'This task is appointed to you' - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 12-17-2003, 04:15 AM

What does Elrond mean? Or when Gandalf tells Frodo that he was meant to have the Ring. I assume the one who intends it is God, Eru Illuvatar. But then Eru must know what the effect of the Quest on Frodo will be, that he will end broken by it, so broken he will have to leave the only world he has ever known or loved, to end his days among the Elves. So, what was Tolkien saying about God, & the way he works - in Middle Earth at least.

I found some things in John Garth's Tolkien & the Great War, reactions of the other TCBS members to Rob Gilson's death. GB Smith wrote two elegies for Gilson: Garth writes

"'One piece declares a stark view of Divine Providence. Gilson's death is 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured' to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who 'only canst be glorified/ by man's own passion & the supreme pain'

Garth goes on

Gilson had achieved the greatness of sacrifice but not,Tolkien wrote, greatness of the particular sort the TCBS had envisioned. 'The death of any of its members is but a bitter winnowing of those who were not meant to be great - at least directly'

Smith was not happy, apparently, with this statement, but, as Garth goes on to explain
'He had missed Tolkien's point, Death had prevented their friend from taking his 'holiness & nobility' & his inspirational qualities to the wider world. 'His greatness is in other words now a personal matter with us', Tolkien said, 'but only touches the TCBS on that precise side which perhaps ... was the only one Rob really felt - 'Friendship to the Nth power'.

The essence of TCBSianism was more than friendship, he reminded Smith 'What I meant, & thought Chris (Wiseman) meant, & am almost sure you meant, was that the TCBS had been granted some spark of Fire - certainly as a body if not singly - that was destined to kindle a new light, or, what is the same thing, rekindle an old light in the world; that the TCBS was destined to testify for God & truth in a more direct way even than by laying down their several lives in this war'"

OK, so what I'm asking is whether this whole thing of 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who canst
only be glorified by man's own passion & the supreme pain' - is this 'the grief talking' - ie, is it the words of a man trying to fit the death of his friend into some 'divine plan' in order to make sense of the event & at the same time still hold onto his faith, or is it what the TCBS, including Tolkien himself, really felt? Is this God who can only be glorified by 'blood outpoured' & 'man's supreme pain' the same Illuvatar who 'appoints' the task of destroying the Ring to one who cannot but be destroyed himself in the attempting of it?

pandora · 12-17-2003, 05:42 AM

I think your argument falls down because Frodo is not destroyed in the end, simply wounded to the point where he must leave to be healed. But all mortals have to leave eventually anyway and they do not normally live out their remaining lives in the Blessed Realm.

Frodo could have refused, too.

There is a lot of interesting material on this in Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring. In UT there is a fairly long piece where Gandalf, Frodo, and Gimli discuss the question of who was appointed by whom and the issue of free-will.

Morgoth's Ring also has a long section (Part 4) dealing with the Elves' idea of "estel" which is hope born out of a total trust in Eru's plan even when there is no way of understanding it. It's very interesting.

Finwe · 12-17-2003, 10:33 AM

It means that the same entity that "meant" for Bilbo to find the Ring, also "meant" for Frodo to have it, and to go on the Quest of Mt. Doom to destroy it. That entity presumably is indeed Eru Iluvatar, and being the All-Seeing and All-Knowing, he knew that Frodo would be the only one who would even remotely succeed in destroying the Ring. Then again, even Frodo failed, but another Ringbearer might have failed earlier in the journey. It was pure luck that made Frodo fail right in the Sammath Naur, otherwise, Gollum wouldn't have been able to bite off Frodo's finger and fall into the lava.

Morgul Queen · 12-17-2003, 02:56 PM

Isn't the actual quote (book-wise) 'This task has been appointed for you...' which basically, when told to Frodo, means that although he isn't forced to do this thing, he is meant to do it, it is there *for* him to do...if he wishes.

This is further elaborated on when Sam later talks about the 'Great Stories' and how in the best ones - the most meaningful - the Hero gets plenty of chances to turn back, to turn away from the quest that he has set out from, e.g. Beren going to get the Silmaril, Luthien going after Beren, Tuor trying to find Gondolin, Earendil searching for his parents and Valinor, Elwing searching for Earendil, most of thses are done out of love for another, it is the same with Frodo. He continues on, not for a romantic love but a deep abiding love of the Shire and its people, Sam continues on for Frodo. And in all these quests it is love that sees them through.

When all is said and done, Frodo is so deeply changed by what he had to endure to see the quest through that he can no longer rest in the Shire, he has almost outgrown it, you could say. In the same way a 10 year old cannot truly find peace in a Kindergarten, Frodo needed to 'Graduate' to a place where his inner-most needs could be recognised.

Finwe · 12-17-2003, 05:58 PM

Frodo could no longer remain in the Shire because he was wounded too deeply. As Gandalf said in Rivendell, he became merely a vessel, through which his fëa shone through. In essence, he no longer was a Hobbit, he was a higher fëa trapped in the hroa of a Hobbit. He couldn't stay in the Shire because he needed others like him around him (i.e. Elves). When he went to Aman, Frodo finally found that "transcendental" environment, and no longer felt so different.

davem · 12-18-2003, 03:38 AM

I can see what you're all saying about Frodo, & I agree to a point, but I was more interested in Tolkien's understanding of 'God'/Illuvatar. When Smith, in the midst of a terrible war, only weeks from his own death, speaks of 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured' to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who 'only canst be glorified/ by man's own passion & the supreme pain', is Tolkien of the same view?

In other words, I'm more interested in Tolkien's own concept of God, as He is presented throughout the Legendarium. Does Frodo's suffering 'glorify' Illuvatar? Is Tolkien saying it does, is he saying, as Smith seems to be, that this kind of suffering & outpouring of blood is the
only thing that can glorify God? What kind of God is Tolkien presenting us with in the Legendarium? Why is Eru so detatched, so distanced from events, only intervening directly sporadically, leaving things to the Valar?

Finwe · 12-19-2003, 10:58 AM

I don't think that Tolkien approved very much of organized religion, that had an extreme influence on its followers. He was a devout Catholic to be sure, but in his Legendarium, the only organized "religions" or modes of worship that exist are the ones that worship Morgoth or Sauron, which really tells you something. Even though Tolkien was a staunch Catholic, he knew that in some cases, it is better not to belong to an organized religion, but still have a set of morals to follow. I think he wanted to show that, that it is possible to be a good person, and still not be "religious," per se.

12-17-2003, 04:15 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	'This task is appointed to you' What does Elrond mean? Or when Gandalf tells Frodo that he was meant to have the Ring. I assume the one who intends it is God, Eru Illuvatar. But then Eru must know what the effect of the Quest on Frodo will be, that he will end broken by it, so broken he will have to leave the only world he has ever known or loved, to end his days among the Elves. So, what was Tolkien saying about God, & the way he works - in Middle Earth at least. I found some things in John Garth's Tolkien & the Great War, reactions of the other TCBS members to Rob Gilson's death. GB Smith wrote two elegies for Gilson: Garth writes "'One piece declares a stark view of Divine Providence. Gilson's death is 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured' to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who 'only canst be glorified/ by man's own passion & the supreme pain' Garth goes on Gilson had achieved the greatness of sacrifice but not,Tolkien wrote, greatness of the particular sort the TCBS had envisioned. 'The death of any of its members is but a bitter winnowing of those who were not meant to be great - at least directly' Smith was not happy, apparently, with this statement, but, as Garth goes on to explain 'He had missed Tolkien's point, Death had prevented their friend from taking his 'holiness & nobility' & his inspirational qualities to the wider world. 'His greatness is in other words now a personal matter with us', Tolkien said, 'but only touches the TCBS on that precise side which perhaps ... was the only one Rob really felt - 'Friendship to the Nth power'. The essence of TCBSianism was more than friendship, he reminded Smith 'What I meant, & thought Chris (Wiseman) meant, & am almost sure you meant, was that the TCBS had been granted some spark of Fire - certainly as a body if not singly - that was destined to kindle a new light, or, what is the same thing, rekindle an old light in the world; that the TCBS was destined to testify for God & truth in a more direct way even than by laying down their several lives in this war'" OK, so what I'm asking is whether this whole thing of 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who canst only be glorified by man's own passion & the supreme pain' - is this 'the grief talking' - ie, is it the words of a man trying to fit the death of his friend into some 'divine plan' in order to make sense of the event & at the same time still hold onto his faith, or is it what the TCBS, including Tolkien himself, really felt? Is this God who can only be glorified by 'blood outpoured' & 'man's supreme pain' the same Illuvatar who 'appoints' the task of destroying the Ring to one who cannot but be destroyed himself in the attempting of it? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

12-17-2003, 10:33 AM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	It means that the same entity that "meant" for Bilbo to find the Ring, also "meant" for Frodo to have it, and to go on the Quest of Mt. Doom to destroy it. That entity presumably is indeed Eru Iluvatar, and being the All-Seeing and All-Knowing, he knew that Frodo would be the only one who would even remotely succeed in destroying the Ring. Then again, even Frodo failed, but another Ringbearer might have failed earlier in the journey. It was pure luck that made Frodo fail right in the Sammath Naur, otherwise, Gollum wouldn't have been able to bite off Frodo's finger and fall into the lava. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-17-2003, 02:56 PM	#4
Morgul Queen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dontgonearthe Castle Posts: 414	Isn't the actual quote (book-wise) 'This task has been appointed for you...' which basically, when told to Frodo, means that although he isn't forced to do this thing, he is meant to do it, it is there for him to do...if he wishes. This is further elaborated on when Sam later talks about the 'Great Stories' and how in the best ones - the most meaningful - the Hero gets plenty of chances to turn back, to turn away from the quest that he has set out from, e.g. Beren going to get the Silmaril, Luthien going after Beren, Tuor trying to find Gondolin, Earendil searching for his parents and Valinor, Elwing searching for Earendil, most of thses are done out of love for another, it is the same with Frodo. He continues on, not for a romantic love but a deep abiding love of the Shire and its people, Sam continues on for Frodo. And in all these quests it is love that sees them through. When all is said and done, Frodo is so deeply changed by what he had to endure to see the quest through that he can no longer rest in the Shire, he has almost outgrown it, you could say. In the same way a 10 year old cannot truly find peace in a Kindergarten, Frodo needed to 'Graduate' to a place where his inner-most needs could be recognised. __________________ Athrabeth is still doing the wave for Boromir the Disco-King Oh...and call me Morgy!

12-17-2003, 05:58 PM	#5
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Frodo could no longer remain in the Shire because he was wounded too deeply. As Gandalf said in Rivendell, he became merely a vessel, through which his fëa shone through. In essence, he no longer was a Hobbit, he was a higher fëa trapped in the hroa of a Hobbit. He couldn't stay in the Shire because he needed others like him around him (i.e. Elves). When he went to Aman, Frodo finally found that "transcendental" environment, and no longer felt so different. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-18-2003, 03:38 AM	#6
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I can see what you're all saying about Frodo, & I agree to a point, but I was more interested in Tolkien's understanding of 'God'/Illuvatar. When Smith, in the midst of a terrible war, only weeks from his own death, speaks of 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured' to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who 'only canst be glorified/ by man's own passion & the supreme pain', is Tolkien of the same view? In other words, I'm more interested in Tolkien's own concept of God, as He is presented throughout the Legendarium. Does Frodo's suffering 'glorify' Illuvatar? Is Tolkien saying it does, is he saying, as Smith seems to be, that this kind of suffering & outpouring of blood is the only thing that can glorify God? What kind of God is Tolkien presenting us with in the Legendarium? Why is Eru so detatched, so distanced from events, only intervening directly sporadically, leaving things to the Valar? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

12-17-2003, 05:42 AM	#2
pandora Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 60	I think your argument falls down because Frodo is not destroyed in the end, simply wounded to the point where he must leave to be healed. But all mortals have to leave eventually anyway and they do not normally live out their remaining lives in the Blessed Realm. Frodo could have refused, too. There is a lot of interesting material on this in Unfinished Tales and Morgoth's Ring. In UT there is a fairly long piece where Gandalf, Frodo, and Gimli discuss the question of who was appointed by whom and the issue of free-will. Morgoth's Ring also has a long section (Part 4) dealing with the Elves' idea of "estel" which is hope born out of a total trust in Eru's plan even when there is no way of understanding it. It's very interesting.

12-19-2003, 10:58 AM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I don't think that Tolkien approved very much of organized religion, that had an extreme influence on its followers. He was a devout Catholic to be sure, but in his Legendarium, the only organized "religions" or modes of worship that exist are the ones that worship Morgoth or Sauron, which really tells you something. Even though Tolkien was a staunch Catholic, he knew that in some cases, it is better not to belong to an organized religion, but still have a set of morals to follow. I think he wanted to show that, that it is possible to be a good person, and still not be "religious," per se. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.