Smeagol = Hobbit???

[Rhudladion]

Gollum was a Hobbit, right?
Here's my question: If I'm not mistaken, it was made clear at the council of Elrond that Gollum was a Hobbit. If it was made clear, then Frodo and Sam heard it. So...do you think their knowing this had anything to do with Frodo's pitying him or Sam's distrusting him? Also, did it have anything to do with Gollum's interaction with them.

If I'm just proclaiming my ignorance, please forgive me for wasting space on the forum.

"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement."
Thats what Gandalf told Frodo in Hobbiton. He remembers it later. i think this is the main reason why he is pitying him.

[Maeglin]

Well it seams resonable but wasn't it in Khazad-dum?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Originally posted by Maeglin:
<STRONG>Well it seams resonable but wasn't it in Khazad-dum?</STRONG>

Only in the movie. Not in the book.

[Rhudladion]

I am aware that frodo remembers Gandalf's litle speach. What I want to know (maybe I did not make myself clear) is whether Gollum's being a hobbit had anything to do with the interaction between he, Frodo, and Sam.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

Good topic. Subtle.

Gandalf pointed out to support his theory that Gollum was a Hobbit, that he and Bilbo shared much of the same background, knew the same riddles and so forth. Not to mention resistance to "fading."

Gandalf said they understood eachother better than, say an elf would understand a dwarf (that's not the quote, but you get the idea).

Based on this I think it's entirely possible Frodo would have more common ground, and therefore understanding, as a basis for pity for poor Gollum. Understanding is the basis for pity, ability to put oneself in another's shoes.

But I think more than that, Frodo's experience with the ring gave him insight into what had tortured Gollum into this state.

It's more of a stretch to say Sam detested Gollum for the same reasons. You could say that he had hobbit-like expections that Gollum certainly didn't measure up to, there was an equality between them you don't find with say, orcs or wargs.

But he detested Gollum because of the threat he posed to Frodo, and because G. was just disgusting. Sam didn't have the experience of carrying the ring to explain Gollum's behavior, he considered this his inherent personality and despised him. His attitude slightly changed after Cirith Ungol. Strangely, just when you'd think he'd hate Gollum most, after Shelob's Lair, he actually hated him less. He lightened up on the little bugger after wearing the ring a bit.

I believe that's part of the reason Sam didn't kill Gollum at Orodruin. You could say that the pity of Sam and Bilbo is what ruled the fate of many.

-Maril

[Eldar14]

There's is one part of the movie which freaked me out which one could use as evidence to show that smeagol was a hobbit. In the movie, when Bilbo sees the ring on Frodo's neck, and Frodo hides it, for a split second Bilbo's eyes and mouth turn into ones that look just like Gollum's. It freaked me out severely.

[Marileangorifurnimaluim]

It's hard to use movie-Bilbo's physical transformation in Rivendell as evidence, because the movie exaggerates what happened in the book in that scene. Tolkien's language plays with perception in a couple scenes by describing the impression - in this case Frodo's - rather than what physically happened. I consider that the source of the balrog-wings debate too BTW.

[ January 24, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

[dragongirlG]

I always thought Gollum was a hobbit, but in the index it says "Stoor" for Deagol...so is that some kind of Neanderthal for hobbits?

[Bruce MacCulloch]

The Stoors were one of the three "breeds" of hobbit. The other two were Harfoots and Fallohides.

[Aralaithiel]

Thanks! I had forgotten about the 3 types of hobbits! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I love this board! I learn all sorts of goodies! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Elven-Maiden]

Yes, Gollum was an ancient form of Hobbit. But I doubt that had any bearing on Sam and Frodo. If Sam had thought about it, he might have been kinder to him.

That's my opinion, at any rate.

[Birdland]

Originally posted by Marileangorifurnimaluim:
<STRONG>It's more of a stretch to say Sam detested Gollum for the same reasons. You could say that he had hobbit-like expections that Gollum certainly didn't measure up to, there was an equality between them you don't find with say, orcs or wargs.

-Maril</STRONG>

A good point Maril...(etc., etc.) The very thought that Gollum was a hobbit must have made the feelings of disgust that Sam had for him much more personal. Sam has a much more "black and white" outlook on life than Frodo has, and would be far less likely to rationalize Gollum's fall into evil and madness.

And in a way, Sam has a point. I remember one of the characters saying something to the effect that "Hobbits would never intentionally kill another Hobbit." Yet within minutes of his cousin Deagol finding the rings, Smeagol strangles him to possess it. And he then returns to his family and immediately puts the ring to use to spy, steal from, and blackmail other Hobbits. If the ring corrupted Smeagol, it seems like it didn't have to work very hard to do it.

Makes you wonder about them Stoors, doesn't it?

The fact that Gollum survived as long as he did (considering the many chances others had to take him out of the picture) actually brings up an interesting question about the role of fate in LOTR. In the movie, Gandalf tells Frodo that Bilbo was "meant" to find the ring, and that Frodo was "meant" to have it. There are references to fate in the book, as well. Remember the riddle that Boromir brought to the council of Elrond:

"Seek for the Sword that was broken:
In Imladris it dwells;
There shall be counsels taken
Stronger than Morgul-spells.
There shall be shown a token
That Doom is near at hand,
For Isildur's Bane shall waken,
And the Halfling forth shal stand."

There is also the famous line that Bilbo shouts out during this counsel, the last bit of which is:

"Renewed shall be blade that is broken,
The crownless again shall be king."

It's always interested me, the emphasis that is put on bloodlines and fates in this story. Aragorn is destined to his end because of the strength of his blood. Likewise, it seems that Frodo has been intended for his fate since before anyone knew that this journey would need to take place.

I tend to shy away from the idea of fate, because it takes away from the heroism of an act like the ones in LOTR, but the fact that Gollum lived long enough to play a vital role in this story does seem to indicate a certain level of destiny.

[Lila Bramble]

Indeed, Gollum was a hobbit, shrivelled under the power of the ring, and living its everlasting life after so long in it's presence.

Pity is a thing not everyone can give, but Frodo has a kind heart and a determined soul. Gandalf is a great wizard with wisdom beyond any others, so Frodo chose wisely to consider his words.

Sam distrusted Gollum because his only concern was his master, so he paid no heed to any others saying.He decided that what ever need to protect his master, he would do so, even if teh chance of danger was but a small fraction of an atom.

Being a hobbit was nothing to do with the misturust or pity on Gollum, but still indeed it was a good question.

[Daniel Telcontar]

As many has stated, pity is why Gollum is spared. And I think it is a good way to show how pity on your enemies is used to turn evil against evil so good may defeat it.

By the way, Rhudladion, you should change your signature. There is no shame in asking questions, if there where, this board wouldn't exist. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Naaramare]

I consider that the source of the balrog-wings debate too BTW.

Not quite. The Balrog debate has been around since I was twelve . . .a good five years before they even announced they were making a second set of movies. From what my father (who is forty) tells me, the debate was around before the cartoon.

[Kin-strife]

To go back to Solikat's point about fate in lotr I think it all goes back to the music of the Ainur in the Ainulindale which seems to predetermine the entire history of Middle-earth. Glimpses of which, perhaps, are seen by the wise. Hence the prophecies you cited.

[akhtene]

If we assume that everything in Middle Earth is predetermined, then probably Frodo wouldn't have had any chance of killing Gollum (be it for pity or for any other reason)

On the other hand, for us who have freedom of choice, the book gives a lesson - never take irreversible actions (like killing even a monster) untill you really have to. You never know what awaits you in future. Even the monster can come out useful. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: akhtene ]

[the real findorfin]

Going off o a tangent slightly, where did all these prophecies come from?

If the Valar could only see limpses of the Music then were the entire prophecies from Eru?

[Jessica Jade]

I've been wondering...since the Ring had stretched his life beyond his mind's endurance, reducing it only to a meaningless desire... Did Gollum remember that he once was a hobbit? I know he had memories of more pleasant times before he became evil (like in The Hobbit during the Riddle Game...but does he remember what he really used to be?

[MallornLeaf]

yes, Gollum was a hobbit. It says somewhere *forgive my ignorance, I can't remember where--weather the Sil, Unfinished tales, appendices, etc* that there were 3 different species (if you will) of hobbits. Each settled in different places. the only ones that survived til the third age were the ones that lived in the shire. Gollum, however, had been from a different "species". I don't really think that they all being hobbits had anything to do with their interaction. Frodo originally distrusted Gollum (pity bilbo didn't kill him. . .) but after bearing the ring, he could understand him, and pitied him. Sam did not have the burden of the ring (long enough) to make that connection with Gollum. Maybe I'm completley mistaken, but thats just what i always thought

[Jessica Jade]

In the movie, when Bilbo sees the ring on Frodo's neck, and Frodo hides it, for a split second Bilbo's eyes and mouth turn into ones that look just like Gollum's. It freaked me out severely.

That never fails to scare me out of my wits--every single time i watch the movie. *shudders*

Pity is a thing not everyone can give, but Frodo has a kind heart and a determined soul. Gandalf is a great wizard with wisdom beyond any others, so Frodo chose wisely to consider his words.
-Lila Bramble

On the other hand, for us who have freedom of choice, the book gives a lesson - never take irreversible actions (like killing even a monster) untill you really have to. You never know what awaits you in future. Even the monster can come out useful.
-akhtene

For further discussion/analyzation of those aspects, please visit "The Meaning of Pity and Mercy" Thread . I promise that you will find it thought-provoking and worth considering.

[Amarantha Gamwich-Baggins]

Well thank heavens Frodo and Sam never got like that.

[Lila Bramble]

Yes, when I saw Bilbo then, it reminded me of Gollum. Like Gollum, after having the ring so long in his possesion, Bilbo started to fall and change under the pressure of its power. It was VERY freaky in the movie, but after I started to laugh.

In other matters, does Gollum remember he was a hobbit? He was wondering what Bilbo was, and really Bilbo was of his own race. Could this leave a clue?

[The Human Of Our Time]

<font color="A8A8A8">Yess, yesss we is a hobbit. gollum gollum