Galadriel aided by Nenya... as powerful as Melian?

[Iarhen]

I have a theory.

Lothlorien was protected by a girdle, similar to the one Melian raised around Doriath to protect the place.

Again, Melian was personally more powerful than Galadriel. But Galadriel had a power boost with the aid of Nenya, Ring of Adamant.

So, do you think that the girdle that Galadriel raised around Lothlorien was as powerful as the one Melian built around Doriath? Remember the power of Nenya before answering...

[lathspell]

I think they were in a way the same, both protecting a Forest-realm with a 'girdle'. But I don't think that Galadriel, even with Nenya, could rival the powers of Melian. Melian is after all the most powerful Maia according to the Silmarillion.

greetings,
lathspell

[Tar-Palantir]

The Girdle of Melian I would safely assume to be more powerful, although they are altogether different in design and purpose. Doriath was to be kept as a place secreted from the enemy and friend alike, whereas Lothlórien and it's location was known to all.

Melian did not direct the growth of the foliage around her, nor did she need to protect her home against the ravages of time, her girdle was one of confusion and bewilderment. Galadriel used her powers to preserve her land against decay and to promote growth. Any warding off of enemies came from the hallowed nature of the soil, the nearby rivers and the bows of the Galadhrim.

I would also suspect that her mirror was as beneficial in protecting the woods from intrusion as was Nenya. Even Galadriel + Nenya + Mirror + Celeborn (hehe) was not as formidable as Melian.

[lindil]

Tar-Palantir has nailed it methinks.

Galadriel's enchantment in Lorien and the Girdle were different.

Galadriel's shows no sign's of having any 'foe repellent ' properties [and I do not think coupled with what else she seemed to be continually doing <see below> doubt if she would try a Melian style Girdle even if she had the strength].

Granted she may have and I bet did, use something of the lore she learned from Melian to weave the power of the ring throughout the land of Lothlorien for many miles whereas the effects of healind in Rivendell were only mentioned to be quite localized.

The mirror probably helped, but in no lore that we have of Galadriel is her power shown as much as in the statement, [quote]'...even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'[quote]

This to me shows incontrovertibly that not only was she more powerful than Elrond [to whom 'all under the shadow was dark'] but she at the very least had some unknown [by me at least] advantage of Osanwe over Sauron himself. Perhaps because Sauron was always casting his will out into other creatures to control them, the strands of his intention were thus 'read' by her. If so a real weakness, and one he may not even know he had.

I must read Osanwe-Kenta again to see if it sheds any light on this.

But she was a master of this as is shown in the FotR [and actually somewhat well in the movie, I think someone who had read the O-K clued jackson in to exactly what was going on there] and I magine that the mirror was in some resects partially an extension of this power, they certainly worked together, for she could at the same time, be aware of the world around her 'do not touch the water', know what Frodo was seeing, and perceive the Dark Lord's mind.

So when people ask what Elves do all day, I would say some must practice serious splitting of the attention of their paerceptive and psychic faculties.

What Galadriel stats and implies shows incredible control that would make Yoda want to ask a few questions!

In terms of Melian's power, she at every turn in the events of the Silm, could intuitively sense the future therein contained. Look at her every dialogue in the Silm and the Narn in UT, and you will see her perceiving the likely effects of current or possible actions. No other being in M-E to my mind has so many instances where this occurs, though all of the 'good guys' have this forknowledge to some degree:
Finrod, Halbarad, Aragorn, Elrond all immediately come to mind, but for Melian along with the Girdle it seems to be her chief higher mental skill.

[ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Ruler of the Frogs]

Melian was a Maia, Galadriel was an Elf. There has to be some power difference there, I would guess.

[Tar-Palantir]

Thanks for the analysis lindil, it skipped my mind that Galadriel had spent quite a bit of time in Melian's presence in Doriath. A talent for the forseeing of events and dooms to come can indeed come in handy when preparing for enemies seen and unseen.

Your comment of Galadriel possibly learning something of Melian's girdle and then weaving what she could of her own talents through the woods of Lórien probably holds water given what we hear from other travelers in the books. That being the fearful commentary provided when confronted with simply the name of the Lady or Lórien. I won't dig them out, but you know that to which I refer -i.e. those who go in don't come, or they come out 'different'.

Remember Boromir never felt comfortable there, even after he'd seen the beauty, grace and strength. Why? Besides his upbringing to fear and distrust the place, it was because the seed of evil was already planted in his heart. It can't be forgotten that Gimli, who had the largest distrust and reservations of entering the woods, grew to love them and the Lady. Perhaps this was part of the nature of the Lórien 'girdle', those of unsound heart are repelled to a greater degree than the simple [mostly rumor inspired] dissuasion of the goodly foreigners.

I think I need to write a second draft - but the point is made. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 17, 2003: Message edited by: Tar-Palantir ]

[Voralphion]

No. Galadriel,even aided by Nenya was nowhere near as powerful as Melian. There was no 'Girdle of Galadriel' whereby no-one she didn't want in couldn't enter, if this was the case there would be no need for elven archers to protect the borders, or to blindfold the fellowship because anyone not wanted wouldn't be able to come in, let alone find their way to the centre of the realm (sorry I forgot the name, Caras something?).
The power of the ring was to halt the decay of living things by altering the passing of time and to hallow the soil so that living things grew. The hallowing of the soil helped to protect the land from evil things as they did not like to go on ground hallowed by elves, but it could not stop them, as was seen by the orcs (and Gollum) that followed the fellowship. For this reason they had border guards such as Haldir so that no evil things would not leave if they did indeed enter. Lothlorien was protected not by a protective girdle but by millitary force.
The mirror helped in the protection of Lothlorien because it allowed Galadriel to see what is going on around her realm, this I think is one of the powers of the ring because it involves water so it helps her there, but Melian had many powers of foresight and could tell what was going on around Doriath as well and her powers would've been more powerful than the mirror so Melian is more powerful in that respect as well.
Galadriel's power to shadow her mind and Lothlorien from the mind of Sauron is impressive but also weak when compared with Melian's ability to do this to Morgoth at his height of power.
The power of Galadriel in Lothlorien was in some ways similar to Melian, except in the girdle thing, but Melian was much more powerful than Galadriel with the ring and probabally would've been more powerful even if Galadriel had the ruling ring.

[Iarhen]

I recognise the fact that Melian was a powerful Maia (I dont think, though, that she was the "most powerful" one, because Sauron is held to be the most powerful one) and just because of it, she has an advantage in terms of ratial powers.

But remember that it is also told that some of the Eldar that lived in Valinor, at least the greatest among the Eldar (Galadriel included) grew to be as powerful as a maia. Maybe not as powerful as Melian, but close.

So, with the aid of Nenya, and the teachings in Valinor, and summing up the training of Galadriel by Melian, maybe the power of Galadriel was close to Melian's.

But about the important thing. I know Nenya was not designed as a Ring for battle. But its powers was to protect a land from all kind of decay. If the ring was able to stop the effects of time, I presume that it gave Galadriel the power to affect the enemies that would try to enter and attack Lorien.

In what way? Even though some orcs and Gollum were able to enter the Golden Wood, the main force that kept Sauron, Barad Dur and Dol Guldur out of Lorien was Galadriel. Remember that when the 3 assaults occurred against Laurelindorenan, the main power that kept the Evil Forces out of Lorien was Galadriel. Tolkien even states that only Sauron, physically present in the borders of the Wood with the power of his Ruling Ring, would be able to enter and break the defenses of the Wood. Meaning that not from a distance, and certainly not without his ring, Sauron could not enter Lorien. Much less conquer it.

So, even Sauron, the most powerful maia, would have a terrible time dealing with Galadriel. My guess is that, even though Melian was more powerful than Galadriel (but not that much), Galadriel's defenses kept Lorien a safe place. And that was when Sauron was at the height of his power (not only personal, but in terms of armies, allies, advantages, etc.).

P.S. But then, maybe Nenya was not the main reason that Lorien was a safe place. Then, it was Galadriel. Don`t you think?

[Voralphion]

I thought it says in the Silmarillion that Osse is the most powerful maia not Sauron.

[lindil]

"Tolkien even states that only Sauron, physically present in the borders of the Wood with the power of his Ruling Ring, would be able to enter and break the defenses of the Wood. Meaning that not from a distance, and certainly not without his ring, Sauron could not enter Lorien. Much less conquer it."

I do not recall any such quote Iarhen, where does it come from?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

But remember that it is also told that some of the Eldar that lived in Valinor, at least the greatest among the Eldar (Galadriel included) grew to be as powerful as a maia.

I think that that Finrod, wasn't as powerful as even the weakest of the Maia. It's a quote in one of the at three HoME's I think. Finrod is one of the most powerful of all the Eldar.

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the Elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had came there himself.

LoTR Appendix; Tale of years

I think maybe Iarhen misunderstood the quote.

[lindil]

Thanks, yes I can not imagine even all of the Nine together wanting to tangle with galadriel and her senior Noldor and Sindar.

The very light would hurt if not blind their 'eyes'.

[Iarhen]

Im sorry, but I cant see where the misunderstanding is.

And, why are you speaking of the Nazgul, Iindil? I know that they would not dare to face Galadriel. Just the fact that she has a more powerful ring gives you the idea that the ringwraiths couldnt stand a chance.

But again... I cant see the misunderstanding. Im sorry...

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Im sorry, but I cant see where the misunderstanding is.

You quote:

Tolkien even states that only Sauron, physically present in the borders of the Wood with the power of his Ruling Ring, would be able to enter and break the defenses of the Wood. Meaning that not from a distance, and certainly not without his ring, Sauron could not enter Lorien. Much less conquer it

Differs from the one that you based it on. There is no mention of the ring being the only way that Sauron could overcome Lothlorien.

[drigel]

Quotes aside, and straying from the thread topic: I think if you can correlate Melian v Galadriel and Morgoth v Sauron, then the choice is very clear. Melian by far was the most powerfull. Galadriel was the student and Melian was the master. Ring or not, any defense that G produced would have been a mere shadow of what Melian's work. But as a fan of the Lady of the Wood, I thinks its apples and oranges .

[lindil]

Galadriel's ring was not 'offensive in nature'. There is no hint anywhere that I am aware of that indicates that the [elven] Ring would help against Sauron or the Nazgul. Elrond is quite specific about this in the Council of Elrond.

What enabled Galadriel/Lorien to withstand the Sauron and the Nine was [all military forces aside] I think the same innate power that allowed Finrod to go toe to toe with Sauron, albeit briefly, still, one Sauron doubtless remembered, and then no sooner than he defeats Finrod, than Luthien comes and humiliates and defeats him, and what pupil di d Melian have beside her own daughter?
Galadriel had in addition to the same level [more or less we may assume] of being/power of Finrod did in the fisrt age, ahd an unknown type of apprenticiship with melian, 2 more ages to cultivate her power and being. the advantage of having lived for an indeterminate amount of time in a mini-valinor and great purity of purpose.

While no Melian, she was at that time probably the most powerful Elf to have ever lived in Middle-Earth. I would surmise that only Thingol [who it is said in the Silm was 'given ' or loaned power by Melian] would have compared.

[Voralphion]

the most powerful Elf to have ever lived in Middle-Earth.

What about Luthien, who is said to be the most powerful of all the eldar, and was so powerful that she was able to put Morgoth to sleep so that Beren could steal the Silmaril.
Also as mentioned earlier she contributed to defeating Sauron and threw down the walls of Tol-in-Gaurhoth by breaking the spell that Sauron placed on the stones.

[Adanadhel]

It is interesting that when discussing elves, we seem to think that they never grow in power.

What does it mean for Galadriel to be Melian's pupil 7,000 years ago? Can she have learned more? Can she have grown in power? If so, she was probably the most powerful elf lord ever in ME. I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the elves have diminished in all things. In the past there were elves that could give Morgoth himself a good fight! Could Galadriel have done so? Could she do so against Sauron? Or did he grow in power as well. Even if he did, surely he wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Morgoth.

In short, I don't think we can judge an elf's power by who they learned from. And I hope that elves grow in knowledge and power, but perhaps they fade in power as well as in life. I vote for Melian and the Girdle over Galadriel and the ring.

[lindil]

Voralphion you posted:

What about Luthien...?

Luthien was not 'just an elf' she alone of all of the 'elves' had a Maia for a mother, so I attribute Luthien's abilities never again shown by an Elf [casting down Walls by her word, putting Morgoth to sleep!, cuasing her her to do a Rapunzel, etc.] I will admit Luthien was probably more powerful than Galadriel but it was due to her 1/2 divine DNA.

Adanedhel - as regards Elves growing in power, it is something of an assumption on my part, I agree, but I surmise that since Elves and Men are two branches of One race, and as Men can certainly can grow in power and being over time I assume the Eldar can also, if the elves 'fea' consumes their bodies over the ages [the fading of the Elves] then is not their fea growing? or is it just 'eating'?

A good question.

And I agree we can not assume that because Galadriel 'studied ' with Melian she was needs be bore powerful than say Glorfindel. Although it is [within M-E at least]an exceptional occurance.

My attribution of her growing in power was due to the earlier argument about Elf/Human nature in general, not reliant upon training.

Also it would help to clarify the differnce between skill and power, clearly Galadriel's skill increased over the ages, oneis hard pressed to imagine her abilities with Osanwe coming full blore upon her at birth. But is it necessarily tied to an increase of power?

In the case of those living in Lorien during the timeo f the usage of the ring to hold back time, this seems to have had an extremely rejuvenating effect, so that being the case could/would that not increase one's 'power' over the years?

It is such an intriguing question I will start a new topic on it.

[Iarhen]

You are right. I just re-read the first chapters of the Silmarillion, and youre absolutely right. Melian was more powerful than Galadriel, even with Nenya.

But I could have another arguing point about Luthien and Galadriel... Ill start another topic about it...

[lindil]

In the past there were elves that could give Morgoth himself a good fight! Could Galadriel have done so? Could she do so against Sauron? Or did he grow in power as well. Even if he did, surely he wasn't anywhere near as powerful as Morgoth.

Well, obviously Melian was not know as a warrior tot he extent that Fingolfin was, but I imagine she could have done nearly as well.

Against Sauron? Well we have Finrod's example. though of course when we pit them there are a host of other unknownable variables, such as woth or without repsective rings, and for Sauron, before or after Numenor or being defeated by Gil-galad/Elendil/Isildur.

I do not think maia can grow in power, save by manipulative techniques such as the One Ring. Just an opinion though.

The can and do disperse their power as Morgoth and later Sauron did and become weaker.

[In HoME X JRRT says that Morgoth at the end of the first age was weaker than Sauron witht the Ring] I think I have the Sauron part right, although it could be S. at the end of the third age, but I doubt it.

[Iarhen]

Lindil, I have a question. If Sauron grew weaker over the years, for all the power he placed forth on the Ring, and on his servants, was he weak enough to face a direct encounter with the greatest powers of good in M.E.?

Such as Gandalf, Galadriel, etc.

Because, other than the power of his all-seeing Eye and of the manipulations he showed in FOTR, TTT and ROTK, he had no other power... In a direct confrontation, maybe he was not able to bear such a struggle...

Such as the struggles that Gandalf so successfully fought. Such as Galadriel's struggle keeping the forces of Dol Guldur out of Lothlorien.

[lindil]

Well the briefest of answers is that Sauron had invested much of his might in his armies and had the the ring not gone into Orodruin, the forces would have cleaned up barring some miracle.

It is possible that Gandalf could have been sent back equipped to take Sauron out if all other plans failed, but it seems to me that somwhere in the Letters JRRT says the opposite.

Had Sauron conquered at the Morannon then the result would have been somewhat akin to a second Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Except maybe the Elves of Lorien and the West would have had time to get out, [assuming Cirdan had a few barges equipped for the Straight Road!]

Elrond says in the FotR clearly that Rivendell [and I think Lorien also] could not stand up to the full might of Sauron.

[Iarhen]

But I think that Elrond reffered to Sauron's hosts, not to Sauron himself. His power had weakened, not just because of the loss of his ring, but for all the things he had to do at the same time in the last moments of the Third Age.

Again, I presume that Gandalf had a back up plan (possibly infiltrating Mordor and vanquishing the Eye... Mithrandir, being a Maiar in full power could have banished Sauron, a maiar in disgrace)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Again, I presume that Gandalf had a back up plan (possibly infiltrating Mordor and vanquishing the Eye... Mithrandir, being a Maiar in full power could have banished Sauron, a maiar in disgrace)

Nope. The ONLY way to defeat Sauron was to destroy the ring, simple as. Infilitrating Mordor would've been nigh on impossible, for the purpouse of reaching Barad-dur and 'vanquishing Sauron' and even then vanquishing a power that was at least coeval with Gandalf in the beggining, would've been nigh on impossible to.

Also Sauron was not an 'eye', I think Tolkien mentions he had reached incarnate form.

[Ultimatejoe]

Where would you get the impression that Gandalf would be on the same footing as Sauron? Sauron at his peak was more powerful than Melkor himself (by the end of the first age.)

[Inderjit Sanghera]

To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eonwe. To the defeat of Sauron would he not then send some lesser (but mighty) spirit of the angelic people, one coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beggining, but not more?

The Istari; U.T

[Ultimatejoe]

Look closely. It doesn't say "To defeat Sauron" it says "to THEdefeat of Sauron..."

[The Saucepan Man]

The quote says that the Isatri were "coeval and equal, doubtless, with Sauron in their beginning, but not more."

Now, of course they were forbidden in their ME forms from using their full Maiar power. And also, Sauron had great armies and servants such as the Nazgul at his disposal, whereas the Istari could only give guidance and direction to the free peoples of ME.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that Gandalf, once he had become White at least, would have given Sauron a run for his money on a one to one. He was, however, constrained from attemting to do so.

[lindil]

Certainly as a normal course of events, but if Frodo had failed [well if Gollum had failed [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ] and Sauron's armies had decimated the West's, the valar would have had to intervene sooner or later, I think that was a prime reason G. was sent back as powerful and as impervious to weapons, etc, etc.

OF course there could be something in Letters I have forgotten that completely contradicts this.

But regardless it has strayed well of the topic which I think was agreed upon [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] .