Valar and Creation

[Joy]

Here again, I go off the deep end [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Valaquenta - "Whereas Melkor spent his spirit in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of other, and all their works he destroyed if he could.

I have started re-reading the Silm, read it in Jan, but didn't get much of it.

I notice that Aule created the Dwarves, could Melkor have created the Trolls in mockery of them. I was thinking that since the Dwarves were "Created" from the stone of the earth and the troll would turn to stone if they were exposed to the sun, that this could be possible.

Also, the Orc's were corupted Elves, right? One more, since Yavanna is called the Giver of Fruits and all trees and things that grow are under her care, could she have created the Ents? Then wouldn't the Huron's (sp?) be Melkor's coruption of the Ents?

[Joy]

Speaking of the Ents, I was reading further "Of Aulë and Yavanna", it states

"Nay, he said (Manwë), only the tress of Aulë will be tall enough. In the mountains the Eagles shall house, and hear the voices of thouse who call upon us. But in the forest shall walk the Shepherds of the Trees."

This is speaking of the Ents, correct? Then who made them? Was it Manwë or Yavanna?

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

hmm well they were Yavanna's idea but it doesn't sound as if she actually "made" them, so I'd say twas Manwe

[Amarinth]

hi joy! been out of the boards for too long--i missed you guys [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

got some tough questions there, girl. in the case of the ents, from a more or less contextual reading of "of aulë and yavanna" in the silm, the ents were incarnations of trees which are creations of yavanna, but their spirits or 'fea' like all other fea are invested by eru illuvatar. i'd go on a stretch here and surmise that manwë, in constant communion with the mind of eru, was speaking out of foresight about the eventual 'awakening' of yavanna's trees.

no idea about them trolls, though. which brings to mind another question: do orcs, trolls and other evil subcreations of morgoth have fea? not sure this has been asked here...

[lathspell]

Great questions, Joy!
As for the trolls being created in mockery against the dwarves, it is not so. It was in mockery against the Ents, who were also created out of Arda.
The Ents were thought of by Yavanna but they were made by Ilúvatar, or so it says in the Silmarillion - of Aulë and Yavanna:

Then Manwë awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying: "Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young." But dost thou not now remember, Kementári, that thy thought sang not always alone? Did not thy thought and mine meet also, so that we took wing together like great birds that soar above the clouds? That also shall come to be by the heed of Ilúvatar, and before the Children awake there shall go forth with wings like the wind the Eagles of the Lords of the West.'

The Ents were part of Yavanna's song, so she created them in thought, and Ilúvatar made them for real.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: Amarinth - please explain the word 'fea'. I tried to translate it, but couldn't find anything. Do you mean 'fee'?

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I had always thought Hourns were Ents who were "falling asleep", not corruptions of Ents.

[Kuruharan]

Also, the Orc's were corupted Elves, right?

Unclear. Tolkien (as far as we can tell) never seems to have settled all the questions of orcish nature.

I had always thought Hourns were Ents who were "falling asleep", not corruptions of Ents.

Correct. Although Huorns could go bad at heart, but they were not corruptions of Morgoth.

please explain the word 'fea'

Fea-think soul

[TarElendil]

Also, the Orc's were corupted Elves, right? One more, since Yavanna is called the Giver of Fruits and all trees and things that grow are under her care, could she have created the Ents? Then wouldn't the Huron's (sp?) be Melkor's coruption of the Ents?

Orcs were corrupted elves and men, not just elves. She gave the idea of the ents to manweand manwe being the king of ea under eru held converse with him in his mind.

All have their worth, and each contributes to the worth of others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon their bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them!

said by yavanna to manwe.

O Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying:'Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the song. even the least sound of the least voice?Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also.."

said by manwe speaking on the behalf of Eru. It was eru who created the ents.

[Leto]

TreeBeard told Merry and Pippin that Trolls were mockeries of Ents. Huorn are not of Melkor. They are ents that have become 'treeish' (or trees that are becoming 'entish'). And some trees, just like some people, are just naturally bad. Orcs are mockeries of Elves, or Men, or both maybe.

[Joy]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I am now on chapter 7 of the Sil. Started again last night. The first time through was very difficult, as I didn't understand anything! I was just overwhelmed with the infomation. Plus I was trying to read all versions of the story at once, so I was reading the Sil, UT and BoLT1 and 2 all together. My mind was fried! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Amarinth]

lathspell-

'fea' i believe is quenya for spirit or soul; e.g. 'feanor'= spirit of fire; the 'feanturi' = lords of spirits? namo ang irmo (lorien and mandos). i don't have my silm with me so i can't check the exact translation...anyway, some months ago there were several threads about the nature and/or existence of fea in some rather borderline cases in the silm (e.g. huan), and joy's thread kinda reminded me of those.

well (scratches head), inasmuch as i respect your and other downers opinion on who really created the ents, IMHO i still believe the ents were made by yavanna based on the context of the exact passages quoted above [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. the ents are "thoughts of yavanna" touched by eru during the song of creation-incipient subcreations from the mind of yavanna. and just as in the case of all the valar who eventually entered ëa and made their "thoughts" manifest in arda —manwë and his wind, varda and her stars, aulë and his mountains— kementari's were made manifest in trees, which by the "thought" of eru (investment of fea?) can in time incarnate into or "wake up" as ents. at least that's how i understand it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], and how i (like to) understand how the system of creation worked in the valaquenta. 'course i may be just cooky, so kill me if you will [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Joy]

Amarinth, thanks, that's kind of how I understood it too. You just said it better than I did. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]