* *Revised Fall of Gondolin pt.3 [revisions to' Tuor in G.' & revisions toMaeglin] **

[lindil]

As mentioned in Pt 2 this has been slit off from the original "Revised Fall of Gondolin"

-lindil

Tuor in Gondolin

FG-TG-01
{Then Tuor's heart was heavy and Voronwe wept and Tuor sat by the great fountain of the king and its splashing recalled the music of the waves, and his soul was troubled by the conches of Ulmo and he would return down the waters of Sirion to the sea.}
In the later story, the urging of Ulmo through Tuor that Turgon prepare an assault on Angband is gone, as should be Tuor's weeping.

FG-TG-02
{and she was} [Idril Celebrindal, the] daughter of the king.
Idril has already appeared in the story.

FG-TG-03
{and how there had been divided counsels in that matter, yet pity for the enthralled Noldoli had prevailed in the end to its making}
There is no later mention of such divided counsel, and the enthralled Noldor motif was later significantly downplayed.

FG-TG-04
{, and it was made of Gnome-steel overlaid with silver; but his helm was adorned with a device of metals and jewels like to two swan-wings, one on either side, and a swan's wing was wrought on his shield}
Use previously

FG-TG-05
{ - and many murmured and would fain have backed him into battle with the Orcs, seeing that the speeches of those two, Tuor and Turgon, before the palace were known to many; but this matter went not further for reverence of Turgon, and because at this time in Tuor's heart the thought of the words of Ulmo seemed to have grown dim and far off.}
Same reason as in TG-01.

FG-TG-06
and the strands of her fate were woven with his even from that day when first she gazed upon him {from a high window} as he stood a way-worn suppliant before the palace of the king.
According to TO, Idril is in the king's chamber when Tuor arrives, not at a high window.

FG-TG-07
{Thus was first wed a child of Men with a daughter of Elfinesse, nor was Tuor the last}
According to LQ, with Beren and Luthien.

FG-TG-08
{and that tale of Isfin and Eöl may not here be told}
This will have been told earlier.

FG-TG-09
{Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true.}
I think this should be deleted, though we are without any direct contradiction of it. There is no later indication that Maeglin was 'swart', and certainly there were not rumours that he had Orc's blood!

FG-TG-10
{Now he had bid often with the king for the hand of Idril, yet Turgon finding her very loth had as often said nay, for him seemed Meglin's suit was caused as much by the desire of standing in high power beside the royal throne as by love of that most fair maid.} /*QS77 And {Maeglin's} [his] secret hatred grew ever greater, for he esired above all things to possess {her} Idril, the only heir of the King of Gondolin.*/

FG-TG-11 KO
In these days came to pass the fulfilment of the time of the desire of the Valar and the hope of [the] Eldalië

FG-TG-12
{Now thereto there are many interpretations both among Elves and Men, but belike it was a name wrought of some secret tongue among the Gondothlim and that has perished with them from the dwellings of the Earth.}
The etymology of 'Earendil' is obviously not now a secret.


Maeglin's Treachery

FG-M-01 Gondolin revealed
/*QS77 None knew that the region wherein the Hidden Kingdom lay had been at last revealed to Morgoth by the cries of Húrin, when standing in the wilderness beyond the Encircling Mountains and finding no entrance he called on Turgon in despair. Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion.*/
This is almost certainly an editorial insertion by CT based on the account in WH but may be retained as it states only what we know must be the case. We don't have the freedom to create one as good by ourselves out of fragments.

FG-M-02 Morgoth sends spies.
{Behold now many years have gone since Tuor was lost amid the foothills and deserted by those Noldoli; yet many years too have gone since to Melko's ears came first those strange tidings − faint were they and various in form − of a Man wandering amid the dales of the waters of Sirion. Now Melko was not much afraid of the race of Men in those days of his great power, and for this reason did Ulmo work through one of this kindred for the better deceiving of Melko, seeing that no Valar and scarce any of the Eldar or Noldoli might stir unmarked of his vigilance. Yet nonetheless foreboding smote that ill heart at the tidings,} [And] {and} {he} [Morgoth] got together a mighty army of spies; sons of the {Orcs} [Orks] were there with eyes of yellow and green like cats that could pierce all glooms and see through mist or fog or night; snakes that could go everywhither and search all crannies or the deepest pits or the highest peaks, listen to every whisper that ran in the grass or echoed in the hills; wolves there were and ravening dogs and great weasels full of the thirst of blood whose nostrils could take scent moons old through running water, or whose eyes find among shingle footsteps that had passed a lifetime since; owls came and falcons whose keen glance might descry by day or night the fluttering of small birds in all the woods of the world, and the movement of every mouse or vole or rat that crept or dwelt throughout the Earth. All these he summoned to his Hall of Iron, and they came in multitudes. Thence he sent them over the Earth to seek this Man who had escaped from the Land of Shadows, but yet far more curiously and intently to search out the dwelling of the {Noldoli} [Noldor] {that had escaped his thraldom} [of Turgon]; for these his heart burnt to destroy or to enslave.
The modifications are the change of "he" to "Morgoth" for readiblity and of the phrase "that had escaped his thraldom} to "of Turgon". The sons of Fëanor and their people are also free from Morgoth's thraldom. This phrase may go back to Tolkien's original version of FG where the sons of Fëanor probably did not exist.

FG-M-03 Findings of the spies
Now while Tuor dwelt in happiness and in great increase of knowledge and might in Gondolin, these creatures through the years untiring nosed among the stones and rocks, hunted the forests and the heaths, espied the airs and lofty places, tracked all paths about the dales and plains, and neither let nor stayed. From this hunt they brought a wealth of tidings to {Melko} [Morgoth] − indeed {among} many hidden things {that} they dragged to light {they discovered that Way of Escape whereby Tuor and Voronwë entered aforetime. Nor had they done so save by constraining some of the less stout of the Noldoli with dire threats of torment to join in that great ransacking; for because of the magic about that gate no folk of Melko unaided by the Gnomes could come to it. Yet now they had pried of late far into its tunnels and captured within many of the Noldoli creeping there to flee from thraldom}. They had scaled too the Encircling {Hills*} [Mountains] at certain places {and gazed upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwareth from afar; but into the plain they could not win for} /*WH though because of*/ the vigilance of its guardians /*WH [and] the Eagles*/ and the difficulty of those mountains /*WH no spy of {his} Morgoth's could yet come within sight of the land behind {the Encircling Mountains}*/ [them to] /*FG {gazed} [gaze] upon the beauty of the city of Gondolin and the strength of Amon Gwared from afar*/.
This is somewhat confusing as I have moved phrases to different positions in the last sentence to retain as much as possible and they show twice in this text, once as deleted and once as being retained or being inserted. In the original FG the spies could see Gondolin from the heights but could get no farther because of the vigilence of the Elves. In WH the spies cannot get even that far because of the vigilence of the Eagles. However I have kept the watch of the Elves also. In this account both Eagles and Elves are active. CT similarly keeps mentions of the "leaguer" from Q30 in QS77.

FG-M-04
{Now it so chanced that not long after Meglin went to the hills for the getting of ore,
…
and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the Orcs and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.}
Use later

FG-M-05 Turgon's policy of isolation continues.
Now the years fare by, and egged by Idril Tuor keepeth ever at his secret delving{;}[.] /*Q30 Tidings Turgon heard of {Thorndor} [Thorondor] concerning the slaying of Dior, Thingol's heir, and thereafter he shut his ear to word of the woes without; and he vowed to march never at the side of any son of Fëanor; and his folk he forbade ever to pass the leaguer of the hills*/ but seeing that the leaguer of spies hath grown thinner Turgon dwelleth more at ease and in less fear.
The final ruin of Doriath belongs chronologically to this period and so is inserted at this point. I have noticed the awkward changes of tenses and levels of archaism in the resulting sentence. I am purposely not dealing with such stylistic problems at this time.
In published writings an account of the construction of the secret way appears only in QS77 and FG indicating the account in FG is probaby a summary of the FG account by CT and Guy Kay.

FG-M-06 Maeglin is captured.
/*Q30 On a time when Eärendil was yet young, and the days of Gondolin were full of joy and peace {(and yet Idril's heart misgave her, and foreboding crept upon her spirit like a cloud)}, Maeglin was lost. Now Maeglin loved mining and quarrying after metals above other craft; and he was master and leader of the Elves who worked in the mountains distant from the city, seeking for metals for their smithying of things both of peace and war. But often Maeglin went with few of his folk beyond the leaguer of the hills, though the king knew not that his bidding was defied; and so it came to pass, as fate willed, that Maeglin*/ /*FG straying in the mountains alone was taken /*Q30 prisoner*/ by some of the {Orcs} [Orks] prowling there, and they would do him evil and terrible hurt, knowing him to be a man of the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim]. This was however unknown of Tuor's watchers. {But} /*QS30 {Meglin} [Maeglin] was no weakling or craven, but the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his soul, and*/ evil came into the heart of {Meglin} [Maeglin], and he said to his captors: "Know then that I am {Meglin} [Maeglin] son of Eöl who had to wife {Isfin} [Aredhel] sister of Turgon king of the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim]." But they said: "What is that to us?" And {Meglin} [Maeglin] answered: "Much is it to you; for if you slay me, be it speedy or slow, ye will lose great tidings concerning the city of Gondolin that your master would rejoice to hear." Then the {Orcs} [Orks] stayed their hands, and said they would give him life if the matters he opened to them seemed to merit that; and {Meglin} [Maeglin] told them of all the fashion of that plain and city, of its walls and their height and thickness, and the valour of its gates; of the host of men at arms who now obeyed Turgon he spake, and the countless hoard of weapons gathered for their equipment, of the engines of war and the venomous fires.*/
/*FG Then the {Orcs} [Orks] were wroth, and having heard these matters were yet for slaying him there and then as one who impudently enlarged the power of his miserable folk to the mockery of the great might and puissance of {Melko} [Morgoth]; but {Meglin} [Maeglin] catching at a straw said: "Think ye not that ye would rather pleasure your master if ye bore to his feet so noble a captive, that he might hear my tidings of himself and judge of their verity?"
Now this seemed good to the {Orcs} [Orks], and they returned from the mountains about Gondolin to the Hills of Iron and the dark halls of {Melko} [Morgoth]; thither they haled {Meglin} [Maeglin] with them, and now was he in a sore dread. But when he knelt before the black throne of {Melko} [Morgoth] in terror of the grimness of the shapes about him, of the wolves that sat beneath that chair and of the adders that twined about its legs, {Melko} [Morgoth] bade him speak. Then [he] told {he} {those tidings, and Melko hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned.}*/ /*Q30 {he purchased his life and freedom by revealing} unto Morgoth the place of Gondolin.*/
Merging of the two accounts. Idril's foreboding is removed here as this is the only occurrence in Q30 and must be taken as a short summary covering the much fuller account in FG given in "The Attack on Gondolin" in a previous post in this thread. Q30 mentions Maeglins's fear of torture only after he is taken to Angband by the Orks, but that is probably from compression, not because JRRT necessarily changed the story. Maeglin would have feared torture both when captured by the Orks and later when brought before Morgoth. Indeed in FG Morgoth, after the agreement is made, again threatens Maelgin with "the torment of the Balrogs" in return for any treachery. The words "he purchased his life and freedom by revealing" are removed here because in the latest account in WH revealing the location of Gondolin is not what preserves Maeglin's life. Morgoth already knows that information. See the next section.

FG-M-07 Morgoth's first answer.
/*WH Morgoth {must answer} [answered] laughing, saying: 'Stale news will buy nothing. I know this already, I am not so easily blinded!' So Maeglin was obliged to offer more − /*Q30 the ways whereby it might be {found and} assailed*/ and to himself undermine resistance in Gondolin.*/
Merger of two accounts: WH note 30 and Q30. The futher arrangement concering Tuor, Eärendil, and Idril is covered in the following section FG.

FG-M-08 Morgoth and Maeglin agree.
/*FG [And] {and} {Melko} [Morgoth] hearkening spake very fair to him, that the insolence of his heart in great measure returned.*/
/*Q30 Great indeed was the joy of Morgoth[.]*/ /*FG Now the end of this was that {Melko} [Morgoth] aided by the cunning of {Meglin} [Maeglin] devised a plan for the overthrow of Gondolin. For this {Meglin} [Maeglin]'s reward was to be {a great captaincy among the Orcs} /*Q30 the lordship of Gondolin, as his vassal*/ /*Q30 when that city should be taken*/ − yet {Melko} [Morgoth] purposed not in his heart to fulfil such a promise − {but} [and] {Tuor and Eärendel should Melko burn, and} [Maeglin was to] /*WH compass the death of Tuor and Eärendil if he could. If he did {he}*/ Idril /*WH would*/ be given to {Meglin} [Maeglin]'s arms − and such promises was that evil one fain to redeem. /*Q30 Lust for Idril and hatred of Tuor led Maeglin the easier to this foul treachery.*/*/
A merging of three accounts: FG, Q30 and WH note 30.

FG-M-09
/*FG Yet as meed of treachery did {Melko} [Morgoth] threaten {Meglin} [Maeglin] with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the {Noldoli} [Noldor] who durst withstand him in anything − and the Eldar have called them {Malkarauki} [Valaroukar]. But the rede that {Meglin} [Maeglin] gave to {Melko} [Morgoth] was that not all the host of the {Orcs} [Orks] nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled {Melko} [Morgoth] to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.*/
Further discussion between Morgoth and Maeglin.

FG-M-10 Maeglin returns.
/*FG Then /*Q30 {Melko} [Morgoth] sent*/ {Meglin} [Maeglin] {was bidden fare home lest at his absence men suspect somewhat} /*Q30 back to Gondolin, lest men should suspect the betrayal, and so that {Meglin} [Maeglin] should aid the assault from within when the hour came*/; but {Melko} [Morgoth] wove about him the spell of bottomless dread, and he had thereafter neither joy nor quiet in his heart. Nonetheless [though] /*Q30 evil was in his heart,*/ he {wore} /*Q30 abode in the halls of the king with*/ a fair mask of good liking and gaiety, so that men said: "{Meglin} [Maeglin] is softened", and he was held in less disfavour; yet Idril feared him the more. Now {Meglin} [Maeglin] said: "I have laboured much and am minded to rest, and to join in the dance and the song and the merrymakings of the folk", and he went no more quarrying stone or ore in the hills: yet in sooth he sought herein to drown his fear and disquiet. A dread possessed him that {Melko} [Morgoth] was ever at hand, and this came of the spell; and he durst never again wander amid the mines lest he again fall in with the {Orcs} [Orks] and be bidden once more to the terrors of the halls of darkness.*/
Merging of two accounts.

Original editing Antoine, prior emendations by Jallanite and the council

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[ October 12, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Maédhros]

FG-TG-08
{and that tale of Isfin and Eöl may not here be told}This will have been told earlier.

In it's own chapter? How earlier.

FG-TG-09
{Less fair was he than most of this goodly folk, swart and of none too kindly mood, so that he won small love, and whispers there were that he had Orc's blood in his veins, but I know not how this could be true.}
I think this should be deleted, though we are without any direct contradiction of it. There is no later indication that Maeglin was 'swart', and certainly there were not rumours that he had Orc's blood!

Isn't that too harsh, to erase all of it.

FG-M-09
/*FG Yet as meed of treachery did {Melko} [Morgoth] threaten {Meglin} [Maeglin] with the torment of the Balrogs. Now these were demons with whips of flame and claws of steel by whom he tormented those of the {Noldoli} [Noldor] who durst withstand him in anything − and the Eldar have called them {Malkarauki} [Valaroukar]. But the rede that {Meglin} [Maeglin] gave to {Melko} [Morgoth] was that not all the host of the {Orcs} [Orks] nor the Balrogs in their fierceness might by assault or siege hope ever to overthrow the walls and gates of Gondolin even if they availed to win unto the plain without. Therefore he counselled {Melko} [Morgoth] to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.*/

Is Mechanical monsters to be addressed here?

In it's own chapter? How earlier.

in the chapter OF MAEGLIN

Is Mechanical monsters to be addressed here?

no there is a special part for Mechanical monsters and another for balrogs

[lindil]

Antoine '3', are you cloning yourself or password problems?

Maedhros the mechanical Monsters and Balrog discussions are currently in pt 4. Which is Huge but can be slit up at least once more when we are done with 1-3 I figure.

[Aiwendil]

Isn't that too harsh, to erase all of it.

I think it's quite inconsistent with the later version. Maeglin is never again described as "swart" and all rumours of "Orc-blood" are lost (I don't see how those rumours could exist anyway, since it is known that his parents were Aredhel and Eol). To me, at any rate, these seem to be features of the primitive account that were done away with in the more consistent, subtle, and sophisticated later versions.

[Maédhros]

FG-TG-01

But Turgon, who knew that Tuor, mortal as he was, had the favour of the Valar, marking his stout glance and the power of his voice sent to him and bade him dwell in Gondolin and be in his favour, and abide even within the royal halls if he would.

This part follows that of FG-TG-01 and I wanted to know if it has been deleted or altered. Why would Turgon bade Tuor to dwell in Gondolin, according to the Law of the King, no one was allowed to leave it once they entered Gondolin.
I would remove the reference to dwell in Gondolin and leave only the reference that he dwelt with him in the royals halls.
FG-M-06 Maeglin is captured.

of the engines of war and the venomous fires.

What exaclty are these engines of war: catapults or something like that and venomous fires? Magic elf fire. Venomous to who?

[Aiwendil]

This part follows that of FG-TG-01 and I wanted to know if it has been deleted or altered. Why would Turgon bade Tuor to dwell in Gondolin, according to the Law of the King, no one was allowed to leave it once they entered Gondolin.
I would remove the reference to dwell in Gondolin and leave only the reference that he dwelt with him in the royals halls.

I don't see a problem with this passage. I see what you're saying: it seems a bit redundant for Turgon to ask Tuor to live in Gondolin when Tuor has to live in Gondolin anyway. Nonetheless, I would keep it. Note a few things:

1. It shows Turgon being polite and respectful to Tuor. Even though Tuor can't now leave, Turgon is doing the amicable thing in asking him to stay rather than ordering it. (Actually, "bidding" is somewhere in between the two, I think.)

2. The words "in favour". Perhaps if Tuor refuses, Turgon will order him to stay; Tuor would be a prisoner of sorts. However, Turgon asks him to remain "in favour" instead.

3. It's fairly obvious that Tuor is not going choose to leave Gondolin. He has absolutely no reason to. His life-long dream has been to find it and live there. So there's no harm in Turgon's requesting that he stay.

4. Turgon did allow Hurin and Huor to leave, though it was bending the law to do so. I think there is a good chance he would have allowed Tuor to leave, if Tuor so chose.

I sure like making lists, don't I?

What exaclty are these engines of war: catapults or something like that and venomous fires? Magic elf fire. Venomous to who?

I don't think this really matters. The text simply says "siege engines" and I see no need for us to look further into it than that. I would speculate that they are catapults, though they could be more along the lines of the trebuchet. The only other siege engines mentioned in the mythology, as far as I can recall, are the catapults and battering ram used by the Orcs at the Pelennor Fields. The Elves of Gondolin may have had more sophisticated engines, though.

[lindil]

1. "I sure like making lists, don't I?"

2. And it makes for a very organized read.

3. Thanks.

I also agree w/ Aiwendil on Tuor being asked to stay, for all of the above reasons.

[lindil]

OK folks, as maedhros has pointed out, we are now turning our focus to part 3.

jallanite did a wonderful job of merging disparate acounts, but it stilll behooves us to go over it carefully and look for any possible mistakes and potential improvements.

Please note also that the Q30 is the basis for much of this section is NOT the QS77/01 [i.e. THe Silmarillion] although, if there is a good reason we can use some of the 77/01. But it was in essence based on Q30 and virtually all of it's variants are due to CJRT's 'stylistic revision ' and editing, and while we may well want to adopt his very changes in a later stylistic phase for now we wnat to build the text form the primary sources as much as possible.

[Aiwendil]

I have reviewed the changes and agree with all of them.

[Aiwendil]

Well, it seems that this section is just about wrapped up. If anyone has any further comments, suggestions, or complaints regarding these changes, please speak up now. I think in a few days we should move on to part 4.

[lindil]

FG-TG-02
{and she was a} [Idril Celebrindal, the] daughter of the king.
Now Tuor learnt many things in ...

... There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to its building and adornment whereat folk travailed yet;


-=-=-=--=-

re: the bolded selection, I am not sure if it has been addressed anywhere else, but I was cross-referencing the proposed changes of here and the private forum version and saw that we seemed to have missed this bit about the 'ages of years', and the 'whereat folk traivaled yet'.

In the first case, the whole chronology had been changed so that Gondolin was built in 38 years, I think, and Tuor arrived after 400 or so years.

And then secondarily, the work still continuing contradicts The Greyt Annals entry ~110/111 for the year 116 wherein it says, Gondolin was full-wrought.

[Aiwendil]

Very good catch, Lindil. I seem to have missed this in my first revision.

I propose:
FG-TG-02.5

There he heard concerning that city of Gondolin and {how unstaying labour through ages of years had not sufficed to} its building and adornment {whereat folk travailed yet}; of the delving of that hidden tunnel he heard, which the folk named the Way of Escape

I think this keeps the meaning relatively intact while excising the outdated bits.

[ February 13, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[lindil]

The revision looks good. Sorry I did not propose one myself, but brain power was waning.

Yours is just right.

I hope to read through all of 3 in this way.
Over the next few days or so. I did not really go back to our source text for sections 1 and 2 because in 1 the changes are rare and in 2 I think the entire text was the proposed changes, but for pt. 3 there are a lot of sections not listed here, that are in our composite ource text.

[lindil]

FG-TG-03
of the guard without ceasing he was told, that was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught of the {Orcs} [Orks] did their stronghold become known.
Now however was the guard of the hills maintained rather by custom than necessity, for the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] had long ago with unimagined toil levelled and cleared and delved all that plain about Amon {Gwareth} [Gwared], so that scarce Gnome or bird or beast or snake could approach but was espied from many leagues off, for among the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] were many whose eyes were keener than the very hawks of Manwë Súlimo Lord of Gods and Elves who dwells upon Taniquetil; and for this reason did they call that vale {Tumladin} [Tumladen] or the valley of smoothness. Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields. Now 'twas said to Tuor that already the whole folk of Gondolin shooting with bows without stay day or night might not expend their hoarded arrows in many years, and that yearly their fear of the {Orcs} [Orks] grew the less for this.

This whole section feels wrong. More specifically, there is not the same sense of vigilance we find in UT as he enters through the gates. There is a boasting that seems out of place for any of the latter elves, and the reference to the gondolindrim guarding the encircling mntns themselves w/ no mention of the eagles except that some had better eyesight!

Not sure about that particular detail, maybe their eyes were better, but the whole ‘boasting’ section I think needs careful consideration and possible/probable pruning.

And then concluding the same section is the prelude to an already deleted concluding run on phrase [ the sentence continues!]

Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a great gift

I imagine, though I don’t recall the beginning of FG-TG-O4 being deleted for the simple fact that the artificers of Gondolin had already made Tuor his gear and left it at Vinyamar.

FG-TG-04

but he carried an axe rather than a sword, and this in the speech of the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] he named Dramborleg, for its buffet stunned and its edge clove all armour.

I propose that we keep the concluding section of FG-TG-O3 and modify it so that the axe that is the gift

“ his most cunning artificers to fashion an axe for Tuor as a great gift,and this in the speech of the [Sindar] he named Dramborleg, for it’s buffet stunned and it’s edge cloved all armor.”

2 points further, I would like to graft on from the Hobbit, a bit about the Gondolin metalsmith’s ‘glowing blue in the presence of Orcs’ metallurical effects. If JRRT went into such detail about the armor we are now replacing with an axe, the least we can do is detail it as much as our principles allow. Any objections?

Also I changed in my bit above speech of the Gondolindrim to ‘speech of the Sindar’ .
This may or may not fly, I would definetly like feedback, but the name of his axe is sindarin now, right? That being so is their Sindarin so special in Gondolin that it gets it’s own designation? If it is, then the original emendation should stand.

And the conlcusion of FG-TG–04

…and the folk of the city rejoiced to see the new light catch the wings of his helm.

Did his original helm in UT have wings?

OK I just read it and it had newly plucked swans feathers no mention of wings. I also erad in WotJ that uncharacteristically JRRT had the BolT FoG in front of him [or recently read] when he did UT Tuor. [ahh… if only he a scribbled a few notes about Balrogs and Dragons…]

Another possibility that would obliterate much of my suggestion above is that we insert a rider stating that new armor was made for Tuor to replace the original, because ‘the skill of the smiths of the city had increased marvelously in the many years of their sojourning therein.’

How is that for faux lost tales-speak?

I like keeping the original armor better and deleting the early reference but keeping the early reference alows for keeping the winged helm, but I suppose we can just eliminate the mentioning on the wings.

FG-TG-05

Now came days when Tuor had dwelt among the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] many years. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter,

Can become:

Now came days when Tuor had dwelt {among the {Gondothlim}[in Gondolin] {many years}[for seven years]. Long had he known and cherished a love for the king's daughter,

-=-

‘many years’ should I think be replaced with as exact a number as we can give it. And after looking in WotJ the number is 7.

According to the War of the Jewels Tale of Years:

they wed in 502 according to the HoM-E XI ToY [p.346]version and Versions D1 and 2 on p. 350.

Earlier in version b [page 346] we read [in blessed detail I might add] “after 7 years’ service Tuor weds Idril of Gondolin”.

This can be inserted into the following sections re: the wedding.

Now the date of his arrival is not mentioned in the ToY, but in the Grey Annals [p. 91] we have Tuor arriving in Gondolin amazingly enough in 495. So the 7 years of working for Turgon can stand. And we also have in version D1/2 of the ToY that Earendil was born the following spring.

For future reference I will note here that the city was destroyed according to the final entry in 510, we may need this for any dates re: Earendil.

We also have in the Grey Annal entry that after Turgon decides against heeding the words of Ulmo “Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake”. If it has not been done so, this would be a nice addition to the earlier mention of Turgon ‘bidding’ him to stay.

So:
495 tuor arrives
502 marriage
503 spring ‘ Earendil Half-Elven’ born
509 “maeglin captured by spies of melkor [Sauron?]”
510 Midsummer. Asssault and sack
511 Exiles reach Havens of Sirion [ named “ New Havens” capitals JRRT], this is a name we could introduce in several later places I think.

This is rather a lot and it needs to all be integrated in before I go on, so…

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

This whole section feels wrong. More specifically, there is not the same sense of vigilance we find in UT as he enters through the gates. There is a boasting that seems out of place for any of the latter elves, and the reference to the gondolindrim guarding the encircling mntns themselves w/ no mention of the eagles except that some had better eyesight!

I disagree in general. I don't think the boasting is out of place at all; there's no reason the exiled Noldor, particularly in Gondolin, could not be a bit arrogant. We certainly have examples of other Elves being arrogant or even bordering on evil - Thingol or the House of Feanor, for example. The absence of any mention of the Gondolindrim guarding the mountains, as well as no mention of the eagles, does seem a bit wrong, though. Perhaps we could insert that from elsewhere.

If you could come up with a proposal for an emendation to this passage, that might make it easier to address the problems.

And then concluding the same section is the prelude to an already deleted concluding run on phrase [ the sentence continues!]

Upon a time the king caused his most cunning artificers to fashion a suit of armour for Tuor as a great gift

I imagine, though I don’t recall the beginning of FG-TG-O4 being deleted for the simple fact that the artificers of Gondolin had already made Tuor his gear and left it at Vinyamar.

You're right. Not deleting the preceding phrase was an error.

I propose that we keep the concluding section of FG-TG-O3 and modify it so that the axe that is the gift

Since it seems that in the original, the armour, helm, shield, and axe are implied all to have been made by the cunning artificers, this is, I think, okay.

2 points further, I would like to graft on from the Hobbit, a bit about the Gondolin metalsmith’s ‘glowing blue in the presence of Orcs’ metallurical effects. If JRRT went into such detail about the armor we are now replacing with an axe, the least we can do is detail it as much as our principles allow. Any objections?

As innocuous as this seems, I'd rather not do it, simply because we don't know for sure that Dramborleg shone in the presence of Orcs. It's possible that this only applied to daggers and swords. Also, I think it would be difficult to find an a good wording without creative writing.

Also I changed in my bit above speech of the Gondolindrim to ‘speech of the Sindar’ .
This may or may not fly, I would definetly like feedback, but the name of his axe is sindarin now, right? That being so is their Sindarin so special in Gondolin that it gets it’s own designation? If it is, then the original emendation should stand.

"The speech of the Sindar" is fine. "Dramborleg" is definitely Sindarin now, and Sindarin is indeed the commonly spoken tongue in Gondolin.

OK I just read it and it had newly plucked swans feathers no mention of wings. I also erad in WotJ that uncharacteristically JRRT had the BolT FoG in front of him [or recently read] when he did UT Tuor.

I think "wings" is fine as a semi-metaphorical way of referring to the feathers.

Another possibility that would obliterate much of my suggestion above is that we insert a rider stating that new armor was made for Tuor to replace the original, because ‘the skill of the smiths of the city had increased marvelously in the many years of their sojourning therein.’

I'd rather not do this. I think from the description of the armour in UT that the intent was simply to move Tuor's gaining of the armour from Gondolin to Vinyamar, not to introduce a second suit of armour.

So I'd rather keep UT as it is and simply delete the crafting of the armour from Gondolin.

‘many years’ should I think be replaced with as exact a number as we can give it. And after looking in WotJ the number is 7.

I'm mildly disinclined toward this, simply because it's stylistic editing. I don't see any particular need for the text to give an exact figure, so why change it?

We also have in the Grey Annal entry that after Turgon decides against heeding the words of Ulmo “Tuor was held in honour, for his kindreds sake”. If it has not been done so, this would be a nice addition to the earlier mention of Turgon ‘bidding’ him to stay.

I agree entirely.

[lindil]

Re: the boasting section: OK I think you are right Aiwendil re: the Noldorin capability to arrogance, I suppose it is more that it is weekly written arrogance [from my pov] that gets me. But we should try and insert the material you suggested [anyone care for a mini project?] re: the eagles and appropriate watch/guards.


If I see no new suggestions within the next few days I will post some soort of proposed emmended text.


Re: the glowing axe, I see your point A. and it is true. The only possible factor that could make an exception is if in the Hobbit [which I do not have with me] there is some specific mention that all of the weapons forged in Gondolin were like this.

RE: 'good wording' If it is so that Hobbit says, 'weapons' so we could use that language straight from the Hobbit IF it fit, So as to avoid 'creative writing' which was never my intention.

There is some line like that I think, but it may only say swords. Anyway I will look it up when I get back home. But it probably is a wash for at least one of the reasons you pointed out. Too bad JRRT did not follow it up in ANY of the revised Silm accounts! Curious sense it does figure in the LotR and is not just 'Hobbit stuff' like the giants hurling boulders.


-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Re: the wings and feathers.

Well, I don't know. I think it says in UT that the feathers were stuck by Tuor in the CREST [i.e. top] of the helm, after they were proffered by the swans who did him homage. And wings would be on the side for certain [ I hope !] otherwise it would be one goofy helm.

I think we are talking about 2 different conceptions that just happen to have bird-connected features.
-=-=-=-=-=-

As for the alternate conception of a 2nd suit of armor, I was just offering an alternative.
In case someone else saw more merit or some benefit in it that I did not.

Making the axe the gift is far simpler and I think more directly connected to the text.

-=-=-=-=-=-=

re: the 'many years'

Well in support of this I would say that FOG had no firm timeline in mind, whereas all of the WotJ material is timed with exceeding accuracy. So we are I think staying true to the later TOY's by inserting it from there.

Also 'many years' seems a bit overstated for 7 years. So that is my main reason to suggest a change. The many seems to be a holdover from the old BoLT chronology that had GOndolin existing for long ages or somesuch. Since it seems anachronistic or at least suspect, better to replace it with a final conceptionof JRRT's that is straight from the TOY in WotJ.

Sorry I did not offer my rational [sp?] along with my proposals in the first place, I will try and make a habit of it [especially as it seems there is still uite a bit of emmending to do for the later FoG material
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ]

I will try on Mon or so to type up suggested emmendations for the above sections.

Any other comments folks?

[Aiwendil]

But we should try and insert the material you suggested [anyone care for a mini project?] re: the eagles and appropriate watch/guards.

I will see about this if I have time later. If anyone else wants to go for it, though, that would be great.

The only possible factor that could make an exception is if in the Hobbit [which I do not have with me] there is some specific mention that all of the weapons forged in Gondolin were like this.

I don't have it on me at the moment either, unfortunately. But I agree that we need specific mention of "all weapons".

Well, I don't know. I think it says in UT that the feathers were stuck by Tuor in the CREST [i.e. top] of the helm, after they were proffered by the swans who did him homage. And wings would be on the side for certain [ I hope !] otherwise it would be one goofy helm.

Very good point.

Making the axe the gift is far simpler and I think more directly connected to the text.

Agreed.

Well in support of this I would say that FOG had no firm timeline in mind, whereas all of the WotJ material is timed with exceeding accuracy. So we are I think staying true to the later TOY's by inserting it from there.

I don't doubt that the Tale of Years is accurate and "canonical". I was just questioning the need to insert an exact date in the text. There is much we could change in the text without violating the canon, but we should only tamper where necessary.

Also 'many years' seems a bit overstated for 7 years. So that is my main reason to suggest a change.

This is a good point that seems to require a bit of thought. I will have to examine the chronology of BoLT a bit more closely. But I don't see why 'many years' must be more than 7.

[Aiwendil]

FG-TG-03

The more I think about this, the less I think that we need to insert any further mention of the vigilance of the guards or of the eagles. The vigilance of the guards is indeed discussed here already. And the protection of the eagles is mentioned just a little bit later in the text. If we are to modify it at all, I suggest:

of the guard without ceasing he was told, that was held there in arms and likewise at certain low places in the encircling mountains, and how watchers dwelt ever vigilant on the highest peaks of that range beside builded beacons ready for the fire; for never did that folk cease to look for an onslaught of the {Orcs} [Orks] did their stronghold become known. And <77no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfillment of his designs.>
Now however was the guard of the hills maintained rather by custom than necessity, for the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] had long ago with unimagined toil levelled and cleared and delved all that plain about Amon {Gwareth} [Gwared], so that scarce Gnome or bird or beast or snake could approach but was espied from many leagues off, for among the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] were many whose eyes were keener than the very hawks of Manwë Súlimo Lord of Gods and Elves who dwells upon Taniquetil; and for this reason did they call that vale {Tumladin} [Tumladen] or the valley of smoothness. Now this great work was finished to their mind, and folk were the busier about the quarrying of metals and the forging of all manner of swords and axes, spears and bills, and the fashioning of coats of mail, byrnies and hauberks, greaves and vambraces, helms and shields. Now 'twas said to Tuor that already the whole folk of Gondolin shooting with bows without stay day or night might not expend their hoarded arrows in many years, and that yearly their fear of the {Orcs} [Orks] grew the less for this.

A simple insertion from the 77.

[ March 29, 2003: Message edited by: Aiwendil ]

[lindil]

Much better. The 77 gets right to the heart of what I was sensing should be communicated re: the Eagles.

[ March 30, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Aiwendil]

Are there any other concerns about changes in this section?

[lindil]

Well, I never made it any farther than where I left off, and there were so many little things in the few paragraphs I did, that I would be shocked if there were not more.

I will try in the next few days to do more...

I have looked on several occasions through everywhere I consider likely for the 'glowing blue due to the pre3sence oc orcs' passage re: sting, but can't find it. Anyone know where it [or any other passages bearing on this ] is?

[Maédhros]

lindil, I have created a thread about Part 3 of the FOG, that I think that the members should see.
As for the blue glow in The Hobbit, I have found:
From The Hobbit, Chapter 4

Then Gandalf lit up his wand. Of course it was Gandalf; but just then they were too busy to ask how he got there. He took out his sword again, and again it flashed in the dark by itself. It burned with a rage that made it gleam if goblins were about; now it was bright as blue flame for delight in the killing of the great lord of the cave. It made no trouble whatever of cutting through the goblin-chains and setting all the prisoners free as quickly as possible. This sword's name was Glamdring the Foe-hammer, if you remember. The goblins just called it Beater, and hated it worse than Biter if possible. Orcrist, too, had been saved; for Gandalf had brought it along as well, snatching it from one of the terrified guards. Gandalf thought of most things; and though he could not do everything, he could do a great deal for friends in a tight comer.

[lindil]

This topic is being continued in this thread.