Unworthy - Page 3 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lathriel · 03-15-2003, 12:26 AM

My brother who is reading LOTR for the first time thiks its more like historical fiction because of Tolkein writing its whole history. I never thought of that but its kinda neat.
note-Ursula le Guin's Earthsea trilogy was interesting

aragornreborn · 03-15-2003, 12:12 PM

It's not actual history, though. So, it can not be classified as historical fiction.

Iarwain · 03-15-2003, 02:31 PM

A Brief Comment:

Why should Tolkien be present in all Fantasy? Are Tolkien's thoughts and methods present in all author's minds? Need everyone use elves, dwarves and dragons in their dreams of other worlds? If you can fantasize about somewhere else, why does that somewhere have to contain the "unavoidable" elements of Tolkien's works? Any tale is possible to be told, you just have to work hard to find one that is original. If no one puts any effort into originality, then we end up with an entire genre chock full of lazy imitations and poor recreations of the founder.

Iarwain

Olorin_TLA · 03-15-2003, 05:20 PM

Well, by "fantasy" I meant the elves, dwarves etc. branch of it. Of course if you didn't use thos,e you'd have no problme. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Eressië Ailin · 03-15-2003, 05:30 PM

Iarwain~ Of course, Tolkien didn't create Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, or Goblins. They all were written about in myths and legends before Tolkien. So, you cannot rightly say that other writers are copying Tolkien by using those species. However, if they were to use Orcs, Hobbits, Ents, or Balrogs, then, yes, they would be copying Tolkien.

aragornreborn · 03-15-2003, 07:12 PM

Tolkien doesn't have to be present in all fantasy. But, the best fantasy unites both the familiar and the unfamiliar. Tolkien took many common mythological creatures for his mythological/fantasy work. So, if one were to try to write another mythological fantasy of the history of the world, it would be hard because Tolkien used up many of the mythological creatures that people could identify with. Everyone knew a little about elves, dwarves, and dragons. Tolkien used those creatures and gave them a history. Of course, you can make up your own creatures, but creatures that already exist yet are mysterious are the most effective. Fantasy itself does not have to resemble Tolkien or Middle Earth at all. But any attempt at a mythological fantasy of the world would be difficult because many of the common mythical creatures have been taken. It would not be impossible by any means, but would take a bit of work.

**The Saucepan Man** · 03-15-2003, 08:17 PM

I think that we might be getting a little precious in describing JRRT as the creator of the fantasy genre. The Hobbit was first published in 1936. At the same time, Robert E Howard was publishing his first Conan stories, and had published a few stories in similar vein earlier. Fritz Lieber's Nehwon books were first published (I think) in the 1940s. And I'm sure that there were fantasy novels published earlier than all these.

Indeed, fairy-tales, involving Elves, Dwarves and Goblins, have been around for centuries, and the Brothers Grimm first started collecting and publishing such tales in the early 19th century.

Of course, in our opinion, JRRT is the best fantasy author. But that does not mean to say that he was the first.

Iarwain · 03-16-2003, 04:00 PM

Glad you posted, Saucepan! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Now I have no further reason to post in this thread. Good-bye Everyone!

Iarwain

Meoshi · 03-16-2003, 04:22 PM

Perhaps it is better to say that Tolkien started the current boom of fantasy writings.

[ March 16, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

InklingElf · 03-17-2003, 09:37 AM

I quite agree with you Meoshi

03-15-2003, 12:26 AM	#81
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	My brother who is reading LOTR for the first time thiks its more like historical fiction because of Tolkein writing its whole history. I never thought of that but its kinda neat. note-Ursula le Guin's Earthsea trilogy was interesting __________________ Back again

03-15-2003, 12:12 PM	#82
aragornreborn Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 182	It's not actual history, though. So, it can not be classified as historical fiction. __________________ At the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. - Phil. 2:10-11

03-15-2003, 02:31 PM	#83
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	A Brief Comment: Why should Tolkien be present in all Fantasy? Are Tolkien's thoughts and methods present in all author's minds? Need everyone use elves, dwarves and dragons in their dreams of other worlds? If you can fantasize about somewhere else, why does that somewhere have to contain the "unavoidable" elements of Tolkien's works? Any tale is possible to be told, you just have to work hard to find one that is original. If no one puts any effort into originality, then we end up with an entire genre chock full of lazy imitations and poor recreations of the founder. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-15-2003, 05:20 PM	#84
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Well, by "fantasy" I meant the elves, dwarves etc. branch of it. Of course if you didn't use thos,e you'd have no problme. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

03-15-2003, 05:30 PM	#85
Eressië Ailin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Past the Point of No Return... Posts: 502	Iarwain~ Of course, Tolkien didn't create Elves, Dwarves, Dragons, or Goblins. They all were written about in myths and legends before Tolkien. So, you cannot rightly say that other writers are copying Tolkien by using those species. However, if they were to use Orcs, Hobbits, Ents, or Balrogs, then, yes, they would be copying Tolkien. __________________ Holy angel, in Heaven blessed... My spirit longs with thee to rest! ~Faust Never judge a book by its movie. ~J. W. Eagan By the big slippers of big slipperdom! ~M. Gillenormand, Les Misérables My blog!

03-15-2003, 07:12 PM	#86
aragornreborn Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 182	Tolkien doesn't have to be present in all fantasy. But, the best fantasy unites both the familiar and the unfamiliar. Tolkien took many common mythological creatures for his mythological/fantasy work. So, if one were to try to write another mythological fantasy of the history of the world, it would be hard because Tolkien used up many of the mythological creatures that people could identify with. Everyone knew a little about elves, dwarves, and dragons. Tolkien used those creatures and gave them a history. Of course, you can make up your own creatures, but creatures that already exist yet are mysterious are the most effective. Fantasy itself does not have to resemble Tolkien or Middle Earth at all. But any attempt at a mythological fantasy of the world would be difficult because many of the common mythical creatures have been taken. It would not be impossible by any means, but would take a bit of work. __________________ At the name of Jesus every knee should bow and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. - Phil. 2:10-11

03-15-2003, 08:17 PM	#87
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I think that we might be getting a little precious in describing JRRT as the creator of the fantasy genre. The Hobbit was first published in 1936. At the same time, Robert E Howard was publishing his first Conan stories, and had published a few stories in similar vein earlier. Fritz Lieber's Nehwon books were first published (I think) in the 1940s. And I'm sure that there were fantasy novels published earlier than all these. Indeed, fairy-tales, involving Elves, Dwarves and Goblins, have been around for centuries, and the Brothers Grimm first started collecting and publishing such tales in the early 19th century. Of course, in our opinion, JRRT is the best fantasy author. But that does not mean to say that he was the first. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

03-16-2003, 04:00 PM	#88
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Glad you posted, Saucepan! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Now I have no further reason to post in this thread. Good-bye Everyone! Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

03-16-2003, 04:22 PM	#89
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Perhaps it is better to say that Tolkien started the current boom of fantasy writings. [ March 16, 2003: Message edited by: Meoshi ]

03-17-2003, 09:37 AM	#90
InklingElf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 402	I quite agree with you Meoshi