Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

04-07-2001, 08:37 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 4</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
I have Read in several books that frodo was based off of the Budda, or Jesus. They say that it is because he takes the ring in a self sacraficing way, know in that it will desrtoy him. I was just wondering what every one thought about that?

</p>

Aldaron · 04-07-2001, 08:46 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

Sounds like post-modern lit crit to me. I just read the stories for what they are and don't try to read something more into them. Otherwise, it will drive you nuts.

</p>

red · 04-07-2001, 10:10 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 237</TD><TD><img src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Science/Biology/DNA/DNA-02.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

No.

-réd

<blockquote><font size=2>

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p>

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p>

Orald · 04-07-2001, 10:31 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 756</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

Another allegory thread, Tolkien hated the idea of LotR being considered an allegory. It wasn't supposed to be, so I wonder why people still try to link it to something else.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

**lindil** · 04-08-2001, 05:04 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 586</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

"no, No, NO! " as Gandalf might say.

Tolkien was far more subtle than that.

Frodo did not know the ring would destroy him, indeed when he left Bag-End he was just trying to take it to Rivendell. At the Council he took the burden of the Ring , but there is never any speculation of it being purely suicidal/sacrificial, though clearly jimmy the greek would not have given them good odds.

As for the religious bit, no disrespect meant to Buddha, JRRT was most certainly not depicting him. As for Christ, there is no more attempt to cast Frodo in that mold than there was for Aragorn or Gandalf [ for whom the analogy fits far better] , Beren, Hurin, Finrod or any of a number heroes who made desperate or self-sacrificing gestures.

JRRT does point out by inference that self-sacrificing is necessary to reach any goal, and the larger the goal the larger the sacrifice required.
~Beren gave up a hand for Luthien [not a bad deal assuming she did not mind].
~Earendil gave up Middle-Earth and even normal life in the Undying Lands [although this is one facet of the Myth's Transformed business I would try and retain].
~Hurin gave up his life among the Eldar and Edain to curse Morgoth and according to one older legend, his son will be the one to give Morgoth his death blow at the end of Time.
~Gandalf sacrifices himself and indeed seeming hope of fuulfilling his mission to rid the world of the Balrog who otherwise [c/w]ould have made the next Dark Lord.
~aragorn reounced going straight to Minas tirith to follow merry and pippin.
~Frodo the shire and a normal retirement like Bilbo had.
~Finrod his kingdom etc...

the theme runs throughout Middle-Earth as does it's opposites, pride,greed &/or willfulness.
as seen in Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Turgon [not that he is to be seen in the same way as those prior], Turin.
Frodo [and Sam] by the way shows the virtue of obedience as far as his will allows, which is just close enough to allow smeagol [ he who was most tormented by the Ring] to save Middle-earth from Sauron's dominion.

Because Tolkien was attempting to depict truth he could not but draw on the Truth [JesusChrist] ,as the icon self-sacrificing love.This was however as he states in his letters and obliquely in OnFairy-Stories, not an attempt to imitate , but 'to tell a good yarn'. We can safely assume JRRT was using the many depths of the words ' good'. and as we all agree, he achieved exactly what he set out to do.

He was content to let the reader connect the dots from Middle-Earth to earth, from Valinor to the real Heavenly realm, from the foreshadowing of the Incarnation of God * to Christ. I am sure he hoped that the message for being more subtle would be no less powerful.

*mentioned plainly by Finrod in his dialouge w/ Andreth in Morgoth's Ring - the most theological story to survive fromMiddle-Earth, which was supposed to stand as an appendix to the Silmarillion.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/8/01 7:12:18 am

mwcfrodo · 04-08-2001, 07:35 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 44</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

A very similar discussion (and very interesting) is found at the thread "Trilogy and Bible?" which has now dropped down to about page 9 in the Forum.

Although I very much agree with most of what has been said, I do think Frodo had a pretty good idea he was going to end badly if he took the Ring. I realize he couldn't "know" but he was a very intuitive fellow. When he agreed to take the Ring from the Shire his comment to Gandalf was "But, this would mean exile, a flight from danger into danger, drawing it after me." Now, Pippin didn't have a clue...but that's another matter entirely.

</p>

Glorfindel · 04-08-2001, 08:45 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 57</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

Well said Lindil

</p>

***Gilthalion*** · 04-08-2001, 09:35 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 271</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

For once, I have nothing to add!

<center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgard...ilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p>

Samwise of the shire · 04-15-2001, 03:51 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 108</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:hmmmmm....

I wont say yes or no because no one could be sure,I seriously thing that Tolkien did'nt mean to show Frodo,Gandalf or Aragorn as a Christ figure,Tolkien was a Christian,and so I think that his Christian beliefs show up in his writings,and there are alot of LOTR charecters that give of themselves or have christian charecteristics-that is such a stinking long word-so my answer would be NO and maybe.
Samwise Gamgee

</p>

Grey Fool · 04-15-2001, 05:20 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Christianity

Dinnae be daft.

Read the introduction to the Alan Lee illustrated LotR
(1991) which includes a religious disclaimer by the man himself.

</p>

Samwise of the shire · 04-23-2001, 12:48 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 120</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:What do you mean disclaimer GF?

Are you talking about Tolkien or Alan Lee?Huh, I for one can see many different things in LOTR that reflect Christianity, so please tell me where to find the book and I'll look for it.
Samwise of the shire

</p>

burrahobbit · 04-23-2001, 01:16 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit
Posts: 759</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re:What do you mean disclaimer GF?

The "disclaimer" is written by Tolkien. It's in most of them.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

04-07-2001, 08:37 PM	#1
RingFinder Guest Posts: n/a	Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 4</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> I have Read in several books that frodo was based off of the Budda, or Jesus. They say that it is because he takes the ring in a self sacraficing way, know in that it will desrtoy him. I was just wondering what every one thought about that? </p>

04-07-2001, 10:10 PM	#3
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 366	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 237</TD><TD><img src=http://www.bestanimations.com/Science/Biology/DNA/DNA-02.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? No. -réd <blockquote><font size=2> "He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."</p> -A Short Rest, The Hobbit</p></blockquote></p> __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

04-08-2001, 05:04 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 586</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? "no, No, NO! " as Gandalf might say. Tolkien was far more subtle than that. Frodo did not know the ring would destroy him, indeed when he left Bag-End he was just trying to take it to Rivendell. At the Council he took the burden of the Ring , but there is never any speculation of it being purely suicidal/sacrificial, though clearly jimmy the greek would not have given them good odds. As for the religious bit, no disrespect meant to Buddha, JRRT was most certainly not depicting him. As for Christ, there is no more attempt to cast Frodo in that mold than there was for Aragorn or Gandalf [ for whom the analogy fits far better] , Beren, Hurin, Finrod or any of a number heroes who made desperate or self-sacrificing gestures. JRRT does point out by inference that self-sacrificing is necessary to reach any goal, and the larger the goal the larger the sacrifice required. ~Beren gave up a hand for Luthien [not a bad deal assuming she did not mind]. ~Earendil gave up Middle-Earth and even normal life in the Undying Lands [although this is one facet of the Myth's Transformed business I would try and retain]. ~Hurin gave up his life among the Eldar and Edain to curse Morgoth and according to one older legend, his son will be the one to give Morgoth his death blow at the end of Time. ~Gandalf sacrifices himself and indeed seeming hope of fuulfilling his mission to rid the world of the Balrog who otherwise [c/w]ould have made the next Dark Lord. ~aragorn reounced going straight to Minas tirith to follow merry and pippin. ~Frodo the shire and a normal retirement like Bilbo had. ~Finrod his kingdom etc... the theme runs throughout Middle-Earth as does it's opposites, pride,greed &/or willfulness. as seen in Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Turgon [not that he is to be seen in the same way as those prior], Turin. Frodo [and Sam] by the way shows the virtue of obedience as far as his will allows, which is just close enough to allow smeagol [ he who was most tormented by the Ring] to save Middle-earth from Sauron's dominion. Because Tolkien was attempting to depict truth he could not but draw on the Truth [JesusChrist] ,as the icon self-sacrificing love.This was however as he states in his letters and obliquely in OnFairy-Stories, not an attempt to imitate , but 'to tell a good yarn'. We can safely assume JRRT was using the many depths of the words ' good'. and as we all agree, he achieved exactly what he set out to do. He was content to let the reader connect the dots from Middle-Earth to earth, from Valinor to the real Heavenly realm, from the foreshadowing of the Incarnation of God * to Christ. I am sure he hoped that the message for being more subtle would be no less powerful. mentioned plainly by Finrod in his dialouge w/ Andreth in Morgoth's Ring - the most theological story to survive fromMiddle-Earth, which was supposed to stand as an appendix to the Silmarillion. Lindil* is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/8/01 7:12:18 am __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

04-08-2001, 09:35 AM	#8
*Gilthalion* Hobbitus Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: South Farthing Posts: 635	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm Posts: 271</TD><TD><img src=http://home.att.net/~robertwgardner/lotrmap.gif WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? For once, I have nothing to add! <center><font face=verdana size=1> http://www.barrowdowns.comBarrow-Downs</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000Bare Bones</a>~http://pub41.ezboard.com/btarostineruhirTar Ost-in-Eruhir</a>~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgard...ilthalion.htmlGrand Adventures</a>~http://www.barrowdowns.com/fanfichobbits.aspThe Hobbits</a>~http://www.tolkientrail.comTolkien Trail</a> </center></p> __________________ Please read my fan fiction novel THE HOBBITS. Wanna hear me read Tolkien? Gilthalion's Grand Adventures!

04-23-2001, 01:16 PM	#12
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hidden Spirit Posts: 759</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Re:What do you mean disclaimer GF? The "disclaimer" is written by Tolkien. It's in most of them. What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p> __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

04-07-2001, 08:46 PM	#2
Aldaron Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 86	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 68</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? Sounds like post-modern lit crit to me. I just read the stories for what they are and don't try to read something more into them. Otherwise, it will drive you nuts. </p>

04-07-2001, 10:31 PM	#4
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 756</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? Another allegory thread, Tolkien hated the idea of LotR being considered an allegory. It wasn't supposed to be, so I wonder why people still try to link it to something else. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

04-08-2001, 07:35 AM	#6
mwcfrodo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 41	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 44</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? A very similar discussion (and very interesting) is found at the thread "Trilogy and Bible?" which has now dropped down to about page 9 in the Forum. Although I very much agree with most of what has been said, I do think Frodo had a pretty good idea he was going to end badly if he took the Ring. I realize he couldn't "know" but he was a very intuitive fellow. When he agreed to take the Ring from the Shire his comment to Gandalf was "But, this would mean exile, a flight from danger into danger, drawing it after me." Now, Pippin didn't have a clue...but that's another matter entirely. </p>

04-08-2001, 08:45 AM	#7
Glorfindel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 42	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 57</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? Well said Lindil </p>

04-15-2001, 03:51 PM	#9
Samwise of the shire Wight Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 152	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 108</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:hmmmmm.... I wont say yes or no because no one could be sure,I seriously thing that Tolkien did'nt mean to show Frodo,Gandalf or Aragorn as a Christ figure,Tolkien was a Christian,and so I think that his Christian beliefs show up in his writings,and there are alot of LOTR charecters that give of themselves or have christian charecteristics-that is such a stinking long word-so my answer would be NO and maybe. Samwise Gamgee </p>

04-15-2001, 05:20 PM	#10
Grey Fool Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2000 Posts: 31	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Christianity Dinnae be daft. Read the introduction to the Alan Lee illustrated LotR (1991) which includes a religious disclaimer by the man himself. </p>

04-23-2001, 12:48 PM	#11
Samwise of the shire Wight Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 152	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight Posts: 120</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re:What do you mean disclaimer GF? Are you talking about Tolkien or Alan Lee?Huh, I for one can see many different things in LOTR that reflect Christianity, so please tell me where to find the book and I'll look for it. Samwise of the shire </p>