When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

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When Elves are slain some come back, reborn/reincarnated/re-embodied, but i have not found any information about why some come bavkk. The only elve, there might have been more, that came back as far as I know is Glorfindel of Gondolin later Glorfindel (LoTR). I think I saw references in Morgoth's Ring to this. He was reincarnated after a period of time in The Halls of Mandos. What makes Glorfindel an exception was the fact that he was allowed to return to Middle-earth after he was reincarnated. Why Is this iformation not in The Silmarillion?

(I don't know if this is related to what we are discussing here.) <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[lindil]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

It is indeed one of many issues that must be looked at interms of coming to a new Silm canon[s].
One of the very last things JRRT wrote on was the issue of glorfindel and his reincarnation .
THis writing is in The Peoples of Middle-Earth
[HoME XII] ch.13
In short all elves who are slain then go to the halls of mandos ,there stay is long or short depending on their understanding and harmony w/ their kindred.Some such as feanor will prob not be released till the End.Others such as Finrod and Glorfindel -because of their self-sacrificing righteousness stayed but briefly it seems.JRRT dismissed the idea of Elvish reincarnation to new parents and settled [I believe] on an elf reincarating in a new body generated by the memory of his fea[spirit/soul] of its incarnation.this is essentially the same sort of idea that is held in orthodox forms of Christianity{Tolkiensown Catholic church , the Orthodox Church and the theCoptics} about how the physical body will &quot;reincarnate&quot; in a purified version of one's own Body at the End of Time, no matter when and how one has died.
Elves would usually do this sooner since JRRT concieved of them as having a closer relationship to creation than Men, who were destined to live outside the confines of the world[the gift of Men].
much of this is in Finwe and Miriel and Finrod and Andreth [home vol. X].
I don't believe it was in the silmarillion because CRRT did not include any of the speculative or full scale narrartive's of the later periods of his father's life/writings. Some of JRRT's thoughts on it have been known since the publication of the Letters in 1981?

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[Mithadan]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Lindil got it right on &quot;reincarnation&quot;. If your asking why he returned to Middle Earth , I think that Letters refers to his love of M.E. I been involved in discussions where it has been proposed that he was sent by the Valar, but there is no hard evidence on this point. If your asking when, I don't know, but probably sometime in the Second Age.

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[lindil]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

I recall a postulate [ somewhere in HoME 10-12 !I think the last or final writings section in 12]
that mentioned him coming w/Gandalf which if true would put him at c.1000[?] third age.


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[Gwaihir the Windlord]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

I can perhaps answwer this more clearly <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> .

When an elf dies, his fea (spirit) does not return to the halls of Illuvitar outside the Circles of the World, such as those of Men do. Istead, it travels to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor to await rebirth.
Depending on the life they lived, the amount of time the fea spends in the Halls varies. But eventually, the Valar will release it.
The fea then recreates the physical body out of memory. Though there is a catch; the reborn elf is thereafter bonded to the Undying Lands, never to return to the shores of Middle-Earth.

Glorfindel was the only exception. He died in such great honour in battle with a Balrog (which was also slain), that he was released from the Halls of Mandos quite quickly and was the only elf to be permitted to return to Middle-Earth.

</p>Edited by <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000022>Gwaihir the Windlord</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/redeye.jpg BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 8/7/00 3:37:50 am

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Glorfindel seems also to be the only Elf that just came back from the halls of Mandos as himself, not a child...He remembers everything and has retained all his wisdom and power-gained more perhaps than any other living elf...even Luthien had to become mortal...

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Lutien choosed to become mortal so she and Beren could return to Middle-Eart. Did I get that right? <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[burrahobbit]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Something like that.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Saulotus]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Right section, wrong text. You're quoting from UT. In the section you ARE referring to, Glorfindel arrived in the second age along with the 2 blue wizards (now given new names). Glorfindel was sent to assist Elrond. This is the passage that was mentioned in UT as undecipherable and dating from 1972 (for those without vol. 12).

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[Saulotus]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Whoah! There is NO recorded instance of any elf being reborn as a child. Nada. None. Nil. Zip. Zilch. Zero. They are re-housed, a vast difference between that and re-incarnation. Any instances of re-birth would have to go through Eru for approval, not the Valar.

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[Mithadan]

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Glorfindel

HoME 11 discusses elven &quot;reincarnation&quot;. In what CT believes to be the earlier conception, elves are reborn are children who eventually get their memory &quot;back&quot;. In what CT believes to be the later conception, when elves have served their time in Mandos, either the elves built their own &quot;house&quot; to be re-embodied, or the valar do it.

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[Mithadan]

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Glorfindel

Sorry. HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring.

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Re: Glorfindel

if you forgive me citation, here it is:
HoME v X, p.339, note 3:
&quot;In elvish tradition their re-incarnation was a special permission granted by Eru to Manwe whan Manwe directly consulted Him, at the time of debate concerning Finwe and Miriel... The Valar...were given power to summon, with full authority , all houseless fear of elves to Aman. there thy were given the choice to remain houseless, or (if they wished) to be re-housed in the same form and shape as they had had. Normally they must nonethless remain in Aman&quot;
here we see that re-incarnation depended on the free will of elves themselves, as being the children of Illuvatar, they had this freedom of choice. and free fear were summoned, not brought before Mandos. an answer is here:
&quot;they remained in Aman, simply because they were, when rehoused, again in actual physical bodies, and return to Middle-Earht was... very difficult and perilous.&quot;
so , therefore, Glorfindel must have been rehaused in Aman, and then, in a phisycal body, returned to Hither lands out of his own courage and valiance. that's it.



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[Mithadan]

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Re: Glorfindel

However, the Valar deemed it strange and a result of Morgoth's marring of Arda if an elf chose to remain &quot;houseless&quot;. It was considered against their nature. The controversy arose when Finwe's first wife &quot;chose&quot; to abandon her body due to weariness after Feanor's death. Elves simply weren't supposed to be &quot;dying&quot; and the cause of the disassociation of Fea and Hroa was deemed to be Morgoth.

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[HerenIstarion]

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Re: Glorfindel

concept of rebuilding elf's body is near christian catholic idea about - souls re creating their houses out of their own memory how should that body be

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[HerenIstarion]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

see HoME vX

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

If I am not wrong, I think I read in the Silmarillion that Finrod reincarnated and is with his father Finarfin in Tirion.

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[Mithadan]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Welcome Fingon. You are correct. The Silmarillion states that Finrod walks with his father in Valinor. After his death, he &quot;served his time&quot; in Mandos and was allowed to re-enter his body. Some debate may exist as to whether an elf rebuilds his own body or it is done for him by the Valar.

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[Elenanna]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

I think elves re-incarnate because they are connected to Arda, don't they? <img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek"> i didn't know Fingon re-incarnated, when did he die?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo. <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

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[lindil]

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Fingon?

Do you mean Finrod ?
Fingon's release from the halls of Mandos is never [o my knowledge] indicated.
Finrod's is mentioned I think because he was the most noble of the princes of the Noldor and had very little guilt to atone for in Mandos.
Fingon died in the Battle of Unnumbered tears, killed by Gothmog I believe .


lindil

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[Elenanna]

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Re: Fingon?

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> oops! yes i meant Finrod. But when did Finrod die?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: Fingon?

ne1 know?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[lindil]

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Finrod

Finrod was killed by sauron in his own tower of minas tirith [the original one] in the midst of the Sirion river.
I won't tell you which of the stories in the silmarillion it is - you will just have to read it! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

lindil

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[Elenanna]

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Re: Finrod

oh yes sorry just remembered <img src=smile.gif ALT=""> i have read the silmarilion you know... <img src=rolleyes.gif ALT=":rolleyes">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000112>Elenanna </A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/white_star.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 3/10/01 12:13:58 am

[lindil]

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...

I believe you.<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: ...

ok<img src=roll.gif ALT=":rollin"> in your signature, whe you say those who rebelled against the light who do you mean?

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[lindil]

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rebels

the whole thing is a designed to be evocative of choices we all face, and possibilities we have.

Everyone is given or can 'see' some gradation of 'light and 'dark, but in many [those who never 'knew'] this ability is dormant because mostof us sleepwalk our way through life, not really hearing what is around us, or looking past our own wants and desires to see God's creation as the awe inspiring miracle it is .

So anyone [often myself] who knows what to do , but has turned their back on truth
[in a major way or in dozens of 'small' ways each hour and minute and day]
and that which is good [not to mention holy] is rebelling in some sense.Repentance [greek= metanoia]. to turn around is the solution or medicine if you will.

Numenor as an example did not fall overnight. the peoples hearts became harder and more obtuse over many generations till they had only a vauge feeling of unease about what they were doing .

So in short those who rebel/led are the parts of each [or most] of us , that know better but are not willing to suffer to endure the needed changes.

Hope that helps, my brain is fading fast and hard tonight.



Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowowns and working on his own board Osanwe-Kenta[/i]- 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Elenanna]

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Re: rebels

Ahh... I get it now <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo.</p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Without getting into a debate on canonicity, the Dagor Dagorath prophecy also predicts the return of Feanor after the Last Battle, when he'll surrender the Silmarils to the Valar. AFAIK, he's the only elf (other than Finrod and Glorfindel) mentioned by name as being re-incarnated. Are there any others?

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[lindil]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

Presumably all those still in the Halls of mandos will be released. Others come out as they have come to terms w/ teir mistakes. Feanor will prob. be there till the end. Finrod is said to already be walking w/ his father in the gardens of Lorien , although where that comes from off the top of my head I can not say. I don't think it was a rare event for the Noldor to be released from Mandos some just waited longer than others. All or nearly all would have waited toill the lifting of the ban at the end of the 1st age. I just read that in the Glorfindel section in XII.




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Meneldil]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

IIRC, the reference to Finrod's reincarnation comes from Ch. 19 of the Sil. - which is one of the most canonical portions of the Sil. :-)

I note that the Dagor Dagorath prophecy (and PoME?) say that the Halls of Mandos will be emptied after the last battle. I was wondering if any elves other than Finrod, Glorfindel and Feanor were mentioned by name in the context of reincarnation.

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[lindil]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

After scratching my brain a little harder I have come up w/Finwe and Miriel. Miriel did and is confined to the halls of Vaire[?] to weave the tales of the world an the Noldor till the worlds end.
And Finwe can not. because he as allowed Miriel to go forth in his place.
from Finwe and Miriel [ or Laws and customs] not sure which. in X.





Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Mithadan]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

I am a little confused by the use of the term &quot;reincarnation&quot; in this thread. In Morgoth's Ring, there are essays about how elves return from Mandos after their deaths. An early version suggests they are truly &quot;reincarnated&quot;, reborn as a child only to slowly recover memories of their previous incarnation. JRRT scrapped this view in favor of elves being &quot;re-embodied&quot; into a reconstituted version of their own former hroar (bodies). If I recall, it was not entirely clear whether the reconstituted adult bodies were constructed by the Valar or the elves themselves. Glorfindel and, apparently, Finrod are two examples adverted to in JRRT's works. Presumably most though not all elves who were slain were eventually &quot;re-embodied&quot;. Exceptions, based upon writings in HoME, appear to be Feanor, Finwe (due to Miriel's emergence from Mandos) and possibly Feanor's sons as well as other more egregious &quot;rebels&quot;.

--Mithadan--
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were kindled clear, and waxing bright
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[HerenIstarion]

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Re: When Elves are slain... (Glorfindel)

And to clarify a bit the question of why their names are not known, I must plug in that Silmarillion, and all the History of ME, is supposed to be history of ME - grey-elven history. For the most part re-incarnated elves remained in Valinor (Glorfindel is an exception, and rare one at that), therefore never entered the tales again (if we are to judge from within the stories)

edit
hm it arouses a bit strange feeling to post again in this thread, since my first post on the barrowdowns accured right here, in the same spot <img src=indifferent.gif ALT=":/">

<a href=http://www.geocities.com/gl_century/Heren.html>HerenIstarion</a> </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000111>HerenIst arion</A> at: 3/27/01 10:53:54 am