*TTT - Faramir (David Wenham)*

[Estelyn Telcontar]

What do you think of Faramir and the actor who plays him?

[Sharkû]

I have heard a couple of opinions already. Except for one, they all fell into the category of "ruined. Utterly ruined." <BR>Without a doubt, I have to agree, and it is not Wenham's fault. [My personal reaction in the cinema was facepalming and commenting "What the?!" on his worst lines.] <P>There are two points of view from which Faramir in the movie can be considered. From the point of a Tolkien illiterate, you get a character which is almost to be expected in the pattern of men who are confronted with the Ring. People know his brother Boromir, they know Faramir as well already, since the differences are not there. I cannot see how that is any benefit to the movie compared to the real Faramir. If the only addition that can be made adds nothing to the picture, don't add it. Boromir at least got to redeem himself in the first movie. Faramir did not get that chance (hopefully, not <I>yet</I>).<P>More important, however, is that Faramir does not only not add to the picture, but destroys what is so intriguingly painted in the books. Why ever a good and interesting character has been changed into a bad and uninteresting one is beyond me.<P>If the nature of Men, especially that of Gondor, has to be stressed (and it should), it should fit the world described. The rôle of Faramir is very important to The Lord of the Rings, as he is the other side of the medal of which Boromir is one. Without Faramir, the ambiguity of the legacy of Númenor is wasted. <P>Faramir is arguably the most positively portrayed man next to Aragorn. He was a point of indentification for the author himself to an extent. Omitting all that would need very good reasoning. Changing it into the opposite reminds of Gandalf. For he who breaks a character has left the path of wisdom.

[Rimbaud]

I have not seen the film, but somehow that saddens me more greatly than any other discrepancy yet mentioned. Sharkû, your observations are highly valuable and valued, as ever.

[TolkienGurl]

Faramir was portrayed as a 'bad guy' and it really bothers me. He was supposed to be the opposite of Boromir- beset by the same temptation, yet overcoming it! Yet he says "The Ring is going to Gondor," or something of the sort. Frodo and Sam are taken to Osgiliath! I really don't understand WHY they did that. More drama? Hardly. It would be much more entertaining if it was done by the book. That way people could see that there was still hope, even in Men.

[Nerdanel]

I try to look at these movies for what they must surely have been; one of the most difficult adaptations to the medium of film that has ever been attempted. I commended PJ for the FotR because I was amazed at how much word-for-word dialogue was actually in the movie, plus the chapter titles from the book that actually became lines. And the changes that occured; I could see how they fit in the overall difficulty of reducing so rich a tapestry into a mere three hours of film time-characters had to be cut, scenes had to be adapted. And while it was different, it worked. <P>But I do not understand why Faramir was changed so drastically. I tried to rationalize it. I tried to reconcile it. The only thing I could come up with was that PJ was trying to illustrate visually the inner turmoil he was going through when presented with the Ring of Power and what it could mean for Gondor. But: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Without Faramir, the ambiguity of the legacy of Númenor is wasted.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What else can you say?<p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nerdanel ]

[Kalimac]

I hate to hear what's been done to Faramir; I'm going to see the movie tonight and am going to have to really grit my teeth for those scenes, I'm sure. The *only* thing that I can think of that they could mean by doing this is that they wanted to give Faramir a character arc, sort of like the one they gave to Aragorn (indecisive to decisive, instead of just plain old decisive like he was in the book). I don't know if you've ever seen the Tolksarc "Tolkien Board Game" where the "Faramir" card is described as "Doesn't do anything, but hang onto it anyway." They might have been thinking of him like that; instead of having gentle Faramir all the way through, let's start him off as a Boromir clone and then have him be Saved By The Love Of A Good Woman in ROTK. Which is a pity.<P>Sorry for all the burbling when I haven't even seen the movie yet. I'll be back afterwards, of course .

[obloquy]

I am disgusted.

[TolkienGurl]

Could you elaborate? Some reasons why you feel that way? <P>Just Curious

[Mintyztwin]

I agree: I am disgusted. <P>In the books, Faramir gives hope for mankind (along with Aragorn) by showing us that at least not ALL of them are weak scum tempted by the ring!! But now, words fail me. He is completly destroyed. He's not at all sympathetic to Gollum OR Frodo at the pool! And in the end EVERYONE in Gondor knows about the ring! In the book, just Faramir knew! (Right?) Also, when he finally does let Frodo go, it's more along the lines of, "Well, obviously, I can't keep it, 'cause the Nazgul are going to get it!" <P>In short, it was infuriating. I loved Faramir in the books! And now, alas! "He is fallen into shadow."

[Túroch]

I to concur, I am disgusted and I don't know what I can do to clense myself of the taste of such a travesty.<P>The butchery of Faramir is just one of several. He stood as a desreption of the Dunedain of the south. He showed that the blood of the men of Westernse still ran true in some. Not any more apearently. Farmir like Eomer has been destroyed, see this to here about poor Eomer's portayl <BR> <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001462" TARGET=_blank>http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=001462</A>

[TolkienGurl]

<B>Mintyztwin</B>, you hit the nail on the head!

[-Imrahil-]

This depresses me because I am about to see the movie soon. From what you guys say it sounds quite bad.

They ruined Faramir.<BR> That was my first comment after the movie was over. Faramir was the better brother, yet here he is the same, even worse, for the ring reaches him far before it ever did Boromir. Faramir, in the books, shows the good side of mankind, the side that people aspire, or should aspire, to become, not the side that most are. Not to say that Boromir is bad or anything (I’m belong to the ‘Boromir is good’ side), but Faramir is far the better man. Perhaps it could be the fact that as the younger there was never as much preasure to be worthy to become the next Steward. But that would go into another thread, I’d think. Other then the minor thing with Faramir I adored the movie, better then the first.

[Sharia]

Faramir was my hero and now............. I don't know what to say, they've ruined him. I loved Faramir for every thing he was and for everything he wasn't (but that Boromir was) I love how you (in the books) can sorta compare them both, see the similarities and the differences. Sorry if this doesn't make any sense, I'm just too upset to think properly (and this is 2 1/2 hors after the film finnished). I always felt I could kind of relate to Faramir because in the book he's the one that is most like me (personalitywise, I've never experienced any wars or anything) and now......he's just an arogante prick. What have they done to him! Ok, I'm gonna go and take all my aggresions out on some poor inosent tree and then I'll cry a bit.....Faramir......oh, Faramir....what have they done to you?..........

[Lindolirian]

Let me say this first: We are dwelling on the bad stuff in the movie. True, Faramir was ruined and Shelob misplaced, but it still was a good movie. I'm still trying to get over what they did to Faramir....

[The Barrow-Wight]

It seems to me that PJ used Faramir to simplify things in the next movie. By having Faramir bring the Ring to Osgiliath, the movie won't have to explain why Sauron doesn't see the Ring within the borders of his own lands. The books explain it well, but it would take a lot of extra footage to really show why Sauron was so preoccupied outside of his own borders and seemingly blind to the Ring. Now it will be clear why Sauron never thinks to look so near himself. His own henchman saw the Ring in Gondor! It will surely be in the hands of the King Returned (which I hope he sees early in the next movie via the Orthanc palantir).<P>PJ made things easier on himself at the expense of Faramir's character. We know better and still respect and love you, Faramir.

[Sharia]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Now it will be clear why Sauron never thinks to look so near himself. His own henchman saw the Ring in Gondor! It will surely be in the hands of the King Returned <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Isn't the reason that Sauron didn't find the ring because he was preoccupied with the war and that he simply didn't expect anyone to be "foolish" enough to try to destroy it? Sorry it's late and I think slowly at this time of the night, but why would Frodo have to go to Osgiliath, just one extra line (probably one of Gandalfs) could tell us why he didn't look within the borders of Mordor.

[AddictedtoRumil]

Ooh David Wenham he looks alot like Sean Bean he is so cute!

[Gandalf_theGrey]

<B>Sharkû:</B><P>* applauds your post in particular *

[Lindolirian]

Very well put Barrow-Wight! I am ashamed that I hadn't thought of it. Alas, I was too worried about the variation from the book. Suddenly I think what ole PJ was doing might have actually been okay. Argh...

[Diamond18]

Why make a pretense? Why call him Faramir at all? Just call him Boromir's Clone.<P>I like Boromir, but Faramir is supposed to be better. He is supposed to be a ray of hope in a dark and dismal journey. He is supposed to be wise and gifted with foresight and gentle and kind! Frodo and Sam were supposed to feel safe, they were supposed to leave Henneth Anuin feeling refreshed and equiped with strengthened resolve. They were supposed to be marvelling at the grace that allowed them to encounter an unexpected friend and ally.<P>David Wenham could have made a good Faramir. In the pictures I saw of him before, he had the gentle and wise expression of the true Numenorian that he is. But gone was that expression in the movie. His motivation was that of a predictable, weak man. He wanted to please his papa and send him a gift. The real Faramir would never be so pathetic at the expense of Frodo.<P>I can forgive other things about the movie or adopt the "it's a different median" consolation, but I can't explain away Faramir.<P>The reason Sauron didn't notice Frodo and Sam was because Aragorn looked into the Palantír and drew his attention away. The whole Osgilliath scene was idiotic, except that it included one of the few actually touching parts in the movie—when Frodo almost kills Sam after Sam has saved him. PJ obviously got the whole idea from the time in the Tower of Cirith Ungol where Frodo reacts rabidly to Sam having the Ring. Whether or not it was good Frodo characterization, I actually felt a tinge of emotion (which was a rarity for me in this movie).<P>Anyway, back to Faramir. When he finally decided to let Frodo go it made no sense. "Oh, I see that the Ring is really bad because you say it drove Boromir mad, and Frodo, you aren't looking too good yourself. Go get killed and have fun."<P>Speaking of which, I really, realliy missed the part where Faramir tells them about Boromir's funeral boat. In the movie he says that Boromir is dead, but how does he know? Plus, that would have been a very emotional scene to depict; Faramir wading out into the water to find his beloved brother dead. That would have made up for all the "You're coming to Gondor" crap at least a little bit.<P>All in all, the big problem is that there is nothing good to say about this creation of PJ's. Even Arwen whom so many people hate can be defended, but I don't buy any explanation for monsterizing Faramir.

[GreyIstar]

Yes he is different. But is he really different? I don't think it is Faramir being different but PJ placing more emphasis than Tolkien did on the corruptive power of the ring on men. It tempted Aragorn in the first movie so would it not be out of place to have it not tempt Faramir at all? That would make him more noble than the Noble King of Gondor would it not? And in the end Faramir proved to be better than his brother by letting Frodo go. Boromir undstood the ring after it was too late. Faramir understood it before it was too late.<P>However what will the Extended version do to his character?? Remember Galadriel seemed dark and edgy in the original version of Fellowship but in the Extended version we see her lighter side.<P>But I agree with the Barrow that it was most likely due to the fact that Sauron would assume Frodo would be taken back to Gondor instead of let go. So then again Faramirs actions while different than in the book yield the same result.

[Lush]

a) PJ's Faramir does, eventually, come to his senses, and decide to forfeit his life, even. <P>b) I am pretty sure that this character is bound to grow and develop by the last film ("character arc"-thanks for mentioning that, Kalimac). You can see it in his eyes.<P>c)David Wenham is stunning and looks <I>exactly</I> like I pictured Boromir's baby brother. Yess preciousss. Suddenly, I am not feeling that bad for Eowyn at all.<P>For the above reasons, I do not concur with Sharkey & Co. that Faramir was a "ruined" character. Bruised and stretched, yes. A few bad lines? Oh hell yes. Even <I>I</I> was wincing, and I am a decidedly low-maintenace Tolkien fan. But like a few of you said, I think both the extended DVD version of "TTT" and "The Return of the King" will, hopefully, clear up some of the mess. Could've been better though, could've been a tad better.<p>[ December 18, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Maikadilwen]

Whatever was wrong with Faramir, it definitely wasn't David Wenham's fault. He did a great job. <BR>But I really thought he was the decent one of the brothers.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Sorry about the technical problems that necessitated the temporary closure of this thread. We hope it is fixed now and are reopening it. Please report any new problems to me. Thanks!

[GreyIstar]

I just came from TORN's board and it was posted that Phillipa Boyens said that in the book Faramir was a static character and they wanted to give Faramir a journey in the film to find himself.<P>That being said I can now invision in the next film Faramir being questioned on why he let the ring pass between his fingers and him saying something like The Ring cannot save Gondor. It would have destroyed us all. Much like Faramir in the book would. And Denethor despising him and telling him he wish that Faramir had died not Boromir.

[Sharkû]

"If details are to be added to an already crowded picture, they should at least fit the world described." Letter 210

[Diamond18]

I can grudgingly understand their wish to have Faramir "less static" and give him room to grow instead of being picture perfect right off the bat.<P>But they went too far, much too far. Did he have to be hurled to the other end of the spectrum? Couldn't he have maybe, I don't know, just been a little more preoccupied with Denethor than in the book? Maybe at Henneth Anuin he could have shown some extra wavering but still stood fast in the end?<P>I'm just saying, if they felt they needed to make him start out as less and grow, there were other, less cruel ways to do it. I personnaly wouldn't have changed him a bit...grow schmo, let the other characters grow! But I could have forgiven a slightly weaker protrayal. They didn't have to bludgeon us with his new weakness.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

[Kalimac]

GreyIstar, interesting. So my guess was partially right anyway . Actually, come to think of it, Faramir's got a much stronger hand with Denethor the way it's portrayed here. Not just "The Ring cannot help us, or at least, that's what they said and what I felt, so I let them go," but rather "I almost did what you wanted, but I saw *for myself* what the Ring would do to its possessor/realized it was only evil/whatever." Granted, this probably isn't going to cut much ice with Denethor, but it makes Faramir seem a little less of a victim. So it could definitely work in ROTK. But oh, what I would have given to see that wonderful face say "Not if I found it in the highway would I take it..."<P>Diamond, I saw your post after putting this up - you're right, it would have been much better if they'd had him talking about Denethor more (and maybe thrown in a mention of that "your life will be forfeit" clause so we know what he's up against if he DOESN'T take them with him). I once, long ago, went out with a guy whose father was a very, very dominating personality and very Denethor-like in his harshness and his opinions that nothing his son did was ever good enough. It led the guy to do a lot of things to curry favor with him that otherwise he would never have done, AND (which is the point of the personal ramble) he talked about his father CONSTANTLY. If Faramir had mentioned his father twice or three times in the context of bringing the Ring back, we would have known all that we needed to about what he's struggling against and saved his original character a bit.<p>[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[GreyIstar]

Kalimac maybe in the ROTK he will say that having seen what the ring can do first hand. They have plenty of times took lines said somewhere in the book and have the character say them at a different time. Like Boromirs "It is a strange fate we suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing." That was actually said in the book right before he trys to take the ring from Frodo not on the mountain.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Well, here it is. This is the post that caused the technical shut down of the thread. Don't ask me how, because I don't know! I only know that after my edit, the entire thread messed up. Leave it to me!<P>My post had to be deleted to fix the thread. BW sent it back (thank you!) and suggested I cut and paste it.<P>So here it is again, and hopefully the post will behave a little better this time.<BR>***************************************** ****<P>I also do not like how PJ changed the character of Faramir. BW has a point, but I think that Sauron's inattention could have been explained in other ways than by taking a central character and misrepresenting him.<P>When Faramir declines to accept the Ring, he says one critical line to Frodo: <I>Not if I found it on the highway would I take it. </I> In my opinion, that sentence is the core of Faramir. And that core has been swept away. Nor do I feel that PJ's interpretation is an improvement even in strictly cinematic terms.<P>In the book, the heart of Faramir is his discussion with Frodo, which is spread out over three chapters. In those chapters, both the hobbit and the Man are represented as mature characters, standing firmly against the Shadow. The book Frodo shows a gentility, a courtesty, maturity, and intelligence which just aren't there in the movie Frodo, who is already dispirited and worn down by the Ring. Indeed, in the book, it is Frodo who guides and reprimands Sam for inadvertently spilling the beans to Faramir about the Ring.<P>There is no way that PJ could have had the dispirited movie Frodo converse with Faramir in the way the book suggests. It would have been totally out of character for him. In a sense, then, PJ's portrayal of Frodo as a victim of the Ring made it inevitable that there would have to be some kind of modification to Faramir, at least in terms of these chapters in TTT.

[GreyIstar]

Faramir will be Faramir of the book. I have seen it. I see it now. I have no doubt in my mind that is where he is headed after seeing the movie for a second time. I saw it tonight and watched him closely and you have to. What he says and what his expression is are quite often two different things. His expression always points to an internal struggle with his duty to his father and something he doesn't quite grasp yet. What he says seems to be what he wants his men to hear. Bind them! You will come to with us to Gondor! But looking at him that isn't what he is feeling. <P>He really is only tempted by the ring once, its obvious because it happens exactly like it did for Aragorn, Boromir, and so on. I think his struggle is more with the will of his father. He is also gravely saddened by Boromirs death and he does seem upset that the Hobbits don't bring any news. What I saw was a Faramir like he was in the book for but an instant when he is questioning Frodo and Sam is getting nervous. Drawn out no doubt much more in the movie. But finally you see the Noble Faramir as he boldly lets Frodo go arriving to the same decision that the Ring is evil and it is what took Boromir to his death. In the book this happens in a shorter time and a less dramatic way. It is Sam telling him what happened to his brother that clinches the decision which in part is what does it in the book.<P>I thought it was quite interesting way of dramatically putting on screen. Definately makes you say Yeah!! When he says "Then it is forfeit!" It could however use some extended scenes because you do have to watch closely to catch everything. I just actually reread quite quickly the entire conversation Frodo and Faramir had and I see where they took for the movie but they also left stuff too choosing to focus on the beginning feel of that conversation, which was very edgy and you didn't quite see where Faramir was leaning, rather than the parts when they are alone away from his men.<P>So having analyzed that all, while I guessed yesterday, I know now that Faramir will be like he was in the book come return of the king.<p>[ December 20, 2002: Message edited by: GreyIstar ]

[mollecon]

Though I in general liked this movie, the changing of Faramir was the one thing that bothered me the most - I didn't perceive him as bad though, just a wimp!<P>But we're all biased - we read the books... I really would like to hear how someone who didn't saw this - preferably someone who know next to nothing about the books. And I do think some posters have come up with valid points as to the (possible) reasons for this seemingly rather drastical change of an important character.<P>Guess we'll have to wait for RotK to see...

[Schmendrick]

Well..what can I say? the one single thing that shocked me most in the film, was Faramir. He was one of my favourite characters in the book and had a truly golden heart. I just re-read the Two Towers before the film once again and I was really touched by the way Faramir behaved towards Frodo. He seemed to really understand the weight of his burden and see Frodo's real quality and wisdom. And then seeing him in the film?! I got the strangest feeling. It was like a nightmare, him suddenly behaving exactly like he shouldn't have!I almost started shouting at him in the theatre !<BR>This all leads me to another subject: why had they changed Frodo so much, too? I can't tolerate it. He shouldn't have been this possessed!<BR>I understand that it is necessary to make some changes- after all, you can't tell everything in three hours- but these changes were totally unmotivated in my opinion. <BR>I hope that they'll do something to "improve" Faramir in the last film, but for me it's too late. I just don't understand WHY they had to make these changes!!Somebody please give me a credible answer!!!<BR>p.s.I do not think either that this is the actor's fault.

[greyhavener]

"Never has a character been more unworthy of an action figure." This was my son's assessment of Faramir in the movie.<P>I agree with Child of the Seventh age who wanted to see "Never would I take it, even if I found it on the road." <P>I also wanted to hear him say of Boromir "I am not like him." <P>And to hear Sam say to Faramir. "You have an air about you that reminds me of Gandalf, of wizards." I actually saw a bit of that air in David Wenham had he been given dialogue to match it.<P>I think Peter Jackson has failed to believe in his audience. He has substituted conflict and action for mutually respectful dialogue to move the story along. <P>Along with Faramir, Treebeard and Theoden were weakened in how they were convinced to go to war. The integrity each of these characters display in conversations with members of the Fellowship in the book is diminished by the changes in the movie. Unlike Faramir, Treebeard and Theoden were not utterly changed in their personalities.<P>Jackson did a good job in "Fellowship" using words to move along the action, reveal character and impart information. He somewhat abandoned words for action in "Two Towers." That said, I still enjoyed the movie and could accept the changes except for Faramir.

[greyhavener]

"Never has a character been so unworthy of an action figure." This was son's assessment of Faramir. He hasn't read the books.<P>Up until now P.J. has been able to make changes that did not appreciably alter the integrity of the story or it's characters. <BR>Faramir is an utter departure.<P>I agree with Child of the 7th age who wanted to hear Faramir say "Not if I found it on the road would I take it." I also wanted to hear Sam say to Faramir, "There is an air about you that reminds me of Gandalf, of wizards." I felt David Wenham possessed the air had he been been given the dialog.<P>It seems to me that Peter Jackson did not believe in his audience enough to allow the story to be moved along with mutually respectful conversation rather than conflict and action. Not only Faramir's, but Treebeard's and Theoden's characters are weakened in the way that they are convinced to go to war in the movies. They both, along with Faramir display incredible integrity in the books as they engage in amazing, life-changing dialogue with members of the Fellowship. Words move can characters to action, provide information, and reveal personality. P.J. managed to use them well in the first movie but somewhat abandoned them for something more sensational in the second.

[greyhavener]

I've tried repeatedly to delete one post and leave the other but can't do it. Forgive the redundancy.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I thought he was off, but not that far off. He could have been improved by speaking about Boromir and Denethor more (extended edition). Remember that Osgiliath was under attack. Faramir hadn't made his decision yet, obvious choice to bring Frodo and Sam along with him. No, it didn't happen in the book but it's a slight adaptation.<P>He let Frodo go in the end, he forfeited his life. Plus, he drove away that winged wraith so the audience already knows he's a hero in the making.<P>Think back to last year. One word: Galadriel. Extended edition? It's going to work. I am confident.

[GreyIstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I thought he was off, but not that far off. He could have been improved by speaking about Boromir and Denethor more (extended edition). Remember that Osgiliath was under attack. Faramir hadn't made his decision yet, obvious choice to bring Frodo and Sam along with him. No, it didn't happen in the book but it's a slight adaptation.<BR>He let Frodo go in the end, he forfeited his life. Plus, he drove away that winged wraith so the audience already knows he's a hero in the making.<P>Think back to last year. One word: Galadriel. Extended edition? It's going to work. I am confident.<BR> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I concur but we are in the minority here. In the book he does say he must decide if is take the Hobbits back to Gondor or face a forfeit of his life. In the movie he seems to be still deciding when they come and say Osgiliath is being sieged so he is kinda forced to. I agree the fact that he would be killed came if he let them go came too late in the scene. It needed to be earlier.(Extended)

[Iarwain]

I would like to say that in my mind, Faramir's change of character was one of the lesser evils of the movie. I feel that his character, though his role was drastically changed, remained basically the same in the movie, and perhaps the change was more in the curcumstances which he faced than his portrayl. <P>GreyIstar, I would like to know where Faramir speaks about forfeiting his life (I must have missed that), because that casts a completely different image on him for me.