Who knows their trolls?

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Im not exactly sure how this is supposed to work but I really just want to know the answer to this question, so if anyone can help...

Does anybody know anything about stone/cave/hill/mountain/snow trolls? I just want to know like where they lived, and if they had any notable differences (im making a game and I wanted to put them in). So far, all I know is that they existed during the Third Age...

Im guessing from the names that the main difference is their niche, but really...whats the difference between mountain/cave/stone/hill...seems like thyd all ocupy the same area. It'd just be nice to know the actual place names that these races occupy. Thanks.

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Of all the people in ME, Saruman was likeliest to hve been able to have answered this question. From a biological standpoint (one which might have been utterly irrlelevant to JRRT's worldview, except that he had Saruman doing breeding experiments and alludes to the results), anything which can breed with anything else belongs to the same species. Bufo terrestris and Bufo quercicus are two quite similar sorts of toads but are members of distinct species.
This has interesting ramifications for the established cosmology of ME. Men and elves can breed. While their offspring are referred to as half-elves, implying that they are hybrids, none of the three can belong to different speciation. That is, the thing which typically prevented their breeding was extrinsic -- not intrinsic -- to their genetic make-up.
The origin of the Urukhai is debated, some arguing that Sauron bred them for improved performance but that they were (nevertheless) strictly orcish. Some argue that they were just brighter-than-average trolls (although clearly their much vaunted imperviousness to daylight would be thereby rendered problematic). Others claim that they were the offspring of experimental cross-breeding of orcs with men.
But this is the rub. It's not really cross-breeding in the biological sense. If, as all the myths tell us, orcs are merely an extrinsically distinct variety of elves then they are biologically members of the same species as elves and men. All breeding among members of this species are possible (and natural).
If you would like to call them races you may, but the term is essentially meaningless in contemporary biological practice. Different members of the same species (regardless of &quot;race&quot are more genetically similar to one another than they are to members of any other species. While there are phenomena of individual variation within species and while extrinsically discrete populations can arise, the proof of speciation remains always the potential to breed with any other member of the species.
Although nobody has tested the premise, it is not unreasonable to surmise that hobbits and dwarves might be two distinct species, as in the entire history of ME, there is no record of their breeding with any other species. Of course there might be social (extrinsic) reasons why this had not happened or had not been recorded rather than biological (intrinsic) reasons. But if the premise could be tested, we might prove that there existed some three or more &quot;man-like&quot; species in ME. One including hobbits, one including dwarves, and one including men, elves, peredhel, orcs and Urukhai.
This brings the rumination around to the question of trolls. I think that alashar's initial premise -- that trolls are all one species but have been &quot;artificially&quot; distinguished into classifications based simply on environment -- is as sound as our limited knowledge of trolls admits of.


</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000201>galpsi</A> at: 8/12/00 11:45:30 pm

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I think somewhere in the vastness of the silm, it says trolls were breed..created or whatever to be a knock-off of the treesheapards? Just to quick q's one is almost answered but...Where did hobbits come from? The other is, what happens to the souls of slain, or old dwarves I don't remembers if they went to my buddy mandos or not?

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Treebeard himself repeats the explanation that trolls were made by the Enemy as mockeries of ents, as orcs were of elves.
Per the other two questions:
I haven't the slightest idea whence came hobbits ultimately (but I like to believe that they were independently indigenous in ME).
As to the issue of dwarvish afterlife, it is contested. The elves -- who usually get the last word in JRRT's arguments -- maintain that dead dwarves returned to the earth whence they were created. The dwarves, however, maintain of themselves that Mahal gathers their souls to a special dwarf-ghetto in the Halls of Mandos where they await the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They hold that Iluvatar will hallow them and place them among the Children and that they will serve Mahal in the remaking of Arda. Also the seven fathers will return to their former identities and live among their own kin.

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

thank you

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[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Elves created the Ents, or so says Treebard. This is a lovely creation from Tolkien, who would not want to create life and give it to plants or animals. We all as children have spoken to animals or even plants and not gotten any replies.......ONE FOR THE ELVES.....

As for Trolls I do not know where they originated from, but they should be the result of some mutation from humans because I have a couple of guys at school in my class with worse table manners and attitudes than most depictions of Trolls.....

I possess an extensive collection of miniature figurines, mostly from the Lord of the Rings and that period, and I have two trolls. One male cave troll with a big doppy face and enormous hands and one female weilding a meat cleaver carrying dead bodies.

Any specific questions regarding Trolls?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

It was the Elves that taught the Ents to speak, but they did not create them. The Ents were spirit put into tree by Yavanna to guards the forest from the Children of Iluvatar.

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[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Trolls are usually seen as neutral characters, Tolkien brings them in as both neutral and at the command of Sauron.

How does Sauron manage to control them ? Is it promises of riches or are they very gullible?

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Put it this way; I would say that the average troll had an IQ of about thirty. Yes, they were gullible.

"Farewell! Wherever you fare, until your eyries receive you at the journey's end."</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Come now, 30? you should know better than that. It can't be any more than 25.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[gamegie]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't think someone with an IQ of 25 or 30 would be able to do what the trolls do in the hobbit or even in the LOTR.

I think maybe the Gate keeper thingy in front of the moria has maybe an iq in that region.....

Charming Humble Hobbit</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

With enough tentacles it suffices.

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[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

!!

Close reading of Chapter 2, The Shadow of the Past, reveals this line: &quot;Trolls were abroad, no longer dull-witted, but cunning and armed with dreadful weapons.&quot;

Sauron must have gotten 'em hooked on phonics in the eighty-odd years between Bilbo's adventure and the War of the Ring.

</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't know. Yes the trolls in the Hobbit were pretty stupid. But did you never get the impression that Tom, Bert and William might have been losers even among trolls? How do you suppose these three poor fools wound up so ostracized that they were living in a lousy liitle cave by the side of the road? Also, wouldn't smarter trolls have known that they were sitting on a stockpile of fine Noldorin hardware and done something more constructive then just leaving them to rust? The lousy goblins knew those blades on first sight.
You know, if space aliens came down to Earth, and the first thing they encountered was a monster-truck rally, they might not accord humans very high intelligence. I fear that Tom, Bert and William gave trolls a worser name than they deserved.

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[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

LOL, galpsi.

Also, it sticks in my mind that the Olog-hai were an especially nasty type of troll bred especially by Sauron in the Third Age. Uber-trolls, so to speak. No?

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Personally, I subscribe the idea that Uruk-hai were orcs, not trolls. Whether or not they enjoyed an admixture of mannish blood, I am not sure. I side with those who think so.

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[Saulotus]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Appendix F TROLLS states that some held they were giant orcs, but Tolkien states they were indeed Trolls.

I believe that you mixed up the terms Olog-hai and Uruk-hai tho dude. Uruk-hai were fer sure Orcs.

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Yes, Saulotus, you are correct. I was conflating the two designations which are clearly distinguished in the black-speech as discrete races (despite the overwhelming similarity of their descriptions and origins). Frankly, I have always been rather doubtful that were such things as Olog-hai. I acknowlege that their existence has been explained and yet I can't remember one. There are Uruk-hai out the wazoo in LotR and there are trolls and there seem to have been half-orcs. But I just don't ever remember an &quot;Olog-hai&quot; appearing anywhere. That is, I remember no Olog-hai if the distinction between Olog-hai and garden-variety trolls is to be maintained (as the distinction between Uruk-hai and garden variety orcs very carefully was). I may very well have forgotten. Where does one appear in the story?
And while you are correct that there is a clear explanantion of them in Appendix F, I take Tolkien at this word that the Appendices are supposed to be transcriptions from the Red Book, and therefore they are by no means infallible. Tolkien himself was often vague and contradictory about the evil races. I never forget his descriptions of the black men from southern Harad as &quot;half-trolls.&quot; With this kind of nuanced race-theory, I've never bothered to think that any of the monster stuff is best taken at face value. I don't distinguish any too carefully between trolls, orcs and goblins nor am I convinced that Tolkien distinguished them carefully. I suspect that he distinguished them at all for the purpose of introducing a little variety into the narrative.

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[Saulotus]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

&gt;&gt;That is, I remember no Olog-hai if the distinction between Olog-hai and garden-variety trolls is to be maintained... Where does one appear in the story?&lt;&lt;

Check out Pippin's daring deeds at the battle at the gates of Morannon.

Those Olog-hai were Sauron's latest brainchild, along with the Uruk-hai. The advantage for the Olog-hai (seperated by the dismissal of the term Torog) is that they didn't turn to stone in the daylight and were MUCH smarter.

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Yeah, I'm acquainted with the description of the Olog-hai, Mark IV. It's an example I'm seeking.
Not to quibble, but the troll that attacked Beregond, and which Pippin so valiantly slayed, was described as the &quot;troll-chief&quot; of a company of company of (garden-variety?) &quot;hill-trolls.&quot; Tolkien always calls Uruk-hai by name; he doesn't just call them orcs. Having made such a repeated point of this with orcs, why wouldn't he do the same with trolls?
One might argue that they have to be Olog-hai because they are fighting during daylight, but JRRT carefully set the scene. The Last Alliance approached Morannon by moonlight and though the sun was just rising in the East, it was veiled &quot;in the reeks of Mordor ... the gathering mirk.&quot; Not to mention that the trolls were in deep cleft of Cirith Gorgor, shielded from the pitiful remaining rays by the high-ground all around them.
I just don't think that this serves as the example I'm looking for.

</p>

[quam]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't really know,but I think that in Shadow of the Past
Gandalf states that trolls are no longer stupid but smart and withstanding sunlight.

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> and http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/nenya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Perhaps that is right. Are all trolls in the late third age Olog-hai? Did all of the Mark IIIs die out? Possibly, but the continued existence of punky lesser &quot;breeds&quot; of orcs sets a precedent against cataclysmic species change in ME. And what happens to trolls (and orcs and goblins) in the fourth age? Presumably they aren't all wiped out in the War of the Ring. Do they dwindle off into tiny hidden remnants like all of the smaller free-folks during the historical age of men?

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[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I don't know if your rationalization re: the trolls being shielded from the sunlight is convincing, Master Galbasi -- if this company of trolls were garden-variety, they couldn't have been expected to last for more than an hour even under an enshrouding fog. In The Hobbit, the trolls turn to stone at the first crack of dawn. Not too smart to send a vanguard that has a shelf life of sixty minutes at the outside. Also, if you skip ahead to the Field of Cormallen, you will see that &quot;the sun gleamed red&quot; at the same time that the cry &quot;The eagles are coming!&quot; is raised.

I agree that Tolkien seems to use &quot;orc&quot; and &quot;goblin&quot; interchangeably, but I think he did go to some trouble to distinguish trolls as the &quot;big guns&quot; in Sauron's arsenal. Sure, they don't get as comprehensive a treatment as orcs do, but that's only because orcs are, for a variety of reasons, a much more practical foot-soldier and so we have many more opportunities to meet them in the field.

</p>

[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

D'oh! Cross-posting!

In reply to your more recent question, galpsi, I hold with those who think that the dark races retreated into their hidden lairs to wait for the tide to turn again in their favor. &quot;Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow takes another shape and grows again.&quot; There have to be some baddies left for the Last Battle, don't there? Weren't notes for a planned sequel to LOTR found among JRR's papers?

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I believe the short-lived sequel idea even had the working title of &quot;Return of the Shadow&quot;.

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Well yes, Master Underhill, your penultimate post makes the case that all trolls must be Olog-hai in the War of the Ring. Or else that Sauron's shielding dark must preserve trolls from the sun.
Why? Trolls fight on several fronts. Does Sauron ship them there in packing crates? How do they get to the Pelennor at all? It is more than one day's (one night's) march from Mordor.
I would have argued (I did) that Sauron's sheltering dark was conceived for just this kind of contingency. The burning red sun in the sky is a sun compromised. Don't ask for a quasi-sientific optico-filtration essay; I lack the background to write it (and so did the Prof.).
The argument, as I see it, continues to rest on designations. And as another thread on this board points out, the Prof. was keen on them. I just don't remember seeing the term Olog-hai used in the story.
Speaking of rationalizations, I wonder if the Prof. didn't engage in some himself. He justified the superior light resistance of Olog-hai after he decided to have trolls fight for Sauron. It wouldn't be the first difficulty he had had to redact for in the process of telling the big story.
And I'm always wary of using examples from the Hobbit to clinch arguments about anything other than the Hobbit. Those trolls had to turn to stone at the crack of dawn for dramaturgical reasons. The ones in LotR needed to fight in battles and campaigns that transcended the duration of one night. I think that the the dramaturgical reasons came first and the rationalizations followed.
The radical change in troll phototropism seems much more absolute than the similar changes in orc nature. Of course the answer could be that lots of the old Mark IIIs still exist and that we just don't meet them. Lesser orcs could be bullied into daylight service against their inherent fear of the sun. Trolls just couldn't be bullied into daylight, so only the Mark IVs go to war. But I still think it odd that JRRT wouldn't have used his beloved words to distinguish trolls as he so obviously did with orcs. I agree that we get a lot more chances to see orcs, but it seems to me that there are enough trollish opportunities for him to have dropped the name (Olog-hai) if he had wanted to. As he didn't, I remain unconvinced that the race was integral to his thinking.

</p>

[Saulotus]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Well dude, the locations for Olog-Hai are given (Mirkwood and the mountains of northern Mordor). Cave-trolls are mentioned by name in Moria by Gandalf. Stone-trolls are mentioned when the fellowship confronts Bilbo's misadventure, (the fact that that at the time they are stone is like coincidental, I think as the HOBBIT calls them stone-trolls too). Ettendales are mentioned as Troll-country, and I postulated somewhere earlier that the term etten is prolly an old term for giant (gi-ent; an old area name held over from the early LOTR writings of Entish lands), and mentioned as having hill-trolls in that area in LOTR (which maybe these hill-giants that Bilbo mentions).

Seems to me that not all trolls are of the Olog-hai race if all these other trolls are mentioned by name and alive and kickin at the time of LOTR.

Here's like a sidebar to the dark thing; Appendix F states they could like stand the sun, but ONLY under the will of Sauron, not a natural trait. Of what exact meaning the term Twilight referrs to is prolly an open debate.

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[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

All of which I take as evidence for my point that Olog-hai don't have much real existence but were an editorial afterthought, a rationalization shallowly conceived as an analogy with the Uruk-hai, if not a simple conflation.

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[Mister Underhill]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Well, galpsi, I certainly can't refute arguments that point out that the prof's mythology isn't airtight. After all, JRRT himself realized post-LOTR that many elements of the mythos couldn't stand up under logical scrutiny and would require a comprehensive and fundamental overhaul to be made into a theoretically secure system (if such a revision was even possible, considering that LOTR was already out there). Considering your vast knowledge of all things Tolkien, you've probably already read Part Five of the HoME book Morgoth's Ring, &quot;Myths Transformed&quot;, in which the prof wrestles with some of the stickier issues (e.g., the nature and origin of Orcs, a topic which is particularly relevant to our discussion here, since the nature and origin of trolls are also mentioned, albeit with a characteristically less comprehensive treatment).

I was arguing more in a spirit of trying to make what's there &quot;work&quot;. If JRRT decided to invent the mention of the Olog-hai in Appendix F as a patch to upgrade trolls v1.0 to v1.1, then I'll download and install the patch in the spirit in which it's offered, and take JRRT at his word that Sauron's Mark IV's were a superior model and were probably the ones who fought in his campaigns.

But you're right that the prof was a bit lazy in his conception of the troll-folk, and I've never argued that they were &quot;integral&quot; to his thinking. In the end, you're right, they're there to provide a bit of variety.

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[Saulotus]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I ain't so sure about that dude.

Having no direct mention in the story, with later clarification is used many times by Tolkien.

Want a REALLY good example of what I'm talkin 'bout? Show me where the name Edhellond occurs ANYWHERE in LOTR.

I can use more examples if ya like. The Appendices were to illustrate points that may have been vague in the story, or lacking an explanation; would have slowed the story establishing one. Kinda like the War of the Dwarves and Orcs which is like way appendix material.

Far as I know dude, Olog-hai is original and not a revisional feature.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Considering your vast knowledge of all things Tolkien, you've probably already read Part Five of the HoME book Morgoth's Ring, &quot;Myths Transformed&quot;...<hr></blockquote>
More like vastly inadequate ... I've only ever read Hobbit, LotR, Silma., and a little bit of HoME, v. 1. The rest of HoME post-dates my Tolkien-reading days. I just muddle through on my vague memories of what I did read.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I was arguing more in a spirit of trying to make what's there &quot;work&quot;. If JRRT decided to invent the mention of the Olog-hai in Appendix F as a patch to upgrade trolls v1.0 to v1.1, then I'll download and install the patch in the spirit in which it's offered…<hr></blockquote>
Yeah, I tend to treat LotR more like &quot;just a book&quot; then a lot of other posters here do. And taking LotR as a story -- rather than as a descriptive treatise on an imaginary ecosphere -- I just can’t see that the whole Olog-hai conception was integral to the story. There it sits in the appendices, gently enriching, but not really integrated. I’m not trying to say that anybody who makes sense of this question differently than I am is wrong. Not at all. Mostly I was just realizing to myself, and subsequently remarking to everyone who followed this infernal thread, that this term just isn’t in the story. I was surprised. I keep expecting someone better acquainted with the text than I am to find it and post here. I kind of hope someone would. That’s all.

But I do totally disagree with this premise.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> The Appendices were to illustrate points that may have been vague in the story, or lacking an explanation; would have slowed the story establishing one.<hr></blockquote>
JRRT could so easily have changed the references somewhere in the text to read Olog-hai instead of stone-troll or hill-troll. One sentence in the story could have clarified the point. There were already a few references in the the story that he could have built upon. I really think that the term was extrinsic to the story. Someone find a citation and correct me. As I said, I'd kind of rather be mistaken. But I can't find the cite.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Correct me if I'm wrong, But do'nt we first hear the term Uruk-hai is from the Uruk-hai themselves. We don't ever get a chance to hear the Olog-hai talk about themselves like we do Ugluk and company. Might I ask what Marks I and II were?

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

&gt;&gt;JRRT could so easily have changed the references somewhere in the text to read Olog-hai instead of stone-troll or hill-troll.&lt;&lt;

Dude, the fact that he didn't seems to mean that they were different eh?

Would you call a Numenorean a Druedain?
They're all just men afterall ain't they?

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

You seem to have taken my statement that all trolls in the WotR were Olog-hai more literally than I meant it. That possibility was intended as a rhetorical foil to my premise that there really weren't any Olog-hai. That is the premise that I have meant to assert, at least to some degree all along.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not attempting to foreclose the question. I don't pretend to have exclusively the right answer. I'm thinking this out aloud among you. But the logic of your post supports something about my claim. You'd think that the Prof. would've called them Olog-hai if they were in fact Olog-hai. That he doesn't call them that doesn't preclude the possibility that any exist, but it seems odd that we don't see any.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

I made up Mk. III &amp; IV haphazardly. I have no idea what I &amp; II were. (Ent &amp; transitionally degraded ent? dunno). Good point about speakers.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 0</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Ya we do. Pippin kills one.

The battle of Pelennor adds new trolls to the mix. Mountain-trolls by name.

Want to know another term concernin trolls that doesn't appear until the Appendix?

Torog.

Since Tolkien didn't use Torog in the text, they must not exist.

Or how 'bout this one; Sindarin. The Sindar didn't speak Sindarin 'cause it ain't mentioned in the text. Only the Appendix, so we can say that they must have spoken Westron or sumpin cause if Tolkien really wanted us to know it was Sindarin they spoke, he woulda wrote Sindarin in the text.

Say g'night Gracie.

</p>

[galpsi]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Unquiet Dead
Posts: 1032</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

Saulotus:
Now this is just going in circles and I'm tempted to drop it. But for clarity's sake, I’ll try to tie down a few more ends. Pippin killed a &quot;hill-troll.&quot; We’ve already flogged this horse. Could've been an Olog-hai but the text doesn't say so. I'm asking if anybody knows of a place where the text uses the word. I thought that that request was straightforward.
I take your nominalist point about torog and Sindarin, but I don’t really think it clinches the point. If the word torog never appeared at all, it would not diminish the (mere) existence of trolls. Their collective existence is well established by the story. Torog, however, does not significantly adjust our understanding of trolls. It is just one of those details, like the analogous yrch, which lend complexity to the story and thereby lend it mimetic credibility. If you subtracted the back-story word, torog, from the story, troll would still carry the essential nominative load.
Sindarin is a little trickier. I’ll take your word that the designation doesn’t appear in the story. As I recall, it is just referred to as &quot;Elvish.&quot; In the following rhetorical flourish, however, I think that you overplay your case.
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Or how 'bout this one; Sindarin. The Sindar didn't speak Sindarin 'cause it ain't mentioned in the text. Only the Appendix, so we can say that they must have spoken Westron or sumpin cause if Tolkien really wanted us to know it was Sindarin they spoke, he woulda wrote Sindarin in the text.<hr></blockquote>
Sindarin is spoken in the story on many occasions: by elves, by hobbits, by men, etc. Concrete examples exist quite literally. So it can’t be Westron. Also the notion of the thing, Sindarin, is pretty clearly given us. But I would concur. The story is not hurt if, indeed, &quot;Elvish&quot; is the only designation given to Sindarin in the story. Sindarin takes on it’s much profounder significance in Silma., and other works where the sundering of the Elves is spelled out much more completely than in LotR.
In either case, torog or Sindarin, the role of the words is essentially nominative, not distinctive. (As JRRT stated in his essay on languages in the Appendices, Sindarin is the relevant spoken language in LotR, the other Elvish tongues – though extant – didn’t figure in this history.) This makes the cases of torog and Sindarin substantially different than the case of Olog-hai. The existence of trolls and of an Elvish language is firmly established. The fact that synonyms exist to describe them is merely a matter of texture. But any terminological variance doesn’t undercut the mere existence of the things. In the case of the Olog-hai, I would argue that uncertainty is more undermining. Their very existence -- as discrete things -- is never established with any of the same kind of concrete examples -- in the story -- which are given to prove the existence of spoken Elvish or of trolls.
That’s my whole point. In the story, itself, I can think of clear-cut examples of Elvish speech and I can think of clear-cut examples of trolls. I cannot, however, think of one clear-cut example of Olog-hai in the story. This is not to say they do not or cannot exist, only that their existence is not made concrete to the reader in the way that the identity of Uruk-hai is carefully distinguished from that of garden-variety orcs.
g.


</p>

[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 46</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

It seems that nothing short of an explicit, non-appendicitic (I made up that word! Get me, I'm a philologist!) textual reference will satisfy you galpsi. I am not the textual expert you seek, and perhaps this thread will finally have to be laid to rest until someone has a chance to do a read through now that the question has been raised.

At the risk of beating a dead horse into an unrecognizable bloody pulp, though, let me compile some of the points made so far into a case of seemingly overwhelming circumstantial evidence that the &quot;mountain-troll&quot; Pippin victimized was a fabled Olog-hai.

Burrahobbit’s observation re: the Uruk-hai is a keen one. A quick scan of “The Battle of Pelennor Fields” reveals no references made specifically to any Uruk-hai, only to orcs – but surely this formidable host was comprised mostly of Sauron’s toughest foot-soldiers? I wonder how often the Uruk-hai are referred to as such outside of conversations among themselves? Now that I think about it, JRR tended to confine utterances made in the Black Speech to the mouths of the bad guys – one notably shocking exception being Gandalf’s reading of the Ring’s inscription at the Council of Elrond, which caused some to stop their ears.

I happened across the “half-trolls” reference you cited earlier, g, and noticed that the quote says that the men of Far Harad were <u>like</u> half-trolls – more of a hyperbole on their extraordinary size (and ugliness?) than a racial denotation. This shows that JRR wasn’t quite as careless with his “race theory” as your evidence might have suggested.

IMHO, we can’t just dismiss the info in the appendices as mere crude editorial band-aids. They are a part of the book and are arguably more canonically valid than, say, the Silmarillion. For that matter, I’d argue that we can’t just disregard info in The Hobbit because it seems like an inconvenient and best forgotten dramaturgical conceit. The prof’s well-known perfectionism argues against the idea that he would make such a clumsy “fix” on trolls when he could have easily inserted an Olog-hai reference into the text if he thought one was motivated. I’d say that the same trait would likely have prevented him from simply ignoring his earlier troll rule. The HoME book I mentioned earlier shows that, even many years later, JRR still pondered (and felt obligated to abide by) this curious feature of troll nature.

So if we can conclude that Sauron did in fact breed superior Mark IV trolls, and that the Mark III’s remained susceptible to sunlight, it’s not an unreasonable deduction to presume that the trolls encountered before the Morannon, at least, are Olog-hai. Why come up with an unfounded optico-filtration theory when the prof has already offered a reasonable explanation? And if he bred them right there in Mordor and presumably had a stockpile on hand, why would he throw the older model into battle first in the critical conflict about to be joined on his very doorstep?

So my argument in a nutshell is that we do see Olog-hai, but that the prof never found a place that motivated a specific Black Speech reference to them <u>until</u> he got to the appendix. You’ve mentioned his love of nomenclature. Maybe he had this cool name for the suped-up troll-folk and didn’t want to waste it, and <u>that’s</u> why he put it in the appendix. That’s my best shot without a explicit textual reference on hand.

Look at that horse. What a mess.


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000005>Mister Underhill</A> Edited by: 9/13/00 1:05:47 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who knows their trolls?

&gt;&gt;I think that you overplay your case.
Quote:
Or how 'bout this one; Sindarin. The Sindar didn't speak Sindarin 'cause it ain't mentioned in the text. Only the Appendix, so we can say that they must have spoken Westron or sumpin cause if Tolkien really wanted us to know it was Sindarin they spoke, he woulda wrote Sindarin in the text.&lt;&lt;

Nope, ya just missed the point dude. Just showin the illogic of yer argument by givin an example that is patently false, yet usin yer logic would be true.


</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1271</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg" align=absmiddle> Olog-hai's and lows

Here is the draft version of the article I am writing about this subject.

Olog Hai’s and Lows

Appendix F. of The Lord of the Rings describes a new breed of troll, the Olog-hai, bred by Sauron in the late Third Age with the unusual ability (for trolls) to go about in the sunlight without petrification, a power which was available when the projected will of the Dark Lord was upon them. Sauron also heavily armed the Olog-hai and gave them a rudimentary education in the Black Speech These new trolls made their first appearances in Southern Mirkwood and the mountain borders of Mordor.

In the War of the Ring, Sauron used many trolls extensively in his forces as an equivalent to heavy cavalry and shock troops. Daytime trolls such as the Olog-hai would certainly have proved to be extremely beneficial to his forces and devastating to those of his enemies. But, since many of the battles fought in the war were fought in the hours of daylight, were all of the trolls in Sauron’s armies of the Olog-hai variety, or were other breeds of trolls also able to fight beyond the hours of darkness? We have to look at the history of trolls for possible answers.

Trolls have their beginning far back in the dawn of the First Age where, according to Treebeard, they were made by Morgoth in mockery of Ents. Originally they were all dull and lumpish in nature, very unintelligent and posessing no language. They were very strong, powerful and extremely large in size, sometimes nearly as big as Ents. But the early trolls had one great weakness, they could not endure the light of the Sun. When exposed to its rays they immediately and permanently turned to stone.

During the long years of the First Age trolls slowly evolved into at least two different varieties: those that turned to stone in sunlight and those that didn’t. The day-walking trolls were first witnessed in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad where they formed the guard of Gothmog. During that battle, Húrin was overcome after slaying seventy of the creatures, spewing their black blood with each hew of his axe. But he was eventually overcome as ‘ the sun went down beyond the sea’.

As time went on and the Ages passed, not much was seen of trolls until near the end of the Third Age. By then trolls had apparently divided into five distinct types, some achieving increased abilites and intelligence along the way.

According to the Red Book of Westmarch the Stone-trolls living in the western parts of Middle-Earth spoke a debased form of Common Speech. Because Tom, Bert, and William, the three trolls famous for their part in The Hobbit, spoke Westron of a sort, it was likely they were Stone-trolls. If so, Stone-trolls were a troll type unable to withstand the sun.

There were several trolls in Moria which Gandalf thought were cave-trolls. If the wizard was correct, Cave-trolls were very large, had green, scalish skin and toeless feet. Their hides were so tough that only Frodo’s blade Sting could pierce them. Like their original ancestors of the First Age, they bled black. Their reaction to exposure to the sun is uncertain, but being cave-trolls they were like as afraid of the sun as stone-trolls were.

Another type of troll was the Hill-troll. This breed of troll lived in and around Gorogoth. They were taller and broader than Men, wore huge round bucklers and wielded heavy hammers in battle. They had a terrible practice of biting the throats of creatures they felled in combat. They were hill-trolls that swarmed out of the Morannon against the armies of Gondor. Again, black blood is seen gushing at a wound caused by a blade of Westernesse, this time wielded by Pippin of the Shire.

Yet another breed of troll was employed by Sauron in the War. Mountain-trolls were present at the Siege of Gondor wielding the great battering ram Grond against the Gate of Minas Tirith.

From these descriptions it is plain the the Olog-hai, being only recently developed, were probably not the only day-trolls in Sauron’s arsenal. The ancient trolls of Gothmog’s train certainly predate them. The Hill-trolls worked quite well in the sunlight during the battle at the Black Gate, and the Mountain-trolls were able to travel all the way to Minas-Tirith to participate in the Siege of Gondor and the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. The Stone-trolls and Cave-troll were probably not present in Sauron’s traveling forces.

The Olog-hai variety of trolls is only referenced once in The Lord of the Rings. Otherwise trolls are identified simply as trolls or as the type of troll they are: hill-, cave-, mountain- or stone-trolls. Orcs on the other hand are identified as orcs or as Uruk-hai, the super-orc equivalent of the Olog-hai. Throughout the books it is plain when an orc is being identified as an Uruk-hai because the orcs themselves will usually say so. But when trolls are shown they are never labelled as Olog-hais.

If Gandalf had just once labelled any trolls as Olog-hai like he labelled orcs as Uruks in Moria, then the question might be answered. But, since there are obviously different types of trolls that can stand the sunlight and sun-proof trolls existed long before the Third Age, it would be impossible to assume that all trolls in Sauron’s service were Olog-hai and equally impossible to accurately label a troll as Olog-hai simply because he walked in the sun.


The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>