Which books are canon?

[burrahobbit]

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I bought The Silmarillion today (yipee!!!). Afterwards I thought to myself, &quot;Now I have all of the canon.&quot; But then I started wondering, what exactly is canon? And what isn't?

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Celebringnar]

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Re: Which books are canon?

I've never heard of that phrase in relation to literature. Where did you hear it Burrahobbit? Was it in relation to Tolkien's works? Hmmmmm... will look into that...

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Which books are canon?

The word canon if often used in discussion of Tolkien's works. It means 'law', and people using it refer to which of the novels can be considered 'fact' and which are just speculations by later authors (in this case, Christopher Tolkien).

The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit are definitey canon. JRRT wrote them and had them published. The Silmarillion is also considered canon because Christopher Tolkien compiled it from materiel already written by his father.

Once you start getting into Unfinished Tales you already begin to drift from canon because you are presented with multiple versions of the same story. Even further from canon is the entire History of Middle Earth series. This group of books describes the construction of Middle-Earth rather than a narrative of it.

mailto:barrow-wight@kitgraphics.comThe Barrow-Wight</a>
http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a></p>Edited by <A HREF=http://pub12.ezboard.com/urkittle.showPublicProfile>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 6/13/00 8:01:40 am

[burrahobbit]

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Re: Which books are canon?

Thanks.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit
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Re: Which books are canon?

It's indisputable that The Hobbit, The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings alone make up pure Middle-Earth canon.

However, what of other works Tolkien wrote and saw published? The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, Smith of Wooton Major, et cetera... I don't consider them to be canon, and most people don't, but they were pure Tolkien...

<hr><font face=verdana size=2>IronParrot, administrator of <a href=http://pub4.ezboard.com/bnicktheshadow>Nick the Shadow</a> and <a href=http://pub3.ezboard.com/btomorrowzeworld>Tomorrow, Ze World!</a> and moderator at <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/bbenjaminstolkienboard>Entmoot</a>, is famous for wearing pens on his belt and is currently <img src=http://online.mirabilis.com/scripts/online.dll?icq=22843402&img=5 align=absmiddle> (ICQ #22843402).

<font size=1>I'd put a witty quote here, but most of my best ones can be found <a href=http://pub4.ezboard.com/fnicktheshadowmiscellaneous.showMessage?topicID=40 .topic>here</a>.

</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Which books are canon?

It is disputed by many of the 'experts' that the Silmarillion is 'canonical' since CT admitted to editorial alterations and had to rewrite some sections to make the book internally consistent.

Tar-Elenion

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://pub12.ezboard.com/utarelenion.showPublicProfile>Tar Elenion</A> at: 7/2/00 6:08:44 pm

[The Barrow-Wight]

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Re: Which books are canon?

That's true, Tar Elenion. I know that CT definitely had a part in much of the Silmarillion content and chronology, but for some reason I've always still considered it canonical. Probably because it was written as one storyline with no alternate versions like in the HoME series.

mailto:barrow-wight@kitgraphics.comThe Barrow-Wight</a>
http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a></p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bloody.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

Yeah, that's true. I've considered Sil to be canon simply because it's published with Tolkien's name on it... I guess that's not a very good justification, is it? However, I never cite Sil when I talk about Middle Earth - probably because I've never been able to finish it!

<hr><font face=verdana size=2>IronParrot, administrator of <a href=http://pub4.ezboard.com/bnicktheshadow>Nick the Shadow</a> and <a href=http://pub3.ezboard.com/btomorrowzeworld>Tomorrow, Ze World!</a> and moderator at <a href=http://pub2.ezboard.com/bbenjaminstolkienboard>Entmoot</a>, is famous for wearing pens on his belt and is currently <img src=http://online.mirabilis.com/scripts/online.dll?icq=22843402&img=5 align=absmiddle> (ICQ #22843402).

<font size=1>I'd put a witty quote here, but most of my best ones can be found <a href=http://pub4.ezboard.com/fnicktheshadowmiscellaneous.showMessage?topicID=40 .topic>here</a>.

</p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/narya.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

IMHO ,
CRRT should have gone ahead and synthesized all the non-conflictingdetails from unfinished/lost tales and co. into the silmarillion framework and published it. He had to do that on a small scale w/ the silm. anyway. I vaguly recall him saying something to that effect in on of the HoME intro's .
But I can understand his reluctance to take it on -although it would have been an easier job than this giant series.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/12/00 10:06:42 am

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

I've had similar thoughts, lindil. Unfinished Tales is very similar to the Sil in many respects, and all it would have taken was for CT to make a few decisions like he did in the Sil to have made it into a more 'canonic' volume (easier said than done). Even though CT had a large part in the Sil, I still consider it canon in my mind if not 'officially'.

Of course, by the time he publish UT he was already taking flak for the liberties he had taken with the Sil. It's quite likely what tempered CT's editorial pen.

btw. Welcome to the board, lindil. Very good first post! Hope we see more from you.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000002>RKittle</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/oneringicon.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 7/12/00 10:26:37 am

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

The Silmarillion was synthesized from materials of varying age and varying stages of completion. CT managed to put it together within 4 years of JRRT's death. When you read HoME, you begin to understand that some of what went into the Silmarillion was in excess of 25 years old while other materials were from the late 1950s or early 1960s. In the later volumes of HoME, CT frequently voices regrets concerning &quot;editorial&quot; decisions he made in putting the Silmarillion together. Obviously, during the 20+ years that he has worked on HoME, he has discovered materials he missed when preparing the Silm. for publication. This is the reason some people reject the Silmarillion as &quot;canon&quot;. However, most of the things CT regrets are minor in scope, such as the identity of Gil-Galad's father. The Silm. is mostly faithful to his father's latest &quot;finished&quot; conceptions of the tales it contains.

</p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

Would it be correct to say that the Unfinished Tales were nearly as faithful as the Silmarillion? Or are there just too many things in it that are too speculative to honestly call the book true to JRRT's view on Middle-Earth?

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

I don't know how many of you clearly remember the seventies first-hand. I think that the Silmarillion was dictated by market as well as by CRRT's desire to complete his father's work. LotR had, perhaps, its biggest commercial breakout in the seventies and the early eighties. There was tons of tie-in. You couldn't go into a mainstream -- much less into an indie -- bookseller without seeing lots and lots of Tolkien merchandise: calendars, poters, totes, etc. Rankin Bass did their lousy Animated Hobbit the same year as the Silmarillion was published. And Smaug marched in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. (Does he still?) I suspect that commercial pressure dictated that CRRT finish Silmarillion during the boom and in a format that wouldn't limit its market-share to the true-believers. Hence the fairly straight-forward narrative strands. Despite which, I recall that reviewers were quite divided on the question of whether this wasn't, perhaps, too much of a good thing. So I doubt that CRRt cold have integrated anymore into it. Before JRRt had made them kaboodles of money, he tried over and over to sell George Allen and Unwin on the Silmarillion and the bottom-line always dictated its refusal. I don't remember that the early volumes of HoME were met with any of the same kind of fanfare that greeted Silmarillion.
None of which are bases for judging the intrinsic merits of the various books, but might at least explain some of the decision making.

</p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

I grew up reading the hobbit and lotr in the late 70's [right after star wars came out actually] and by the time I had read lotr the 2nd time or so I was given a SILMARILLION for Christmas that year.
I saw the movie -but I don't remember that much hoopla {like their was around star wars}
In fact for me it was an EXTREMELY private afair.
I retreated into my suburban forests and my room[ which I insisted be painted grey and dark green] and proceeded w/ tolkien and God and the forrests help to completely revise
[ destroy is probably more accurate] how I looked at the world -
my little suburban corner of northern virg. anyway.
I was so introverted w/ it than when a fellow [soon to become my best friend and co-founder of our little tolkien society]
sawme [re-]reading fellowship and wanted to spark a convo. I was very reluctant to let any one into what I saw as &quot;my&quot;world - I became so consciously
anti-&quot;society&quot; that it dos not suprise me that I missed out on just how -&quot;in the public domain &quot; middle - earth had become .
the bakshi movie only reinforced my strong opinions of the day that &quot;the world &quot; could never do right by tolkien -so would be bett3er off just leaving it alone.
any way... galpsi I was to out of the loop/and too young 12 or so to be aware of the idea of $ pressures- I didn't give it a thought till letters came out. Re: the silmarillion as canon what other choice at the moment is there?
It gives me thought that maybe CRRT could be formally petitioned to tie it all up and if he wasn't interested in it -maybe {now here is an idea} he could let the tolkien community have crack at it by international-internet commitee !
What better way to put such love of middle-earth and Valinor to practical use ? anyway the thought never occured to me to judge negatively CRRT's editing job of the SILM.
I considered it so amazing in and of itself and that it ever saw the light of this sun [other than in manuscript that is ].However as Unfinished Tales came out {which I feel contains some of his most polished writing
and as Barrow-Wight/wraith of A. mentioned it could be integrated w/the Silm w/ &quot;relative&quot;ease thus expanding the&quot; canon &quot;a bit at least -and I do think that a final version of the tales is a worthy ideal - and one that JRRT labored towards his
entire adult life that it would be a worthy legacy for those who may follow after us.
but for now I put my critical mind to rest by viewing unfinished /history as variants that might have come from differing historical /cultural periods suchas 4th age great -great-great-great- great grandkids of the hobbits
[w/out a redbook of w.] or even &quot;5th &quot; age tales by a long decayed or dwindled dunedain-etc.
however I think CRRT has done an amazing and to my knowledge unique thing in publishing such a history .
and I imagine that an un-official-&quot;official&quot; canon if you will could be done on the internet as long as no one tried to publish it .
what a beautiful debate /consensus that would be ! just coming up with the
&quot;rules&quot; and agreeing on a process/voting and finallizing method could take a year! but it would be worth it and even the publishers would prob. be intrigued at the idea of thousands of folks completing their unfinished/history collection to be able to take part.
btw thanks for the welcome and the excellent discussion - and please forgive any excessively long postings as I get used to this way o' talkin.
lindil
lindil

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/13/00 12:36:57 pm

[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

I don't have a copy of Unfinished Tales in front of me so I'm working from memory. If I recall, in response to RKittle's post, Unfinished Tales was made up of later work which Tolkien did (post-LoTR) on the Silmarillion and other subjects. In one of JRRT's letters, written about the time LoTR was first published, he commented that the Silm. was LONGER than LoTR. While this might have been his own error, I suspect that JRRT was addressing the way the Silm. would be after a rewrite along the lines of what appears in Unfinished Tales, where his rewrite of just a few chapters of what became the Silm. took up hundreds of pages. This is my own personal suspicion and I can't back it up. However,The Wanderings of Hurin (HoME XII) might support this. There, we have a relatively lengthy story which essentially did not appear in Silm. expanding on what was addressed in a sentence or two. So my opinion is that Unfinished Tales is closer to what JRRT intended to publish.

Certainly economic pressures might have contributed to CT publishing the Silm. so quickly. But he may also have wanted to put together JRRT's material quickly so that it could be published in some &quot;final&quot; form before too much time passed after JRRT's death. For all we know, Allen Unwin (or whatever it was then) told CT they would publish it only if he got it done in within a couple of years. Letters and HoME make clear that whatever their initial view of the Silm. was in the 1920s or 1930s, after LoTR took off they would have published the Silm. The problem was that JRRT never finished it.

CT is now in his 70s or 80s. I doubt that he will undertake an additional rewrite of the Silm. (and after HoME what would he say). I also doubt that the Estate would let anyone else touch it.

</p>

[galpsi]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Which books are canon?

Welcome newly deceased!
You must be newly deceased; your posts are still so lively. I think that Mithadan is right. That the family and the publishers are little likely to act upon any suggestions coming out of the fan universe, valid and organized or otherwise. (c.f. my post under the topic &quot;Middle Earth&quot Nevertheless I think that that makes Lindil's idea for a council to hammer out canon all the more gratifying. There has been a good deal of discussion on this thread about canon, but it has basically ignored the prototypical example of canon-formation, the councils of the early church which decided which books would be gospel and which would be apocrypha. I conclude that the Professor was a Catholic of a most conciliar stripe and I don't doubt that he would smile upon such an undertaking.
fyi, on this board, there is an established usage to the effect that only Hobbit, LotR and Sil. are canon. The Wraith, however, has also said that this is open to reform if a new consensus emerged. Let's just keep the schisms and kin-slaying friendly. <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

</p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: Which books are canon?

Thanks for the welcome. I've been haunting (no pun intended) a number of Tolkien boards over the past couple of years and I rather like this one. I have no problem with a &quot;canon&quot; of The Hobbit, LoTR and The Silm. Those who are critical of CT's editorial work in the Silm. ignore the fact that but for him we would not have had the chance to read about the First Age. Matters might have been worse if the Silm. had been handed to an author outside of the family, and at least CT gave us a chance to see JRRT's own conceptions by putting together HoME (which must have been a nightmarish undertaking). That notwithstanding, HoME provides us with a chance to gain more info on Middle Earth beyond what is in the &quot;canon&quot; including a lot that is worthy of dicussion.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Which books are canon?

galpsi ,
thanks for your support [or should I say interest]
in the matter of canon and council.
mithadan -I don't doubt for a moment that crrt is prob. deluged w/ middle - earth material and feedback and whatnot and
and that he and the publishers are probably not interested in relinquishing any artistic rights or even fielding suggestions. but... imho
the canon of the silmarillion is the only thing left to do after HoME -as to what elsecrrt would have to say - what I am proposing is of a different order of HoME [which I agree- can only be seen as a herculean labor]
HoME however ,while it
gives us all the peices to the puzzle does not put them together for us- or to drop the metaphor-
leaves the canonical Silmarillion [which I concede may have well been the only realistic Silmarillion doable at the time- and for me was the Old Testament in my early teenage years -so while I am grateful it has been available these many years] the feeling of it being in need of a final version ,incorporating all of the expanded and emmended material from
Unfinished/History is to me the logical next and final step in the &quot;canon&quot;.
I have a few more formal ideas re: this - but I think maybe letting it percolate a bit is a good thing.
galpsi - re: tolkien's conciliarity- I think you are right- to me it is a great pity he did not have the chance{ that I am aware of} to encounter
Orthodox Christianity- the most conciliar of all groups claiming a historical and spiritual transmission from Christ and his Apostles.
His theology in Finrod and Andreth is so full of the flavor of Orthodoxy that I was amazed ... even thogh the Orthodox and Catholics share a common first 1000 years- his theology is markedly different in tone
and depth from anything I have encountered amongst the R.C. 's in recent times.

As to wether or not JRRT would approve ?
I would certainly like to think so- but I think CRRT should have the first crack- and if he formally or silently says nay -then in my opinion we have a duty if I may use so strong a word to complete what JRRT regarded as the heart of the mythos -as more important than lotr.
but I agree a the idea of a council to hash it out on the internet has a certain beauty - even to this repressed luddite wanna-be.
as to the question of legal rights and so forth - if nothing else could be arranged there could be a virtual Silmarillion- where after discussion/debate and voting{?!} the changes from the currently published Silm. could be listed w/ the page and beginings of their source {unfinished/HoME}
so that all changes and could be avail on the net for any one to put together as they will- privately.
so-much for percolatin'.
lindil

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/17/00 1:04:00 am

[galpsi]

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Re: Which books are canon?

You could, of course, always do like the Jews and differently distinguish the relative authorities of written and oral Torah. Or like the Jews and the Muslims create a meaningfully different category of commentary.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Which books are canon?

I think that personally I would most like to see a Silmarillion w/ staight forward chapters as per the current volume.but with all storline [such as wanderings of hurin] added to whatever degree possible . with the occasional[ ?] footnote relating&quot;other histories have told&quot; ... or &quot;according to the oldest traditions&quot;. It seems JrrT used a bit of this[as in Aragorns saying of the tale of beren and luthien-that no one knows the true ending except perhaps elrond.
and maybe an appendices w/ non - story type history and commentary like &quot;quendi and eldar &quot; from vol xi.
different levels of canon as you suggest belong more properly I believe to a living religion [esp. Christianity- where such matters in fact pertain to the orientation and salvation of the soul and spirit] instead of a sub-creation.
But someone at the white council
{m.martinez ?} said something similar recently. that there could be a couple of different types of canon. to my [admittedly limited } mind one would be plenty.
lindil

one more thing- perhaps as an experiment we can start a thread on 1 story of the silm. and see where it goes?
lindil

</p>

[galpsi]

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Re: Which books are canon?

It would surely be welcome. Just start it.

</p>

[lindil]

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Re: Which books are canon?

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</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 7/26/00 11:04:03 am