strength of old' was gone .

In saruman's case maybe his spirit would in time be able to reclothe itself, I think the dissolution by the wind from the west was a pretty bad sign.

As Christian theology [and others] teaches at death we see the truth of life , God as He is [as far as we can 'see'] and the truth of our lives.
It seemed saruman had a moment of repentance or realization [too late] as his spirit shook off the tramels of the flesh, and he looked to the west.

Maia were by nature spirit, and as such could live perfectly well w/out a body. However if they chose [like Melian] or were under obedience to be clothed [ as the Istari were] then the body becomes a more and more comfortable habitation. Some such as Melkor and Sauron feared [as did the demons tormenting the man among the stones and tombs in the gospel begged at least to be sent into a pig herd] being / out a body , then leaving becomes an unnatural fear.

There is more to say but much insight can be had from the review of the Osanwe-Kenta thread here in books, and in HoME X [sect 4[?] , I am falling asleep as I type so good night ...



Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: deep in

Ok Good night <img src=tired.gif ALT="/I">

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000112>Elenanna </A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/11/01 1:34:47 am