Uruk-hai - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maeglanthirion · 08-02-2003, 03:05 PM

I seem to remember somewhere in the books that Uruk-hai were created by mixing orcs and Gondor men. In the movie Gandalf said Uruk-hai were created mixing orcs and goblin men. The latter sounds rather funny and I'm partial to believe the former. Which one is true. Is this an error in the movie, or am I wrong. I know he says "goblin men" because i turned the subtitles on. Help!

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 08-03-2003, 03:12 AM

I have never heard about Uruk-hai being created mixing orcs and Gondor men...what a nasty idea *shudders*
I always thought that Saruman had mixed orcs and some evil 'wild men' or goblins...I'm sure that it founds from the book.

Diamond Green · 08-03-2003, 03:42 AM

Uruk-hai are simply created out of orcs. Men really have nothing to do with them!!
The way orcs were first created, so were also the Uruk-hai made by the dark forces, stronger, bigger and resistant to sunlight.

Lord of Angmar · 08-03-2003, 08:51 AM

Are you sure about that Diamond Green? I seem to remember the Uruk-hai as being at least partially Mannish, mixed with Wild Men or some such thing. I shall do a search on the site and see if I cannot come up with a definitive answer.

[Edit: You were right, Diamond Green, there is never any mention of the Uruk-hai as being half or partially Mannish. I must have seen the movie a few too many times [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]]

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

Maeglanthirion · 08-03-2003, 12:54 PM

okay. I didn't really think mixing goblins and orcs would really create something like an Uruk-hai. Also, i always thought goblins were sort of a breed of orc, not really a species on it's own.

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 01:19 PM

Alright...I'm pretty sure that the Uruk-hai were a blend of the wild men from the hills/men of Dunland, but I can't find the quote right now...and I'm almost absolutely sure that golbins and orcs were the same, just two different names for the same creature (one point is that in the Hobbit, Bilbo calls his captors goblins, but in LOTR, they were called orcs)

Quote:

"Wouldn't an orc have suited it better?"

...so I really have no idea where "orcs and goblin-men" came from...

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

Mariska Greenleaf · 08-05-2003, 08:39 AM

So, there are two different topics discussed here:
whether or not Goblins and orcs are the same
and if Uruk-hai were partly created out of men.

first of all, concerning orcs-goblins:
There is a difference. Orcs is the general name of the creatures that were corrupted by the dark lord, Goblins is a name for orcs, and especially the smaller kinds that infested the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains in the later third age. Their capital was at Mount Gundabad.
But in fact Tolkien himself wasn't very clear about this, he just referred to the orcs who lived in the Misty and Grey Mountains by Goblins, and the word "goblin" was never used in the Sil.

About the Uruk-hai: they were a kind of orcs, but larger and stronger, and they appeared in the third age.
As far as I can tell the Uruk-hai were created by Sauron through a process of dark sorcery and no hybridization with other races was involved in their creation.
So, men were certainly not involved, but,
maybe some people are confusing the Uruk-hai with half-orcs.
These were creatures made by Saruman, therefor he crossed orcs and men, and the half-orcs were also able to withstand sunlight.
So, maybe because in the movies it is Saruman who creates the Uruk-hai (while in fact it was Sauron who created them) there is some confusion...

Novberaid · 08-06-2003, 05:58 PM

As near as my research has been able to come
up with, I am in agreement with Mariska
Greenleaf. Everything I have been able to
come up with and able to remember states that
Uruk-hai were a combination of men and orcs,
for the purpose of being able to travel in
sunlight.

Marroc Underhill · 08-06-2003, 06:31 PM

I was under the impresion that Saruman
breeded Goblin's with Men, they had
children, then he mated these "Goblin-Men"
with orcs, and out came an Uruk-Hai,
which means: Uruk- One of the larger breedes of Orcs. Hai- People. Uruk-Hai: Large Orc
People.

Noxomanus · 08-07-2003, 03:59 AM

That is the movie version I'm afraid.And the movies are no accurate source for the more detailed aspects of Tolkiens world.

Mariska Greenleaf · 08-07-2003, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Uruk-Hai: Large Orc
People.

That's true, but "people" has nothing to do with men in this context. You can aswell say dwarfpeople or hobbitpeople for instance, but this doesn't make them half men.
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Marroc Underhill · 08-07-2003, 06:07 AM

"People" as in an inteligent, large and
numbered species.

Mariska Greenleaf · 08-08-2003, 05:54 AM

Well ok, but I believe that the impression you have is not correct.
First of all because it wasn't Saruman who created the Urukhai ( I assume that we take the books as a reference), and second, I've never found any information about the fact that the Uruk-hai were partly made out of men.

I'll do some more research, 'cause it's an interesting topic.

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 08-08-2003, 06:47 AM

Darn, PJ, You have misguided us [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]
I'm browsing through my books but I don't find anything...

Marroc Underhill · 08-08-2003, 07:54 PM

I got my info from this letter I
recall seeing that was from JrrT.
It was about the Uruk-Hai, but I
guess he could not come to a decision.(?)

Novberaid · 08-09-2003, 11:17 AM

I have come across some info saying " By what method Sauron bred these beings is not known,..." I have to wonder why these beings were so prominent in JRRT's books when Tolkien also had Sauron breeding the Olog-hai around the same time. They were stronger, bigger, fiercer, and formidable.
Any thoughts?

Marroc Underhill · 08-10-2003, 01:17 AM

Sauron probably wanted to breed as many fierce and vile creatures into "His" world as he could. Plus, the more creatures he had in his service, the better I suppose.

Eol Telemnar · 12-12-2003, 07:59 PM

(Going to the original question)

Uruk-hai are a mixture of Orcs and Goblin-men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-12-2003, 09:42 PM

Stop resurrecting old topics, which are all on the same subject- get one, and post in it, please
and, again, i want to see your quote! If you had read the thread, they think that was from the movie, so you have to give the quote, so they have proof.

08-02-2003, 03:05 PM	#1
Maeglanthirion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 47	Uruk-hai I seem to remember somewhere in the books that Uruk-hai were created by mixing orcs and Gondor men. In the movie Gandalf said Uruk-hai were created mixing orcs and goblin men. The latter sounds rather funny and I'm partial to believe the former. Which one is true. Is this an error in the movie, or am I wrong. I know he says "goblin men" because i turned the subtitles on. Help! __________________ "I see in your eyes, the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come, when the courage of men fails, and we break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. This day, we fight!..."

08-03-2003, 03:12 AM	#2
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	I have never heard about Uruk-hai being created mixing orcs and Gondor men...what a nasty idea shudders I always thought that Saruman had mixed orcs and some evil 'wild men' or goblins...I'm sure that it founds from the book. __________________ Fenris Wolf

08-03-2003, 03:42 AM	#3
Diamond Green Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: between the mountains and the sea Posts: 17	Uruk-hai are simply created out of orcs. Men really have nothing to do with them!! The way orcs were first created, so were also the Uruk-hai made by the dark forces, stronger, bigger and resistant to sunlight. __________________ If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.

08-03-2003, 08:51 AM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Are you sure about that Diamond Green? I seem to remember the Uruk-hai as being at least partially Mannish, mixed with Wild Men or some such thing. I shall do a search on the site and see if I cannot come up with a definitive answer. [Edit: You were right, Diamond Green, there is never any mention of the Uruk-hai as being half or partially Mannish. I must have seen the movie a few too many times [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]] [ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-03-2003, 12:54 PM	#5
Maeglanthirion Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 47	okay. I didn't really think mixing goblins and orcs would really create something like an Uruk-hai. Also, i always thought goblins were sort of a breed of orc, not really a species on it's own. __________________ "I see in your eyes, the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come, when the courage of men fails, and we break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. This day, we fight!..."

08-05-2003, 08:39 AM	#7
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	So, there are two different topics discussed here: whether or not Goblins and orcs are the same and if Uruk-hai were partly created out of men. first of all, concerning orcs-goblins: There is a difference. Orcs is the general name of the creatures that were corrupted by the dark lord, Goblins is a name for orcs, and especially the smaller kinds that infested the Misty Mountains and the Grey Mountains in the later third age. Their capital was at Mount Gundabad. But in fact Tolkien himself wasn't very clear about this, he just referred to the orcs who lived in the Misty and Grey Mountains by Goblins, and the word "goblin" was never used in the Sil. About the Uruk-hai: they were a kind of orcs, but larger and stronger, and they appeared in the third age. As far as I can tell the Uruk-hai were created by Sauron through a process of dark sorcery and no hybridization with other races was involved in their creation. So, men were certainly not involved, but, maybe some people are confusing the Uruk-hai with half-orcs. These were creatures made by Saruman, therefor he crossed orcs and men, and the half-orcs were also able to withstand sunlight. So, maybe because in the movies it is Saruman who creates the Uruk-hai (while in fact it was Sauron who created them) there is some confusion... __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

08-06-2003, 05:58 PM	#8
Novberaid Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mirkwood Forest Posts: 45	As near as my research has been able to come up with, I am in agreement with Mariska Greenleaf. Everything I have been able to come up with and able to remember states that Uruk-hai were a combination of men and orcs, for the purpose of being able to travel in sunlight. __________________ By the starlit mere of Cuivienen, they rose from the sleep of Iluvatar

08-06-2003, 06:31 PM	#9
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	I was under the impresion that Saruman breeded Goblin's with Men, they had children, then he mated these "Goblin-Men" with orcs, and out came an Uruk-Hai, which means: Uruk- One of the larger breedes of Orcs. Hai- People. Uruk-Hai: Large Orc People. __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

08-07-2003, 03:59 AM	#10
Noxomanus Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 233	That is the movie version I'm afraid.And the movies are no accurate source for the more detailed aspects of Tolkiens world. __________________ Nothing is evil in the beginning,even Sauron wasn't

08-07-2003, 06:07 AM	#12
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	"People" as in an inteligent, large and numbered species. __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

08-08-2003, 05:54 AM	#13
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Well ok, but I believe that the impression you have is not correct. First of all because it wasn't Saruman who created the Urukhai ( I assume that we take the books as a reference), and second, I've never found any information about the fact that the Uruk-hai were partly made out of men. I'll do some more research, 'cause it's an interesting topic. __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

08-08-2003, 06:47 AM	#14
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	Darn, PJ, You have misguided us [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I'm browsing through my books but I don't find anything... __________________ Fenris Wolf

08-08-2003, 07:54 PM	#15
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	I got my info from this letter I recall seeing that was from JrrT. It was about the Uruk-Hai, but I guess he could not come to a decision.(?) __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

08-09-2003, 11:17 AM	#16
Novberaid Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mirkwood Forest Posts: 45	I have come across some info saying " By what method Sauron bred these beings is not known,..." I have to wonder why these beings were so prominent in JRRT's books when Tolkien also had Sauron breeding the Olog-hai around the same time. They were stronger, bigger, fiercer, and formidable. Any thoughts? __________________ By the starlit mere of Cuivienen, they rose from the sleep of Iluvatar

08-10-2003, 01:17 AM	#17
Marroc Underhill Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In The Deep Places Of The World Posts: 61	Sauron probably wanted to breed as many fierce and vile creatures into "His" world as he could. Plus, the more creatures he had in his service, the better I suppose. __________________ Hail to the Lords of Angmar, for we are the true power!

12-12-2003, 07:59 PM	#18
Eol Telemnar Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: At my house, on my computer (where else would I be? Posts: 89	(Going to the original question) Uruk-hai are a mixture of Orcs and Goblin-men [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ Eol Telemnar, The Dark Elf , Has Spoken, Heed My words well. Peace go with you.

12-12-2003, 09:42 PM	#19
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	Stop resurrecting old topics, which are all on the same subject- get one, and post in it, please and, again, i want to see your quote! If you had read the thread, they think that was from the movie, so you have to give the quote, so they have proof. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!